Partly Invisible

[steriaca]

There is a thread and the original poster wants to decide if he wants to say make his right hand visable by choice if he desides to become invisible. And what advantage or adder could allow him to do that if he wishes. We say you can already do it without using an adder or advantage. So, what is the official word on this?

[Simon]

If the GM decides that said ability will have no impact on the story/campaign: 0 points.

 

Otherwise: Shape Shift, Sight Group only. 8-13 points depending on the definition of the Power.

[Simon]

As I think about this, it's not appropriate for the Rules Question forum, so I'm moving it.

 

Fundamentally, you're talking about changing/adding to the rules...which is perfectly fine. How you make the change/addition is entirely based on how the ability will function in your campaign.  If it doesn't provide the character with any advantages (i.e. the GM says that you _can_ do it, but it's not going to matter or affect the story in any way), then it shouldn't cost any points.  If the character will gain some advantage from the ability to have only part of his body visible then it should be built from the effect that the ability will have -- Shape Shift for Sight Group is the clearest example of the effect, but that's really dependent on the game/GM.

[steriaca]

5 hours ago, Simon said:

As I think about this, it's not appropriate for the Rules Question forum, so I'm moving it.

 

Fundamentally, you're talking about changing/adding to the rules...which is perfectly fine. How you make the change/addition is entirely based on how the ability will function in your campaign.  If it doesn't provide the character with any advantages (i.e. the GM says that you _can_ do it, but it's not going to matter or affect the story in any way), then it shouldn't cost any points.  If the character will gain some advantage from the ability to have only part of his body visible then it should be built from the effect that the ability will have -- Shape Shift for Sight Group is the clearest example of the effect, but that's really dependent on the game/GM.

Sounds good, but it can also be a special effect for +PRE, Attack Only power. Especially to do the Phantom Rider's trick of wrapping most of his body with his reversible cloak in almost complete darkness to be a glow in the dark "ghost head" or "ghost hand". Booga booga.

[Grailknight]

You answered your own question there.

 

If it's an SFX for + PRE, then the Power you need to buy is PRE.

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

You answered your own question there.

 

If it's an SFX for + PRE, then the Power you need to buy is PRE.

Exactly.

Reason from effect.

It's not Invisibility, since the entire point is that the character (or a portion therein) can be seen...so determine the effect that you're after and go from there. If it's the appearance (a seemingly disembodied appendage wandering around) with no real combat effect other than potential PRE bonuses for clever use of said appearance, then Shave Shift vs Sight Group (only) with PRE bonuses applied based on specific circumstance and action. If it's a general bonus to PRE regardless of action or surrounding circumstance, then purchase PRE.

[Simon]

For readers of Dalglish's Shadowdance series, you could model the cloak dance as a similar SFX -- only the character's head is truly "seen" with everything else being hidden and actively misled within the swirling cloaks.  That's still not Invisibility -- it's a combat bonus (or group of bonuses) which may be similar to those derived from Invisibility, but not entirely.  The character will show up on any video surveillance, if anything is easier to see/pick out in a crowd, and can be targeted by all normal targeting senses, but they are much harder to hit due to the way they move...and may gain OCV bonuses based on attacking from surprising angles.  Best way to model that? Martial Maneuvers.

[steriaca]

Well, the original thread the original poster wanted advice on making it an advantage on Invisibility, or an adder. He probably came from another RPG which have powers set in stone and doesn't take into account special effects and everything needs to be accounted for. There is a lot of stuff you could do with "Invisibility" as a special effect and not actually buying it as a power 

 

I remember a character in a game I was in called Wrath. He has Desolification with the spec

special effect that he becomes mostly invisible with only his skeleton visable. I believe he also has a bonus to PRE to PRE Attack linked to Desolification ("booga booga I'm a ghost").

 

Once I played a Telekinetic character called Wind Blade who doesn't actually have the power of Telekinesis. Well, she did have a Mystery Power also...

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Well, the original thread the original poster wanted advice on making it an advantage on Invisibility, or an adder. He probably came from another RPG which have powers set in stone and doesn't take into account special effects and everything needs to be accounted for. There is a lot of stuff you could do with "Invisibility" as a special effect and not actually buying it as a power 

 

I remember a character in a game I was in called Wrath. He has Desolification with the spec

special effect that he becomes mostly invisible with only his skeleton visable. I believe he also has a bonus to PRE to PRE Attack linked to Desolification ("booga booga I'm a ghost").

 

Once I played a Telekinetic character called Wind Blade who doesn't actually have the power of Telekinesis. Well, she did have a Mystery Power also...

 

Cripes, dude, NO.  You aren't barking up the wrong tree here, you're in the wrong freaking forest.  Especially when you absolutely show you have no idea of the issue.

[Simon]

Careful...

[steriaca]

It's all about special effects. "Invisibility" is a special effect. "Duplication" is a special effect. While the special effect includes the named power, that isn't the be all that ends all. You don't actually need to have the named power to have powers with that special effect.

 

And maybe I am barking up the wrong tree about the original poster and his question. But it seems to be a rookie mistake, prehaps from playing other systems and not being versed in Hero, of not thinking about everything as 'special effects'. I did not mean to insult, but that is a fact for people who come to Hero from other games. Especially class and level games.

 

Again, no insult is intended. It took me a while to figure things out myself as a teen. Forcently I gamed with a few master players in Hero 4ed.

 

I wouldn't call myself a master player anymore...two new editions and years of not really sitting down and roleplay with others face to face dull my skills. I apologize if I offend.

