New GM with serious dilema

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Kolava

Alright, thanks for all the input. By far the most useful was the reminder about the genre, and how characters really shouldn't want to keep foci (my players just finished a D&D campaign so they are still in a "kill everything that moves and steal its loot" mindset)

 

I was wondering, though, about more powerful foci. An AK can run out of ammo or be illegal, but what about Dr Icicle's freeze ring? What character wouldn't want to just slip on that ring and keep it handy for when it's needed? Sure, a GM could pull the "it corrupts you" routine, but it's sort of hard when the ring doesn't offer generic "power", but a narrow element.

 

Maybe that wasn't the best example, but I'm trying to make a point. Looting is something that should, for the most part, be left behind in D&D. How can I make this point stick, though, when logic flies in the face of it every ten minutes during a game? Can't I introduce a single NPC with focused powers without having to account for the fate of each foci? How can I expect every character to ignore a chance to equip themselves with what will obviously give them an advantage?

 

As Caris said, this stuff breaks without the care and feeding of its originator, typically. You can adopt a number of pseudo-science explanations ("tuned to his biology", "underneath the science, his latent mental powers kept it running", etc.), but at the end of the day you're entirely welcome - heck I'd say encouraged in my book - to just say to your players, "I want this to be like a comic book. That means you can't keep all this stuff you got from bad guys and use it as you please - unless you pay points to reflect your character's growth. Besides, I want this game to be balanced."

 

Getting outside the game and talking about it is fine - it can be one of the most helpful things to your players.

 

Also, it really shouldn't be so problematic that they can't arm up with everything. If they are powerful enough they shouldn't be so under siege, or feel that way, that they have to be armed to the teeth. I bet one problem your players are having is getting over the mortality of a D&D/fantasy campaign; too often those are campaigns where you are VERY likely to die if you do the wrong thing. Super-heroics don't work that way. You should be, genre-wise, very unlikely to die, at least up against anything short of a massively major threat, a big climax.

 

May I suggest one way to reorient them is to run a few adventures demonstrating just how powerful they are and the way the world typically works? Let them have it easy for a while - DO enforce genre conventions, but give them some breathing space to feel like superheroes. Let them save people against lower-end threats. Let them get some praise in the "right quarters" of your world. Have some old-timers talk to them - making it clear that old heroes never die in the deathtrap.

[Dr. Anomaly]

As the rules remind us, you don't have to buy a WF for any weapon you purchased with points. If you didn't purchase it with points, you need a WF in order to use it without penalties.

 

If a PC takes Dr. Icicle's Freeze Ring from the Good (Bad?) Doctor , and expect to use it without penalty, what are the chances they've already bought a Weapon Familiarity to allow them to use it properly?

 

If they seem so dead-set on keeping it that they actually purchase a WF with it...you can let them keep it (after all, they spent points on the WF) but the item is now in essence a focus bought with the Independent limitation -- if it breaks / runs out of power / is stolen, they can't just get it back or buy/build a new one. The first time that happens, and they realize they don't get a refund for the points they spent on a WF for that one-of-a-kind item, they'll change their style of play...

[Catseye]

On the simple side...

 

When i ran champs my rule was pretty simple.

 

You can pick up anything and try to use it during the adventure. I may make you make a skill roll depending on how unusual it is and/or give you penalties to hit with it.

 

If you want to keep it after the end of that adventure you MUST pay the full points to build it. Otehrwise it goes in the super-duper ultra-locked unbreakable trophy case.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Kolava

I was wondering, though, about more powerful foci. An AK can run out of ammo or be illegal, but what about Dr Icicle's freeze ring? What character wouldn't want to just slip on that ring and keep it handy for when it's needed?

 

Lots of good stuff already posted. Let's consider another approach.

 

You didn't pay points for the Freeze Ring, and you haven't taken a course on using it, so you should have (at least) the minue 3 Nonproficiency Penalty. Take 3 off your OCV, please.

 

Now, you also lack the Science: Cryonics skill, which Dr. Icicle likely has (ie he can maintain the thing). Just make up a 0 point "dependence" that gradually weakens the ring. Perhaps it's dependent on daily (or even weekly) maintenance which includes making a Cryonics roll.

