New Power: Protean

[schir1964]

Thought I would present this again. It's a bit more polished and less complex.

 

I really wish this forum supported tables.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

When I click on the link to the Hero System = Protean Power.pdf I get a warning the sight is not safe.  

[Hugh Neilson]

Without diving too deep, for 20 points I get Desolid, Half END, which neither reduces damage nor prevents interaction with the solid world.  That seems reasonable for a starting point.

 

If I tack on a -2 Viscosity and -2 Nonpliability limitation I get a character who can wriggle through a subfloor or utility wall space, perhaps a SuperSkill for a Contortionist character.  Can a character escape ropes and other bonds with this power?  If so, 4 points seems like it makes Contortionist a pretty useless skill.

[Greywind]

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

When I click on the link to the Hero System = Protean Power.pdf I get a warning the sight is not safe.  

 

That seems to be an ongoing thing lately with board downloads.

[schir1964]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Without diving too deep, for 20 points I get Desolid, Half END, which neither reduces damage nor prevents interaction with the solid world.  That seems reasonable for a starting point.

 

If I tack on a -2 Viscosity and -2 Nonpliability limitation I get a character who can wriggle through a subfloor or utility wall space, perhaps a SuperSkill for a Contortionist character.  Can a character escape ropes and other bonds with this power?  If so, 4 points seems like it makes Contortionist a pretty useless skill.

Yeah, we kind of hashed this out a couple of years ago in another thread. This version of Protean was the result.

 

I presume you mean Entangle with SFX of Ropes/Hand Cuff/Zip Ties.

 

Well I guess it depends on what SFX you are trying build with the Protean power.

If you can turn Gaseous/Liquid then the bonds wouldn't be of much use (reasoning from SFX interaction).

 

However, if you are Super Stretch Armstrong it becomes an interesting question of which Power trumps the other.

If we take Protean out of the picture for a second and just look at existing powers, such as Stretching or Shrinking, is there precedent where the Entangle is negated by Stretching or Shrinking (based on SFX)?

 

I think the answer to this would be applicable to Protean as well.

 

And if it is just a matter of being too cheap that can be remedied easily enough by adjusting the limitation values. A -2 Limitation may be too high for that level.

 

 

 

 

[schir1964]

After reading up on Entangle (5th Edition) and how it interacts with certain other powers (Teleportation/Desolid) I've updated the Protean power to clarify how it interacts with Entangle. Also modified the the values of the Nonpliability limitation.

[unclevlad]

Forcing the Entangle to take an advantage against a rare power is a pain.  It's fine with Desolid which is intended to ignore everything physical.

 

I'm also not enamored of building this with the graduated limitations approach.  I'd rather build a power that fundamentally gets more effective, a la APG's alternate desolid.  The power you've got always costs 2 END, for example, even if it's cut back in terms of real cost.  Limitations combine poorly;  they have serious diminishing returns issues.  And things like the porosity?  That's just a hassle for the GM.  It's ONLY a concept for this power, as opposed to, for example, the BODY or DEF of an obstacle.  This power is just complicating my life as a GM.

[schir1964]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Forcing the Entangle to take an advantage against a rare power is a pain.  It's fine with Desolid which is intended to ignore everything physical.

 

I'm also not enamored of building this with the graduated limitations approach.  I'd rather build a power that fundamentally gets more effective, a la APG's alternate desolid.  The power you've got always costs 2 END, for example, even if it's cut back in terms of real cost.  Limitations combine poorly;  they have serious diminishing returns issues.  And things like the porosity?  That's just a hassle for the GM.  It's ONLY a concept for this power, as opposed to, for example, the BODY or DEF of an obstacle.  This power is just complicating my life as a GM.

I tried this as an Adder, as an Advantage, and all other contortions. This version seems less complex than anything else. Not as flexible as others though. I'll give it some thought. The Porosity was listed because there seems to be real difference between someone like Mr Fantastic and the Sandman. But maybe there isn't or shouldn't be mechanicwise.

[unclevlad]

Mr. Fantastic has Stretching, and LOTS of it.  That carries with it the ability to pass through small openings, per the power.  Sandman has some form of Desolid, plus Stretching IIRC.  He's probably something like APG alternate Desolid, about 3-4 levels, plus DI (to fix the the mass alteration and additional KB built into the APG alternate DI...and perhaps then some more, as I think he's heavier than normal).  It's messy in that they're both Always On, and the suggested approach is to simply tweak the stat blocks.  The simplest way to handle passing through the tiny spaces would then be Double Jointed (duh) along with a big Contortionist bonus. OR, as noted, just build this with alternate Desolid with Can't Move Through Solid Objects, and DI and make em Always On and have done with it.  That won't be cheap.  Alternate Desolid is 5 points per level;  DI is 4.  Always On requires 0 END and Persistent.  That also means they can't be mutually linked...and that nothing else should be linkable *to* them.  Works out to 42 points for +20 STR, +8 normal PD and ED, plus the mobility aspects.  So probably a pretty good deal but nothing earthshaking.  

