buying down CON on automations

[LoneWolf]

In 6th edition does a character that has the power Takes No Stun need CON?  I could be missing something, but from what I can see there is no reason such a character could not buy down his CON to 0. 

 

Also, assuming the character bought all powers including STR and movement to 0 END they could also buy down REC, and END to 0. 

 

Is there anything that would prevent this?

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't see an issue with any character that paid for all abilities to be 0 END selling back END. They may regret that should they be attacked by Mental Paralysis, though.

 

I would ensure that CON rolls are encountered with sufficient frequency and impact to justify a 10 point savings if a character sold back its 10 CON.  This is no different than a 10 point Complication.

[unclevlad]

CON comes into play in some other ways.  Takes No Stun involves the obvious one, but 6E1 44 points out...at 0 CON, you have to make a CON roll (which is 9-) to spend END.  

 

If you buy everything to 0 END?  The cost savings they'd get would almost certainly be FAR less than buying everything to 0 END.  You only save 18 points.  Buying base Running to 0 END is 6, and that's just a bare start.  Also note that Takes No Stun triples the cost of defenses...and it's very expensive in the first place.  This is increasing the base cost, too...HD says, 4/4 Armor with Hardened is 45, when Takes No Stun has been selected.  36 + 9.  And you probably need to focus on resistant defenses.

 

On the flip side, I'd ask...why?  Explain the concept to me.  Some disembodied energy cloud?  Are there *any* biological processes in play?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I usually buy automatons to 0 CON, REC, and END, then buy all their abilities to 0 END Cost.  You can't push then, but usually they're mindless anyway so they won't have the willpower to push.  Its a whopping savings of 18 points, so it doesn't exactly pay for any of their very expensive automaton abilities and life support but its a bit of a cost offset.

[tombrown803]

If you buy REC to 0, you won't heal any BODY damage. If your concept works for that, go ahead and do it.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Typically automatons require repair rather than healing: zombies, robots, constructs such as golems, etc.  Vampires and such have their own healing mechanism (regeneration and healing when lying in their coffin, etc).  In any case, NPCs usually don't worry about healing Body, its a very long-term thing.

Edited March 19 by Christopher R Taylor

[LoneWolf]

This came up when I was writing up a Necromancer that summons skeletons. The skeleton does not have much beyond STR and Running that uses END so buying 0 END and selling back the END made sense.  Buying back the REC also made sense because they don’t heal.  When I did that, I saw no reason that the skeleton needed CON.   

 

I just wanted to make sure I was not overlooking anything.  Thanks all.
 

[Gauntlet]

Pretty much the buying down REC to is for those automations that have no healing ability for themselves, which often is the case for basic zombies and skeletons and some basic robots. The only way they can get BODY back is by being healed or repaired by an outside source.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I just wanted to make sure I was not overlooking anything.  Thanks all.

 

If you want to be really technical about it, they should have no hit locations (it doesn't hurt an animated skeleton any more to hit it in the pelvis than the toe) and life support (no, that poison gas does not bother them), and maybe something to simulate being made of thin bones so arrow attacks are less likely to hit, etc but... you don't need all that unless you're a completionist.

[Gauntlet]

48 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I just wanted to make sure I was not overlooking anything.  Thanks all.

 

If you want to be really technical about it, they should have no hit locations (it doesn't hurt an animated skeleton any more to hit it in the pelvis than the toe) and life support (no, that poison gas does not bother them), and maybe something to simulate being made of thin bones so arrow attacks are less likely to hit, etc but... you don't need all that unless you're a completionist.

 

Actually hit locations can make since for animations. Hitting that skeleton in the toe and even cutting it off will not have as much effect as hitting it in the chest and splitting it in two. I take the zombie's head off and while perhaps it might not kill it, it may make it harder to see me and attack me. While the different locations might not increase/decrease the damage done but it very well could have other effects.

[LoneWolf]

Already gave them life support. 

 

I agree with Gauntlet on the hit location.  The exact location might be slightly different, but the game mechanics can still work.  A “head shot” might be snapping its spine thereby cutting it in half. 

[Gauntlet]

Plus, sometimes it is cool for the GM to be describing what happened:

 

"With a quick snap of the blade you caught the neck of the Zombie taking its head off completely. The head bouncing on the ground, its mouth moving with a silent moan, while its body swings blindless as it attempts to end your life continue pointlessly without direction."

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Actually hit locations can make since for animations. Hitting that skeleton in the toe and even cutting it off will not have as much effect as hitting it in the chest and splitting it in two. I take the zombie's head off and while perhaps it might not kill it, it may make it harder to see me and attack me.

 

If you have bought "takes no stun" but loses powers, to me that covers the hit locations.  You can use the hit locations to figure out what part is affected and starts to lose powers when they lose body, but the purpose of the "no hit locations" power is to  specifically avoid the damage variants that hit locations result in; "a hit for, say, 5 BODY and 20 STUN does that much damage whether the Automaton is hit in the head or the hand" as the rules put it.  And, of course, they don't bleed.

Edited March 19 by Christopher R Taylor

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

If you have bought "takes no stun" but loses powers, to me that covers the hit locations.  You can use the hit locations to figure out what part is affected and starts to lose powers when they lose body, but the purpose of the "no hit locations" power is to  specifically avoid the damage variants that hit locations result in; "a hit for, say, 5 BODY and 20 STUN does that much damage whether the Automaton is hit in the head or the hand" as the rules put it.  And, of course, they don't bleed.

