Constant vs Continuous

[Hugh Neilson]

23 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

But that's true about Constant as well.  I don't get the resistance and confusion here.  Constant works in a similar way; you can just ignore it and it keeps doing its thing. You use all your limitations to start it, then walk away, and it keeps taking effect, right?  Does that negate all the limitations??

 

OK, now I think I at least get the issue.  I don't agree with your perspective on it, but I get the issue.

 

Starting with a 12d6 Blast, no frills, I can use the Blast at any time.  If I do not use it, nothing happens and I spend no END.  In any phase, I can select any target I want for the Blast, spend END, make an attack roll and, assuming I hit, do damage.  Then it's done until I use it again.

 

Now, let's add Constant.  Same starting point - I can use it whenever I want, but if I hit, it locks on and, as long as I keep pumping END into it, it stays on.  It damages that target, and that target only, every phase.

 

But if I add your new "advantage", I paid +1/4 for precisely nothing.  The power is available to be used whenever I want to use it, just like it was before I applied the advantage.

 

Now, let's tack on some limitations to the basic Blast.  It requires a full minute to kick up (-1 1/2), during which I can do nothing else (-1/4).  While activating, I am at 0 DCV (-1), must Gesture (-1/2) and Incant (-1/2).  This is a super-limited power, dropping the cost to 13 points.  Is it useful in combat?  Not really - it takes a full five turns to make it available and I can do nothing else during that time.

 

Add Constant and it costs 19 points.  What did the extra 6 points get me?  Well, if I ever do manage that full minute of preparation, and hit, I can keep damaging that one target as long as I keep pumping END in.  That is quite advantageous...but if that target is KOd, or I just want to change targets for other reasons, or if I get stunned and the power stops, I need another minute to be able to use the power again.

 

Now, as I understand your proposal, I can instead take "Constantly available" for +1/4 instead of Constant for +1/2.  Now my power costs 16 points.  For 3 points, instead of needing a full minute of uselessness whenever I want to kick the power in, all I need to do is spend a minute gesturing, incanting and concentrating in the shower in the morning, and now the Blast is available any time I want, just like the No Frills blast.  That is, effectively, a -2 3/4 limitation for "has to spend a minute maintaining this power once a day".  You don't have to do it again if you want to change targets, or if you have to shut the power down (since it was never "up" in the first place).

 

23 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

This is clearly not a limitation in any sense of the word, its advantageous.  I don't know why people keep talking about it being a limitation.

 

Applied to my basic 12d6 Blast, it is in no way advantageous.  It changes nothing.  It means I can use the power normally, just like I could before.  Applied to a power with a pile of "before I can use it, I have to..." limitations, it is hugely advantageous, not because it is an Advantage, but because it mitigates the Limitations on the power.  Extra Time is halved when it is only required to activate a power, not to maintain it.  Concentration, Gestures and Incantations are doubled if they must be maintained throughout the use of a constant power.

 

23 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I summon a magical floating sword that I can send out to attack a target, then change the target, or call it back.  It takes me gestures and incantations and such to summon the sword, but once its there, it is ready to use

 

RKA, Physical manifestation, right?  Except... you can't take physical manifestation unless its a constant.  You can't take uncontrolled unless its constant.  And constant just keeps hitting the target over and over until you stop paying END.

 

Why not?  The rules discuss taking Physical Manifestation on "a Power like HKA if it’s defined as creating claws or a weapon — the claws “remain in existence” between Phases even if the character can’t use them."  They then suggest a look at Time Limit, which has already been noted upthread.

 

23 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

So what do you do to simulate this sword?  Build a super complex summon that has desolidification and affects solid?  Telekinesis holding a sword you created with Object Creation?

 

Does this make more sense of what I'm trying to cover here?  Its a concept, with broad possibilities, that I cannot find a clean and obvious way to build with Hero.  There's nothing about Time Limit that makes it do all this stuff.  It really feels like a more limited version of constant - or maybe a variant of constant, since you can pull back the effect or move it to another target.

 

OK, there is something I am unclear on, but we'll come back to that.

 

At its base, I would say RKA, Physical Manifestation.  In a fantasy game, I would likely pop on the usual spellcasting limitations and add "Time Limit", the rules mechanic specifically created for allowing the use of an Instant power to extend outward over longer than the Instant action it would normally require.  If Time Limit + the various limitations equals or exceeds the cost with no limitations and no Time Limit, I would simply drop both the advantage and the limitations, and apply a smaller limitation for the need to re-create the Sword at some later time.  If it's fairly easy to break the sword and require you to use all those limitations to get it back, that limitation could be higher, but I don't see it ever being more than -1, as an OAF could be broken or taken away, and could not be conjured back up again with a minute of inconvenience between combats.  It feels like the ease of recovery makes it more comparable to an OIF, or a variant of Restrainable, so -1/2 instead of Extra Timne, gesture, incant, concentrate, etc.

