Expanded literacy: An opion poll

[pinecone]

Well, today I ran into something that I've never thought about before...I was making up a sailor and wanted to have him know both semophore and Morse code.....Hmmm is this a language skill or a KS? Expanding on the thought, if I know russian the default is that I am literate and can write in cyrillic script, even if I write in english I can use cyrillic...that seems to be a no point flavor/realism thing, but what about just knowing an alphabet like elvish? Should Hurricane O'Reily have KS:Morse and KS: Semophore or do I buy expanded literacy for english? I think this also includes codes and cyphers...something I've always purchased as KS's in the past. Thank you for any insights you may have....

[Sociotard]

I think you intended to post a poll, but forgot to. I like the idea of calling these additional literacies. It makes sense for ancient hieroglyph based languages where scholars understand the symbols, but can't know what the words sounded like.

 

Codes, however, I'm not sure on. They would, I think be better represented as a perk (knows secret code). Characters could also probably create their own codes with a cryptography roll. Of course, other characters would have to learn how to understand the new code

[pinecone]

Thanks...what I had in mind was things like a "Book code" or back in my army days me and my fellow Intewrrogators could baffle any listener by mixing two or more languages together and I thought I could probibly do the same with written symbols...after having the conceptual break through of expanded literacys, codes seemed like they Might fit there also so I buy Lang. Code purple instead of KS:Code purple.....I'm still on the fence on that one though....one possable problem is interactions with Linguist most code would likely be one point lang's so that works kind of clunky....

[dugfromthearth]

I would charge 1pt for it and call it special literacy.

 

It only works for languages you already know, but doesn't come free for modern characters.

[farik]

I think semaphore(sp?) and morse code could both be assumed by succesful rolls on appropriate PSs

 

The point value of these "languages" is going to depend on your setting. If you're running a military game for instance they both could be assumed to be everyman skills. A question to ask yourself is

 

"If I require this point expenditure to justify a background, will that detract from people wanting to take the background?"

[zornwil]

I could go with a PS or (to me more likely) KS.

 

Also could imagine doing this is a Cryptography skill if the character learned enough to make the intuitive leap when needed for elemental Cryptography task, allowing him to do the basic, routine semaphore and morse stuff without rolls.

[Farkling]

Semaphore and Morse are standardized artificial languages, are they not? They are used internationally on ships...(or is it boats)?

 

I never thought about this one, though I should have I can see. It's very relevant to a Fantasy setup... hmmm

 

We treated Sign Lnaguage as a language, with no literacy requirement. Two of the characters actually bought it...one out of Batman style knowledge, and the other for his DNPC.

 

I'd list out Morse and Semaphore as Languages...and allow an appropriate PS to read them. They shouldn't need more than 2 pts of Language level, as they are not terribly complex language structures. Esperanto on the other hand, should be treated as a full 3 point language. Though four would be a bit much short of an actual sci-fi campaing I think.

 

The ubiquitous "common" tongue of DnD is no dooubt an Esperanto also, limited to about a 3 pt max flluency. Thieves Cant isn't even that complex, as it states "professionally relevant communication for B&E, theft, marks, etc...", so rank that no higher than a 2 pt language I'd say.

 

My $ 0.02 worth. YMMV

[Solomon]

I think the Language skill should not be used for artificial languages, or at least should be limited to artificial languages that are almost as broad in scope as a natural language (ie Esperanto).

 

I don't feel it's fair to have players pay Character Points just to learn an alphabet. Most alphabets consist of roughly 25 symbols. You can learn them in a few hours at most.

 

I feel most simple codes/alphabets and even complex artificial languages could be considered part of a related skill. You shoudn't need "Language: C++" to write lines of C++ code. That's what "Computer Programming" is for. Of course you can expand the use of the Computer Programming to allow for specialization in different programming languages, much the way Surrvival or Weapon Familiarity work.

 

As for Morse. I think any character with so much as Familiarity in "PS: Sailor", "Marine Navigation" or "System Operations" should be considered to automatically know Morse.

[Solomon]

Originally posted by Farkling

Semaphore and Morse are standardized artificial languages, are they not? They are used internationally on ships...(or is it boats)?

 

Despite having a few "words" or his own (ie S.O.S. being universally known as a request for help), Morse is just an alphabet, not a language. You can send Morse code in English, Italian, Spanish, etc., much like you can write English in Cyrillic.

[zornwil]

Yeah, treating morse or semaphore as a "language" is way overstating their impact and importance, at least in 99% of campaigns, as Solomon points out, they're just alphabets, you have to know the underlying language on your own.

[pinecone]

Thanx for the insights, but as I stated I was considering them as Expanded Literacy rather than a true language...Old morse users have be known to hold conversations in crowded noisey bars by yelling "Dit-Dit_Dash-Dit...etc" at each oter defeating both the noise and being "overheard" likewise with semophore I have to admit that I have NO idea how hard they are to learn though...I have only a vauge remembrance of trying to learn one or both as a boy scout and having very little luck, and I am good at languages, but alphabets...well that seems to be a differant kettle of fish....If I wanted a character to be able to Write English using the Mayan alphabet (and have no clue how to read or speak Mayan) how should I purchase it? As KS:Mayan alphabet or +1 point of expanded literacy for English? Sorry if I sound argumentative, I don't mean to I am just interseted in fully exploring this issue....