 

I agree with you 100%. I was just making a point that even through an animation has no STUN or may not take extra BODY based on a location, it doesn't mean that a location will have no effect. It just seemed to me that some new players might think that it was a takes STUN or only takes BODY and nothing else were the only options. One thing with HERO, there practically always is another option. 

[LoneWolf]

A character that takes no stun stops functioning at 0 BODY.  I am not really sure you need to take does not bleed, especially for a summoned creature.   The way I want this to work is after the skeleton takes damage equal to its BODY it stops functioning.   I could even have it take a physical complication for that, but it does not seem to be worth the bother. 

 

I don’t have a problem with the skeleton taking extra body based on the hit location chart.  Losing its hand is probably not going to slow it down, but having its chest shattered would be more likely to destroy it.   The idea is to build a cheap creature that a low powered caster can use as a minion.   Spending an Extra 15 points on top of all the other powers seems to be a bit expensive for what I want. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah it is not cheap to build undead, and its fine if you don't buy EVERYTHING (does it really need to be immune to radiation, zero pressure, and be immortal?)

[LoneWolf]

Some of the life support is probably necessary.  The same necromancy that summons the skeleton has a spell that ages the target.  That type of spell is fairly common with necromancy.  Immunity to pressure also covers the effects of different environments like high altitude or deep underwater.  There are also spells that can duplicate those.  Radiation is probably not needed, but some underground settings do include strange radiation.  The radiation might be magic based instead of scientific but could still exist.  

[Gauntlet]

Plus, undead are not only in Fantasy Hero games. I have used them in Champions, Space Games, and frequently run Modern Horror Games.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 3/19/2024 at 1:23 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

If you want to be really technical about it, they should have no hit locations (it doesn't hurt an animated skeleton any more to hit it in the pelvis than the toe)

 

It doesn't hurt at all. But the skeleton can probably function a lot better with a shattered foot than a shattered spine.

[Gauntlet]

No Hit Locations would probably be better for opponents that are completely ethereal, like a ghost or something that is completely made of desolid materials, like perhaps a gas.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, the only effect the No Hit Locations power has in the rules is "now you don't take different damage from being hit in a location."  So like I suggested above, the way you simulate different areas causing different effects would be the "loses powers" option for Takes No Stun.  You can still roll hit locations, you just assess what area loses power by that, not what damage is sustained.  At least, that's how it seems to me.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The thing is, the only effect the No Hit Locations power has in the rules is "now you don't take different damage from being hit in a location."  So like I suggested above, the way you simulate different areas causing different effects would be the "loses powers" option for Takes No Stun.  You can still roll hit locations, you just assess what area loses power by that, not what damage is sustained.  At least, that's how it seems to me.

 

They're still separate notions.  I have no issue with rolling a hit location to help figure out the loss the automaton will suffer, but that's in a totally different stage, as determining the effect of the damage.  Hit locations affect the amount of the damage.

 

Even the full Takes No Stun does not mean the automaton can't be decapitated or crippled (take out the knee so it can't move).  

 

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

No Hit Locations would probably be better for opponents that are completely ethereal, like a ghost or something that is completely made of desolid materials, like perhaps a gas.

 

"Desolid" isn't the word you want, but there's several variations so terminology is tricky.  Mud men...you have to blow them apart.  Cut off a leg?  It re-flows.  D&D's oozes are quite similar.  Gaseous forms are also the same.  A key point is...there's nothing special to hit.  Then it's got restitution...the ability to return to its preferred state.  So it covers gaseous, sure, but also fluid, or colloidal solids, or even some plastics, would make a decent basis.

[LoneWolf]

Hit locations affect more than just stun.  They also affect the amount of Body the target takes.  The body multiplier is after defenses, so the dynamics are a little different than stun.  A vital hit on a creature that takes no stun does 2x the amount of body after defenses.  

 

The creature with Takes No Stun has a higher chance of taking maximum effect from the hit location than a normal creature.   To the creature with Takes No Stun a head shot and a vital shot have the same effect.   The chance of a head shot is .46%; the chance of a vital shot is 9.72%.  The creature with Takes No Stun has a 10.18% chance of taking the maximum effect. Given the lower defenses of the creature that Takes No Stun it is more likely that Body will get through.  That means a vital shot to a skeleton is a lot more likely to take them completely out of the combat.
 

[unclevlad]

Thank you for taking the time to explain that more fully.  

 

And to take it a step further...AP becomes brutal against Takes No Stun, because for the automaton, buying Hardened is expensive.  2 points of hardened, resistant defense is 11 points with TNS in play.

[LoneWolf]

Most people look at the hit location rules and all they see is the stun multiple.   The Body multiple is what makes it really dangerous.  A vital shot in FH from a decent weapon has a good chance of killing anything.  It is somewhat offset by the locations that halve the Body, but even those can be dangerous. If you are using the disabling rules a hit to the arm or hand can often put your character at a severe disadvantage, even if the Body is cut in half.  Losing the functionality of an arm or hand can be worse than taking damage.   That is one of the reason combat in FH can be a lot deadlier than in Champions.