 

That one unclarity - my model above means that attacking with the sword requires you use an attack action each phase.  If the sword just attacks every phase on its own, without the need for any action on your part, this is starting to seem a lot more like Summoning an Automoton or, alternatively, making it Constant and Uncontrolled, with a cost reduction for the requirement to make an attack roll each phase in order to hit.  I'd look to "Requires a Roll" for guidance in pricing that out.  Here I would not allow Physical Manifestation, instead treating "break the sword" as the "reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off or negate it."

 

But the more the sword can function independent of any Actions on your part, the more it feels like it is a separate character, whether a Follower or a Summoned Automaton.

 

Now, if you are still hooked on a (pretty low cost) advantage for "turn it on and off at will once all conditions to activate are met once" model, tell me how you would apply it to a defensive spell or movement spell?  Start with +10/+10 rDEF with the same 1 minute "casting time", but now once he casts it, he can switch the mystic shield on and off so he can pay no END between combats.

[theinfn8]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:52 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

So, if I buy an attack power with Constant, it behaves differently than non-attack powers; it stays on the target and keeps taking effect each phase without needing a roll.

 

But what if I want to buy an attack power that's lingering and ready to use, instead of instant, but I have to make an attack roll each phase to use?  Like a knife?  Just making it a Focus doesn't change how Constant or Instant works.  As I understand it, making Blast into a Focus means I need the focus to use the blast each time, but I have to use whatever preparatory things to get it to work each time, like Incantations or a skill roll.

 

I want to use the incantatations, skill rolls, etc once, and have the attack available to use each phase, but not take effect automatically each phase.  Like, say, a fist that I power up with cosmic energy and can punch harder with, but takes a phase to get ready, requires concentration and muttering a prayer to the cosmic god Quatloo.

 

Only in alternate form seems to kind of cover this, but its a limitation and is meant for "I change into Quasar" kind of concepts, not prepare and go.

 

Differing modifiers might work I suppose but dang that's pointlessly complicated just for a simple idea

 

Late to the party, but why make it Constant? You could use UOO and the grantor is also the recipient. Build the intended attack power, then apply the desired start-up requirements (advantages and limitations) and apply per the rules. You end up with an attack power that is Constantly available (requires END to maintain), that needs your start-up requirements, but that you can call on at any moment to attack.

[mallet]

Mis-posted to wrong thread

[Simon]

6 hours ago, theinfn8 said:

 

Late to the party, but why make it Constant? You could use UOO and the grantor is also the recipient. Build the intended attack power, then apply the desired start-up requirements (advantages and limitations) and apply per the rules. You end up with an attack power that is Constantly available (requires END to maintain), that needs your start-up requirements, but that you can call on at any moment to attack.

In a word: no.  You're essentially talking about a Differing Modifiers setup.  Per the rules on Differing Modifiers:

 

Quote

Characters should not be allowed to build Usable On Others powers in this fashion as a cheap way of getting that power themselves

 

continuing from the RAW:

Quote

Usable On Others powers are, as the name indicates, primarily intended to be used for (or on) others, not on the character himself.

 

 

[theinfn8]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

In a word: no.  You're essentially talking about a Differing Modifiers setup.  Per the rules on Differing Modifiers:

 

 

continuing from the RAW:

 

 

You are conveniently misrepresenting the RAW. In multiple places it indicates that you can absolutely do this. "...allows the Grantor to grant a power to a single Recipient (though the Recipient can be the Grantor himself)..." (6E1, p. 354). And even if it is "primarily" meant to apply powers to others, primarily is not synonymous with "only". This is an edge case that very well could warrant this particular construct.

 

The argument about trying to get it cheaper than it would normally cost is actually incorrect. The whole point of this setup is not to gain a power for cheaper than it would normally cost. The point is to emulate a specific set of circumstances that the other means presented do not fit the desired effect (by comments of the OP). If a player only wanted this one effect, would it be game breaking to allow that magic sword that can attack on command? I daresay no. Let us examine this.

 

UOO case: Take an 8d6 Blast, Base: 40. Add the UOO for +1/4 we get 50 AP. Tack on some of the example limitations, Incantations (-1/4), Full Phase (-1/2), and Concentration (-1/4), Real Cost: 25. I now have a power I had to spend a full phase to get, need to spend 5 END every phase to keep active, plus I need to use an attack action, make an attack roll, and spend an additional 4 END to use when I want it to hit something.

 

Compare this to the alternative. If I take an 8d6 Blast (40 Base), and add Constant (+1/2) to it I am now at 60 AP. Tack on the same three limitations, Real Cost: 30. I now have a power that I can make an attack roll with once, then spend 6 END to have it attack and hit automatically every phase thereafter and still allow me to make my own additional attack action. I hardly find the difference in power level of these two powers to make 5 CP a "cost savings".

 

I appreciate your thought process on this and pointing out what you felt were inconsistencies in my application of the rules. And thank you for taking the time to respond. It is through logical discourse like this that I am able to learn and grow.