 

Mind, I'm not super crazy about doing it this way;  APG Desolid has too many secondary effects (mass, KB) and a badly defined major aspect (the Def of the material is irrelevant).  But that's because its upper end must be equivalent to Desolid;  that's exceptionally constraining to turn into a scaling power.

[schir1964]

14 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Mr. Fantastic has Stretching, and LOTS of it.  That carries with it the ability to pass through small openings, per the power.  Sandman has some form of Desolid, plus Stretching IIRC.  He's probably something like APG alternate Desolid, about 3-4 levels, plus DI (to fix the the mass alteration and additional KB built into the APG alternate DI...and perhaps then some more, as I think he's heavier than normal).  It's messy in that they're both Always On, and the suggested approach is to simply tweak the stat blocks.  The simplest way to handle passing through the tiny spaces would then be Double Jointed (duh) along with a big Contortionist bonus. OR, as noted, just build this with alternate Desolid with Can't Move Through Solid Objects, and DI and make em Always On and have done with it.  That won't be cheap.  Alternate Desolid is 5 points per level;  DI is 4.  Always On requires 0 END and Persistent.  That also means they can't be mutually linked...and that nothing else should be linkable *to* them.  Works out to 42 points for +20 STR, +8 normal PD and ED, plus the mobility aspects.  So probably a pretty good deal but nothing earthshaking.  

 

Mind, I'm not super crazy about doing it this way;  APG Desolid has too many secondary effects (mass, KB) and a badly defined major aspect (the Def of the material is irrelevant).  But that's because its upper end must be equivalent to Desolid;  that's exceptionally constraining to turn into a scaling power.

Interesting. In 5th Edition it states that Stretching may not give the ability to squeeze under doors and the like. Must have been a change for 6th Edition.

 

Never seen Alternate Desolid. But my goal was to find a fairly simple (less complex) solution that granted the movement benefits that are associated with the common trope of Gaseous/Liquid/Amorphous/Rubbery types of SFX. 

I'm thinking there might be an even simpler way perhaps that builds up as you've suggested. I'm still cogitating.

[unclevlad]

Mmm...yeah, that's true.  The "double one dimension to halve another" is an adder in 6E;  it doesn't exist in 5E.  And yeah, in 5E, Stretching is obscenely expensive for what you get from it.  Personally, I'd rather use 6E as a basis;  I can trim out the excessively fiddly aspects easier.  With 5E...I'm NOT a fan of figured characteristics;  ECs are good in principle, but can just be an excuse in practice.  Several powers are IMO *very* poorly priced.  6E VPPs separate pool size and control cost, making them far more versatile;  5E's VPPs are fine for some things, but terrible for broad, general use (like a mage).

 

Of course, some of this is one of my favorite builds hits all the bad spots in 5E.   Extra Limbs;  Stretching, only with Extra Limbs;  +STR, only with Extra Limbs.  So "hand to hand" but with nice reach.  It allows for an HTH type with lots of flair.  (If you have HSMA, it screams for Qwan Ki Do.)  But more of it is that 5E, due to the influence of figured characteristics, is implicitly biased to Characteristic-heavy characters.  6E isn't perfect, but it mostly avoids that.

[unclevlad]

Sudden thought as I'm finishing the dinner prep.

 

We often get hung up on the power names as labels, whereas what matters is the mechanics.

 

You want an ability to bypass non-solid obstacles by making yourself small enough to slip through the gaps.

 

Small enough.

 

Shrinking, with the limitations of Instant, and No Growth Momentum.  I'd probably allow NGM in 5E because Shrinking is very expensive considering the big KB drawback.  The SFX is diffusing your body to pass through things.  Might not get you through a fine-mesh screen but it allows bypassing a lot of obstacles, and it's scaling in a positive manner.  The SFX can be stretchiness, or Sandman's sand-cloud ability.  At higher levels, turn to water or gas temporarily.

And hey, in 5E, it'd fit into an EC.....<ducks and runs>

[schir1964]

Well, I plan to go with 6th Edition. Just haven't bought it yet so it could be there's a better solution with existing powers.

It's just that I've hashed this out before with all sorts of ways using different powers but all felt like try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Sounds like 6th Edition Stretching has covered some of the gap.

[unclevlad]

Another consideration would be to start from a Tunneling basis, but what this should cost is ambiguous because skill levels in Contortionist handles most things.  Last para in the 6E power description says Contortionist can be used to escape from a collapsed mine shaft.  So where does the semi-normal process of contortionist end, and one needs something clearly and dramatically supernatural to get through an obstacle?  And as was pointed out, there's a blanket power, Desolid, at the other end, that gets you through almost any obstacle, barring particular SFX.  So the window for this power is kinda small.

[schir1964]

Perhaps it is for 6th Edition.

 

And believe it or not I did try to use 5th Edition Tunneling as a basis for Protean. (8^D)

[Grailknight]

Also look into 6th Edition Shape Shift.  Especially with the "Any Shape" Advantage.