[farik]

The trouble is you seem to be looking for an answer that will work all the time while the question itself is very subjective. If code is very important/rare in your campaign then it would be worth the 1pt you suggest. If it's really just an option to add flavor then give the alphabets away with sucessful use of the most appropriate KS or PS.

 

There is no answer that will always satisfy your needs.

[badger3k]

I'd use the ones that are active in tha campaign as a 1 pt special literacy type thing. It can be used in whatever languages you know.

 

The ones that have to be deciphered, or have no current speakers/users, like the mayan script, should be KS. that way, there is a mechanic to see if you get it right (well, one that's more than an Int-roll, anyway). Unless its a very special code, I thing cryptography would cover most codes and ciphers. The ubiquitous Thieves Cant would be a language or KS, rather than a cryptography roll, since it is pretty unique and encompassing.

[pinecone]

Cool...thanx for the input I think I'll go with "Expanded literacy" as a feature from now on but leave codes and cyphers as a KS issue...I'm continueally amazed that even after all these years I can still see new ways to use the Hero system....

[Vondy]

I'd call it a 1 pt literacy and call it a day.

 

Why - it works, the price is right, and it doesn't require much thought.

 

Its basically like the combat codes in the old dark champions book. They were languages and their cost was based on complexity.

[Farkling]

1 pt fluency to use it effortlessly

 

PS/KS to use/decipher when relevant

 

Cryptography is the special case and should inculde functional knowledge of all simple codes simply from the training, falling into the roll category, but including a bonus.

 

A codebreaker would look at an English message written in the Mayan Alphabet and say, "this was written by an amater, only an amteur would consider a foreign language a code"

He probably cannot read it clear without decoding it, but the structure and layout will give it away, since it is a simple substitution code. A copy of the Mayan alphabet would make it a routine exercise.

[pinecone]

yes I am aware of how amazing modern cryp-analalisis is but even an amature would hopefully add in nulls and use stanard groups to conceal the language being used, once the alphabet was recognized as Mayan it would be easy to crack (say about 20 seconds) but till then...I was thinking of odd uses like an archyologist leaving a "secret message" for his students when being kidnapped by drug runners...stuff that would never face real cryptology...but I was interested by thinking that encrypting itself might be a language instead of a KS afterall if I write a message in Cornish (a almost extinct member of the Gaelic family) in Mayan an use nulls and standard groups the cracker will have a very hard time of it till he recognises that the underlying language is Cornish and if I actually use some mayan terminoligy as well a Lot of mainframe time could be consumed....and I was mostly considering an artificial alphbet so they would first solve for the language with statistics then solve for symbols.....thow in some klingon code words and it might take a day or more...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by pinecone

I have NO idea how hard they are to learn though...

 

Well, I'm a licensed amateur radio operator (a ham operator) and learning to send & receive code is part of the process. It's really not all that hard, though learning to send & receive quickly and clearly...that's hard!

 

On the plus side, code will cut through static and still be readable when a voice message hasn't got a prayer...

[jnormandin]

I really think that morse is a KS.

 

Let's assume that a character is highly proficient with english, spanish, italian and morse code. Since morse code is just an alphabet, shouldn't he be able to send morse code in all three languages? Why then, would it make sense to attach it to one specific language?

[pinecone]

I agree that expanded literacy would be a special case I would not expect someone to purcase it seperatly for each lang. after all we used the example of writing english using the cyrillic alphabet as a no cost option for someone who spoke both Russian (default use cyrillic literacy is free in modern) and English(same disclame with latin alphabet) so if Hurricane O'reily buys Morse as a Expanded literacy of english he could then use it to send spanish swear words (the only spanish he knows) or latinized Chinese or whatever using the same logic as the example.

[Toadmaster]

For Morse and Semophore I'd allow it to be bought for 1 pt each but also allow it to be part of appropriate skills if the player can convence the GM that it should be part of the skill / character background (systems ops - communications for Morse, PS- sailor for semophore etc).

 

I haven't really dug to far into 5th for languages but under Danger International I thought that literacy was bought for each language, only the base language got it for free in a literate society (so basically an illetereate socity gets their base language at a 4 points and a literate society gets 5).

 

As far as Cryptography and using other languages for code, I would allow a character to use a mix of languages to make up a "code" but anybody who can read those languages or at least the bulk of them to figure out the message if they were going to try to make a "code" by skipping words etc I'd require them to at least have Fam with Cryptography with a roll being required if they want a chance to fool somebody with that skill but not to make the code unreadable to someone without it.

 

I would not make somebody pay points to know a code, I consider that part of cryptography, most "real" codes require a code book to read them, and they change far to regularly to reqiure points for them. I suppose if somebody really wanted to memorize a code I'd let them spend 1 or 2 points on it but it would not be a regular occurance.

[pinecone]

Master of Toads I see what you're saying I think that most codes should be KS (now I do anyway) but some one who buys it as a literacy say would be lightyears better...the example of Morse was given...any one with a book can puzzle out sendind and receiving...but a real operator can send and receive as fast as he can speak his own language, a major differance and maybe worth enough "cool points" to justify spending a real point to have it.....

[Guest Celt]

I'd go with Steve Long's response about Braille and charge the one point special literacy as suggested above. If you don't speak French then French language messages in Morse or semaphore will likely be unintelligible to you.