 

Finally, since you didn't pay the points, you didn't get the free "operate Freeze Ring" skill. You need to make an 8- "everyman" skill each time you want to use the ring. Failure carries side effects. Dr. Icicle didn't get the limitation - he paid points for the ring, so he has a 25- "Operate Freeze Ring" skill. He's not limited.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that, unless it's independent or Unique, Dr. Icicle can eventually whip himself up another Freeze Ring. After all, he paid the points.

[Outsider]

I always used to tell my players "If you can do it, they can do it."

 

If "normal" equipment is not going to cost character points, villians who summon or have agent armies are loving it.

 

Zombies in Heavy Kevlar and armed with AK-47s become a heck of a lot cheaper, pointwise!

[Rebar]

All amazing suggestions, and I can't really add anything new, except to reiterate that the "real weapon" aspect is very useful - and very in-genre at the same time.

 

The first time a hero is in a fix and his newly acquired AK-47 jams - it'll go out the window. The first time the Hobnobbing Goblin's Smurfboard runs out of fuel at 200 ft, the hero will switch to more reliable transportation (assuming he survives).

 

Many modern day cop heros won't even use standard-issue semi-automatic pistols. You'll see them with six-shooters - because they can trust them not to jam. Unreliable equipment gets you a lot of dead.

[Rebar]

("Otherwise it goes in the super-duper ultra-locked unbreakable trophy case.")

 

"...where it will be studied by Top Men."

 

"Who?"

 

"Top.

Men."

[Rebar]

Summary

 

I think I've managed to summarize all answers:

 

Negotiate

- Talk to players about genre compliance (heros don’t pick up weapons)

Play it within game

- arrange weapons to break or get lost or whatever

- allies of foe will come looking

- weapons are under jurisdiction of law – as evidence or otherwise

- heros will acquire a rep from public, NPCs, cops and villains

- turn it against them – plant a bug/tracking/boobytrap/explosive device in it

Live with it

- let em pick up guns So what? Guns are everywhere anyway. And that means the baddies will have them too. All that this does is raise the bar of “normal†combat

- ask the players (rhetorically) why store-bought weapons are more powerful than their own attacks

Enforce existing optional rules

- Cannot use weapon without appropriate weapon familiarity

- Weapon might be a personal focus, can’t be used by anyone else

- Weapons may have charges

- Wealth is not a substitute for spending character points

- Real weapons have many flaws: they require maintenance, they are unreliable, they might have lousy OCV/damage

- Heros must pay points for all powers used more than X times

- Extract the point-costs from their XP

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Outsider

I always used to tell my players "If you can do it, they can do it."

 

If "normal" equipment is not going to cost character points, villians who summon or have agent armies are loving it.

 

Zombies in Heavy Kevlar and armed with AK-47s become a heck of a lot cheaper, pointwise!

 

That's letting them off easy. How about a dozen zombies in those stolen backup suits of Steel Man's armor?

[Outsider]

I was just looking at "normal" equipment as opposed to super foci.

 

The same reasoning stands, of course...

[zornwil]

Re: Summary

 

Originally posted by Rebar

I think I've managed to summarize all answers:

 

Negotiate

- Talk to players about genre compliance (heros don’t pick up weapons)

Play it within game

- arrange weapons to break or get lost or whatever

- allies of foe will come looking

- weapons are under jurisdiction of law – as evidence or otherwise

- heros will acquire a rep from public, NPCs, cops and villains

- turn it against them – plant a bug/tracking/boobytrap/explosive device in it

Live with it

- let em pick up guns So what? Guns are everywhere anyway. And that means the baddies will have them too. All that this does is raise the bar of “normal†combat

- ask the players (rhetorically) why store-bought weapons are more powerful than their own attacks

Enforce existing optional rules

- Cannot use weapon without appropriate weapon familiarity

- Weapon might be a personal focus, can’t be used by anyone else

- Weapons may have charges

- Wealth is not a substitute for spending character points

- Real weapons have many flaws: they require maintenance, they are unreliable, they might have lousy OCV/damage

- Heros must pay points for all powers used more than X times

- Extract the point-costs from their XP

 

That's very nice of you Reebar, and interesting to see collected. Thanks.