[Duke Bushido]

Quick question, Hugh (forgive my lack of quotes, but the heat this weak combined with working to the move the plant have all come together to give me a dehydration headache that makes picking out the instances I want quite the chore right now):

 

In one part of your excellent post, you refer specifically to using Constant as something of a "fire and forget:"  make a successful attack roll with your Blast, and as long as you keep pumping endurance into it, you keep hitting.

 

Later you state something to the effect of if his Blast is defined as a sword, you would require Constant and Uncontrolled.

 

Can you explain either this, or the relevant piece of information I missed in your post?

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

On 8/15/2021 at 7:58 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

OK, there is something I am unclear on, but we'll come back to that.

 

At its base, I would say RKA, Physical Manifestation.  In a fantasy game, I would likely pop on the usual spellcasting limitations and add "Time Limit", the rules mechanic specifically created for allowing the use of an Instant power to extend outward over longer than the Instant action it would normally require.  If Time Limit + the various limitations equals or exceeds the cost with no limitations and no Time Limit, I would simply drop both the advantage and the limitations, and apply a smaller limitation for the need to re-create the Sword at some later time.  If it's fairly easy to break the sword and require you to use all those limitations to get it back, that limitation could be higher, but I don't see it ever being more than -1, as an OAF could be broken or taken away, and could not be conjured back up again with a minute of inconvenience between combats.  It feels like the ease of recovery makes it more comparable to an OIF, or a variant of Restrainable, so -1/2 instead of Extra Timne, gesture, incant, concentrate, etc.

 

That one unclarity - my model above means that attacking with the sword requires you use an attack action each phase.  If the sword just attacks every phase on its own, without the need for any action on your part, this is starting to seem a lot more like Summoning an Automoton or, alternatively, making it Constant and Uncontrolled, with a cost reduction for the requirement to make an attack roll each phase in order to hit.  I'd look to "Requires a Roll" for guidance in pricing that out.  Here I would not allow Physical Manifestation, instead treating "break the sword" as the "reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off or negate it."

 

But the more the sword can function independent of any Actions on your part, the more it feels like it is a separate character, whether a Follower or a Summoned Automaton.

 

I think this is the element of my post you're addressing, Duke.

 

13 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Quick question, Hugh (forgive my lack of quotes, but the heat this weak combined with working to the move the plant have all come together to give me a dehydration headache that makes picking out the instances I want quite the chore right now):

 

In one part of your excellent post, you refer specifically to using Constant as something of a "fire and forget:"  make a successful attack roll with your Blast, and as long as you keep pumping endurance into it, you keep hitting.

 

Later you state something to the effect of if his Blast is defined as a sword, you would require Constant and Uncontrolled.

 

Can you explain either this, or the relevant piece of information I missed in your post?

 

I was largely envisioning the desired power to be "I conjure up a sword.  It just sits there unless actively used to attack, and at some point it just disappears".  So, basically, all the ability does is let the character use a KA on his phase with an attack action - no real "Constant" involved, other that the non-mechanical English that the sword is constantly physically present and may be used to attack like any other attack as long as it sticks around.

 

But one comment lead me to question whether there was a different power envisioned.  D&D has a "Spiritual Weapon" spell that makes a good example.  I cast the spell, with all the limitations on the power affecting that casting.  A weapon, so the sword, appears, and attacks an opponent.  On my next action (so my next phase, in HeroSpeak) the sword attacks again.  Meanwhile, I can do whatever I want with my actions.  The sword just keeps attacking that one opponent.  I do have to spend some of action, IIRC, to direct the sword to a new target, but I don't need to re-cast the spell -  the sword will stick around, attacking every phase (or not, if I give it no target or tell it to stop) until the fairly short spell duration expires.

 

That sounds a lot more "Constant", as it is operating every phase.  It does not use my Attack Action either.  But, unlike Constant, it has to hit every phase.  It might miss on its first attack, when I cast the spell, then try again next phase and hit.  Just hitting next phase doesn't mean its next attack will hit automatically, though - it will have to roll again on the next phase.  That sounds like it is Uncontrolled (even if I am KOd or killed, the sword will keep attacking away until the spell expires, although it won't change targets), but it's not quite Constant in that it does not keep hitting every phase - it has to roll to hit each phase.

 

So that could be some lesser-costed Constant (removing the "hits automatically" element), a Limitation on the Constant advantage (which may as well just be a reduced advantage), with Uncontrolled tacked on (making it "fire and forget" instead of "fire and keep it going every subsequent phase).  But it could also be a Summoned Automaton that follows my commands and attacks whoever I last designated until I spend the time to direct it to another opponent.  It feels more like the Summon to me, under Hero mechanics, than trying to simulate a flying sword that attacks on its own by a modified Constant, Uncontrolled, Physical Manifestation, Time Limit attack power.

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Hugh!