[Grailknight]

13 hours ago, steriaca said:

It's all about special effects. "Invisibility" is a special effect. "Duplication" is a special effect. While the special effect includes the named power, that isn't the be all that ends all. You don't actually need to have the named power to have powers with that special effect.

 

And maybe I am barking up the wrong tree about the original poster and his question. But it seems to be a rookie mistake, prehaps from playing other systems and not being versed in Hero, of not thinking about everything as 'special effects'. I did not mean to insult, but that is a fact for people who come to Hero from other games. Especially class and level games.

 

Again, no insult is intended. It took me a while to figure things out myself as a teen. Forcently I gamed with a few master players in Hero 4ed.

 

I wouldn't call myself a master player anymore...two new editions and years of not really sitting down and roleplay with others face to face dull my skills. I apologize if I offend.

 

No, Invisibility and Duplication are Powers. There have a set effect in the rules. SFX are the non-rule descriptions of said Powers.

 

So you can say that one Invisibility is "moving too fast too see(maybe with a blur streak fringe) and another is being transparent to light and another is being slightly out of time-synch with the rest of the world. All are valid SFX but in game terms all are Invisibility. You don't have to have super-speed, or light or time Powers other than that Invisibility though it would be strange not to share that SFX.

 

Determine your Powers and unless they're really really out there, your SFX are just wrapping on the candy.(Subject to GM approval of course)

[Simon]

I think you and steriaca are talking past each other.  Yes, Invisibility and Duplication are Powers.  But invisibility and duplication (note the lack of capitals) can also be SFX.  It is up to the player to define what they're after well enough to know the difference between the two.

 

Someone who is invisible except for their head is not Invisible -- they can still be seen, located, etc. They gain some advantages (harder to hit, bonuses to hitting others, etc.) but not necessarily to the extent of someone with the Invisibility Power. Take it to a different extreme -- think Chrysalis from early Wild Cards books.  Her skin was transparent (i.e. invisible)...as was various muscle and tissue to differing extents.  Did she have the Invisibility Power?  Heck no.  She gained exactly none of the advantages of that Power.  Did she have Striking Appearance?  Absolutely.  

 

Model from effect.

[steriaca]

Simon said what I was trying to say better. Yes, those ARE powers.  There in the books. They have the effects that they have. But there can be a bunch of little powers which can be under special effects also be put under that label also.

 

Invisibility. 

1 ) The Invisibility power itself.

2 ) +PRE, Attack Only.

3 ) Shapeshift.

4 ) Transform (visable object to invisible object).

5 ) Detect Invisible.

6 ) X-Ray Vision. 

7 ) Transform (invisible object to visable object).

 

Thoes are just a short list of powers one could justify under "related to being and or controlling Invisibility". Some involve turning part of himself invisible. Others involve being so familiar with the "invisible world" to tell when others are invisible. Still others can give the ability to others or to take the ability away temporarily. You can expand the list easily.

 

Keep in mind that most "advance uses" of a power's special effects usually come over time. No need to buy everything associated with a power now. There is time to buy them with experience points later.

[unclevlad]

You can model from effect, if you want a narrow effect...but you can also define a capability as part of the power, and use that and the situation to determine what it gives, in that context.  That's the flexible approach...IF it's possible in the first place.  

[Simon]

Hence my initial statement about the ability having no impact on the story/campaign -- if it's just a silly thing to do for flavor with an ability (e.g. "Ooooh....I'm a spooky middle finger floating in the air...") that you're not actually going to benefit from, sure just call it part of the character's Invisibility Power -- no need to purchase it.  Are you technically easier to hit in a fight than if you were fully invisible? Sure...but it may not be worth figuring that out if you're not going to actually do anything or gain any benefit from that "ability", so just go with Invisibility and say that sure...you can turn parts visible if you choose.  

 

But if you want it to have an effect, then the system really does work best when you model from that effect.  I've given plenty of examples that have the effect of all but part of a character's body being essentially invisible, which are best modeled from Powers/abilities other than Invisibility.  Maybe the character also has Invisibility, if they want that effect as well....but if they want the effect of the cloak dance...or invisible skin...or invisible arms, they need abilities other than Invisibility.

[unclevlad]

My original points were:

a)  I do expect some benefits, at times

b)  I don't know for sure what form they'll take yet.  Defining a specific effect limits what this can do, to that effect.  That's backwards from what I'm trying to do.  

 

[Simon]

If you're talking about a random moment where an otherwise silly little side effect of a character's Invisibility (the ability to turn it off for only a portion of their body) just happens to make sense and fit into the story, then great -- that's the whole point of fully defining your abilities, their effects, and the character's control over it.  It's a GM decision whether it benefits at any given time, largely based on whether or not it advances the story in a positive manner.  The player should have zero expectations of it having any impact in general unless they define the effect  and build it appropriately.  

 

A different way of saying/looking at it: 

If you want it to just be background and something that the GM can use as they see fit to advance story or push a narrative, then just have it be part of the character's Invisibility Power.

 

If you want it to be something that the player can use as they see fit as part of their contribution to the story/campaign, then you need to define the effect and build it appropriately.  No different from a player with a super-strong character thinking that they should be able to smash the ground hard enough to create a shockwave that ripples outwards and knocks people off of their feet -- if you've bought it, great!  Have at it.  If you haven't purchased that ability, it's something that the GM may allow on a discrete basis based solely on their interpretation of the current situation/story...or say that it won't work, but is definitely something that the player should look into purchasing for the character going forward.