[Gary]

Do what I do. Anytime someone is into "deficit spending" for any reason, I give them as many d6's of Unluck as is necessary to balance them. If a player grabs a 40 real point gadget and uses it for more than one story arc without paying for it, he's getting 8d6 Unluck until he buys it off.

[Rebar]

sig lines

 

."The difference between kinky and perverted is as follows:

Kinky is with a feather. Perverted is with the chicken"

 

This has been around for at least 20 years and has morphed somwhat. The original:

What is the difference between erotic and kinky?

Erotic is tickling your partner with a feather.

Kinky is using the whole chicken.

[Southern Cross]

Oh Gary,just adding Unluck to a character who hasn't paid points for a gadget is so obvious and implausible.Here are are a few other suggestions:

(1)Hunteds (Everybody wants the gadget in question.This works best if the gadget is one of a kind).

(2)Susceptibilities (this works best withexperimental gadgets.which may notprotect the user adequately)

(3)Dependencies (either the user is somehow addicted to the gadget or the gadget keeps the character alive).

(4) Vulnerabilities (the gadget has damaged the user somehow,so that certain attacks do more damage).

(5) Physical Limitations (the characters have been permanently maimed by the gadget malfunctioning)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Southern Cross

Oh Gary,just adding Unluck to a character who hasn't paid points for a gadget is so obvious and implausible.Here are are a few other suggestions:

(1)Hunteds (Everybody wants the gadget in question.This works best if the gadget is one of a kind).

(2)Susceptibilities (this works best withexperimental gadgets.which may notprotect the user adequately)

(3)Dependencies (either the user is somehow addicted to the gadget or the gadget keeps the character alive).

(4) Vulnerabilities (the gadget has damaged the user somehow,so that certain attacks do more damage).

(5) Physical Limitations (the characters have been permanently maimed by the gadget malfunctioning)

 

Those suggestions work as well. I just personally like Unluck. It's evil.

[Ragdoll]

Originally posted by Kolava

Alright, thanks for all the input. By far the most useful was the reminder about the genre, and how characters really shouldn't want to keep foci (my players just finished a D&D campaign so they are still in a "kill everything that moves and steal its loot" mindset)

 

I was wondering, though, about more powerful foci. An AK can run out of ammo or be illegal, but what about Dr Icicle's freeze ring? What character wouldn't want to just slip on that ring and keep it handy for when it's needed? Sure, a GM could pull the "it corrupts you" routine, but it's sort of hard when the ring doesn't offer generic "power", but a narrow element.

 

Maybe that wasn't the best example, but I'm trying to make a point. Looting is something that should, for the most part, be left behind in D&D. How can I make this point stick, though, when logic flies in the face of it every ten minutes during a game? Can't I introduce a single NPC with focused powers without having to account for the fate of each foci? How can I expect every character to ignore a chance to equip themselves with what will obviously give them an advantage?

 

Hi. I'd definitely say their are some 'laws' that would be broken if a character just decided to 'keep' a certian defeated enemies foci such as a superhuman's foci.

 

Whatever law enforcement agency deals with cleaning up the villians afterward and transporting the, to whatever institution you've deemed to deal and keep super powered criminals under lock and key, will begin to get suspicious 'very' very' quickly, if they visit 3 of your player's battlesites and find Doctor Freeze minus his ring, Evil Power Suit girl, minus her power armour and evil slasher claw villain missing his claw gauntlets.

 

Even if they 'don't' know what powers the villains had before hand, investigators that show up willtake statements from anyone that witnessed the battle as a matter of course. They'll hear that doctor freeze was freezing things, or that a woman in power armour was flying around blasting things or a person with claws strapped to their hands was tearing through barricades. They may 'assume' Doctor Freeze's powers are inborn and not he result of a ring, but they'll wonder where the woman's armour went to and where the claw persons claws vanished to.

 

Further more, when Doctor Freeze wakes up, the team that incarcerates villians will want to study him, with the villians consent I'd imagine, or they'll want to take a confession or a statement. They'll ask about things, Doctor Freeze will eventually work out they don't have his super equipment, this will come as a surprise to investigators...little things like that add up. The government or state agencies that deal with the aftermath of battles will eventually begin to look oddly at the PC's.

 

Foci 'will' be missed, it's only a matter of time. If the PC that took it, shows up in action or at a battle site wearing the 'armour' or using Doctor Freeze's ring, the investigators will figure out 'very' quickly that this teams seems to like to 'take' things, and that's a no no under state/federal law.

 

Even if an ice using character is the one that took the ring to increase her own power, that might let her stay under the radar for a while, but enventually, Doctor Freeze is going to accuse her of something even from jail.

 

ie: She was looking at my ring! She's the one that stole it, why don't you arrest her too!

 

If nothing else, the investigators will probably check her out, especially if other foci have gone missing when this team is around.

 

OR alternately, Doctor Freeze may escape, or be parolled. You can 'bet' he'll come looking for his ring. Likely with friends, or a new toy in his arsenal, or something that will either turn the ring against the wearer or nulify it. Of he may just ambush her, when she's on patrol by herself and teach her a lesson about stealing.

 

I mean, their are 'so' many things you can do with this. Not all of them have to be bad either. You can design an entire adventure around a villains need to get revenge against one character, bringing in the other PC's eventually. Actions often have consequences.

 

Alternately, if a character does get their hands on a foci object, and it's a 'freebie' (ie: no one will miss it), the acceptable way in the HERO book, is, I believe, make the character pay points for it, while they use it. Either have 'every' other xp point total go towards paying for the ring, or make 'every' xp point total from every session they play in go towards the ring until they pay it off.

 

For instance, if player a takes Doctor Freeze's 60 point pool Multipower Freeze ring which is OIF: Ring. Then the player can use it but they'll have to:

 

a. pay for the cost in xp, at 'every' session they play in until the cost is paid for completely.

b. pay for the cost in xp at every other session, until paid for.

 

Also take note of how often they use the ring. If player a gets 3 xp for an adventure, but they used the doctor's ring 100% of the time, then nearly all or all of the xp earns goes to paying off the ring. it doesn't matter if the player used conversation skill or analyze during an adventure. Look at what the player used most, and assign xp spenditures accordingly. If you feel generous, make them spend 90% of xp on the ring if they use it nearly all the time, and let them put 1 point into some other skill they used if they want. This assumes they used a skill for something else and didn't just use the ring constantly, of course.

 

Also, take into account not all foci are universal, some are personal foci. That freeze ring may work for the doctor because it's keyed to his personal life readings or brainwave patterns. That suit of power armour may be be usable by the villian but has passcodes to keep others from using it. It 'very' likely has security systems. Even if it didn't, figuring out 'all' of the fuctions of a suit of powered armour will be a daunting task at best.

 

And...most technology, especially if you're playing with gritty realism, is 'breakable'. it may work well, until the team gets into a fight, then the one with the ring get blasted through a wall, or gets hits with an AE attack. Suddenly the ring isn't in tip top condition, and you'd got a damaged possibly dangerous situation. You'll need to have it analyzed and repairs 'attempted'. This will be difficult, since the person repairing it doesn't have schematics. They'll have to try and reverse engineer it, or study it. Things like this take time without knowledge of the device before hand.

 

And don't forget, if it's technology, not 'every' piece of technology comes with clearly labeled instructions. That ring Doctor Freeze had doesn't have clearly labled instructions or a book of instructions. Doctor Freeze knows how to use it, but the character isn't as adept. Place no point cost activation rolls on some powers or all the powers. Give them a sheet of paper with the power written in and little 'else'. If it's a Multipower, put:

 

Multipower: Freeze Ring (Points ??) OIF: Ring.

U-??; act 8-

M-Unknown Power activation roll 8-

etc...

 

If Doctor Freeze used an ice blast...well, they know the ring does that..but what else does it do? He may, for instance, have not used the hypothermia blast which is 4D6 NND (not vs. those with Life Support vs. Cold). The character would have no idea that the ring has this power. They'd have to discover it.

 

What I'm saying is, if a player character takes a foci, this does not automatically assume instant knowledge of all its functions. When they get the ring, ask them to write down the the things that Doctor Freeze did with the ring as 'best' they can remember. Use 'that' as the starting sheet on the rings abilities and put other powers they don't know about with question marks and activations rolls or no concious control.

 

In sort, if they take a focus, even if it's one that won't be missed, don't make it too easy on them. If they want new equipment, make it clear to them, they're going to have to 'work' for it.

 

Ragdoll.

[Farkling]

And don't forget, there are probabley civil rights groups in existance that will file suits on behlaf of prisoners and parolees who have had their belongings "stolen" by the heroes.

[Farkling]

Can you imagine?

 

"I'm sorry, but we're with Chase Manhatten, and this is a court order preventing the sale or transfer of the property known as 'Avengers Mansion' pending the outcome of Civil Trial 452. You cannot sell, transfer, or use this property as collateral until this suit has been settled in the eyes of the State."

 

Captain America "Civil Suit 452?"

Representative: "Filed for return of property and payment of damages. It seems that Thor there stole Dr. Doom's Weather Wand, a piece of property representing years of research and approximately $ 200,000 in funding and patents. The Dr. is also sueing for damages in the amount of $ 15,000,000 due to crop failures in his country causing purchase of outside consumables in order to prevent his population from starving. Can I have your autograph for my kids?"

Thor: "Midgard's laws have no hold over a son of Asgard. This wand is a perversion against nature and those powers granted me by All-Father Odin."

Captain America:: "Thor, you do not want to get embroiled in the American legal system. Justice sometimes gets confused." Turns to court representative "We'll return the wand son, just as soon as I clear it with the President. This shouldn't happen again. Here's your autograph."

Thor: "The wand lies in Asgard mortal, beyond your jurisdiction. Due to retrictions imposed by the All-Father himself, I cannot return for it."

Representative:: "You mean it's been transported beyond the borders of the United States? Oh my. That's a Federal crime."

Captain America:: " ... "

[Tasha]

I would make any signature items have a 8- Activation roll for people other than the original owner. You may HAVE Iron Man's armor, but do you know how to pilot it? You may have Dr Cold's power ring, but do you know how to activate it? They way to get rid of the Activation roll is to pay points for the Focused powers.

 

For real world weapons, I haven't really had a problem with them. Most supers are fairly resistant to small arms fire (esp Champions characters).

 

Tasha

[Chromatic]

Originally posted by Farkling

And don't forget, there are probabley civil rights groups in existance that will file suits on behlaf of prisoners and parolees who have had their belongings "stolen" by the heroes.

 

Hmm wonder what they would attempt to do to a group that:

 

a) converts the husk of robotic villan into cigarette vending machine

brainwashes and wipes the mind to turn into household mindless drone servant of anti-mutant vigilante

c) swaps brains of convicted felon (well npc follower) with a dog to avoid incarceration

d) routinely takes back foci to the lab to be converted and have technology utilized in the future

 

That's just off the top of my head.

 

And by the way, never has an item that was picked up and used during a session put into use in a later session unless it was rolled into the points in a VPP or gadget pool.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Chromatic

Hmm wonder what they would attempt to do to a group that:

 

a) converts the husk of robotic villan into cigarette vending machine

brainwashes and wipes the mind to turn into household mindless drone servant of anti-mutant vigilante

c) swaps brains of convicted felon (well npc follower) with a dog to avoid incarceration

d) routinely takes back foci to the lab to be converted and have technology utilized in the future

 

That's just off the top of my head.

 

And by the way, never has an item that was picked up and used during a session put into use in a later session unless it was rolled into the points in a VPP or gadget pool.

 

Yeah but how much do they know about?

 

Well right now, and you missed last "issue"

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

Yeah but how much do they know about?

 

Well right now, and you missed last "issue"

We vend cigarettes?

[Chromatic]

Originally posted by lemming

We vend cigarettes?

 

No, that's what makes the insult doubly so. Not only was Mocker turned into a vending machine, but it's a completely useless one at that.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chromatic

No, that's what makes the insult doubly so. Not only was Mocker turned into a vending machine, but it's a completely useless one at that.

Maybe we can vend something useful. Especially items that Mr. Weed & others seem to want.

[Chromatic]

When I get back from Afgani--err Mexico, yeah Mexico I will make the changes to vend those little bottles of booze from airlines.