Talos Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 I've hit a brick wall so to speak here. Our game group want's to add in minatures into use while playing. Seeing as some of us are avid sculptors and scratch build modelers it didn't take long to say yes to the though of adding whole scene elements....anyway here's the problem: Hero scale is set to where 1 inch is 6.5 feet. Most of the figures we use are on a 1 inch base which if I figure right means at "arms stretched" will have a 6.5 arm span....not going to work. Has someone done any reconfiguration to the game scale to alter the 1 in = 6.5 ft scale to something lower like 1 in = 3.5 ft or so? I'd do it myself if I knew exactly how to make it work in game terms Any help would be greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 I've moved this since it's not a rules question, but a subject for discussion. Have at it, Herodom Assembled! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 If I understand your question correctly, wouldn't it be easiest just to change the map scale? Just say, "Two inches on the map equals one game inch," and let it go at that. Then the figures' scale would appear "smaller" in the world, but you wouldn't have to actually change any game mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talos Posted December 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Either way you do it you will have to change the general game mechanics. I'm just looking for the easiest way to go without making it a major project on top of all this modeling:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badger3k Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Originally posted by Talos Either way you do it you will have to change the general game mechanics. I'm just looking for the easiest way to go without making it a major project on top of all this modeling:D Not really. No game mechanic changes, IF I understand correctly. The easiest way is when you look at the map, 1" there is the equivalent of 1/2" in Hero terms. A man who is 7" distant on the board will be 3.5 (or 4") away in game terms. That way doesn't use any changes in game mechanics at all. A figure with 6" (Hero) running would move 12" on the half-scale map. I think 1m is closer to 3.3' or something like it (slightly smaller than 3.5). If you dont want to use that for some reason, if you change the scale you have two options that I can see: 1) The entire game scales down, thus nothing changes, but everything covers half the distance/etc that it would do in a normal game (ie a power with a range of active x 5 and 10 active points is still 50", it's just that reduced scale makes that 150m instead of 300". Since everything is scaled down I don't know if anything would be off (although you may need to buy more movement to keep the mph/kph definition). Falling damage would also need to be reconfigured, with max velocity something like 60" instead of 30". That isn't too hard if you don't want exacts. 2) The game scales down, but the abilities don't - to keep the same definition of inches within the game for abilities you could just adjust range/dia/etc by a factor of two - range for a power is active x 10". That's kinda the reverse of just reading the map scale differently, if I got the idea right. That's about all the help I can give. The only things that I can see changing are the speed equations (mph, velocity, falling damage). Whether a simple x2 conversion would work there, I am not sure - I haven't sat down to see if they come to the same result in the end. Turning radii would probably change to, but that I'm really not sure of - maybe require 2" to be moved for each original 1" (2m) in the original movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Originally posted by Talos Either way you do it you will have to change the general game mechanics. I'm just looking for the easiest way to go without making it a major project on top of all this modeling:D You'll forgive me, but I don't understand why you feel this will make a necessary change to the game mechanic? Derek's suggestion is straight forward. "Game inch", does not have to mean the same thing as real world inch. I use hex mats, and to use Hero Clix I bought a mat with a hex's that are larger than one real world inch. I still use the scale 1 hex = 1 game inch = 2 meters. If it helps ever place you see the word "inch" used as a game term cal it something else, and identify that as equalling 2 real world inches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Being an old school Games Workshop junkie (a habit Ive mostly beaten), and having some pretty respectable miniature painting and conversion skills, Ive used minis w/ the HERO System for a long time (though we use proxys & standins for supers). Since the GW minis which I prefer are supposed to be 1 to 25mm IIRC, but are actual overscaled to 1 to 32mm IIRC, the scale issue is pronounced. Personally, I just remember that the minis are bigger than what they represent, and make the mental translation. I do this so automatically that I dont even realize it until I have some new players at the table and they take the size of the minis to be literal. A quick explanation sorts that out however, and we all proceed. So my advice is to not worry about it and just remember that the mini is larger than the character it respresents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talos Posted December 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 What we are trying to acomplish is building actual sets. Interiors of taverns, landscapes, cap sites, etc. I was figuring(no pun intended) to keep everything to scale. Making a table to scale in conjunction with the figures. I thought it might be easier that way. The 2x idea could work as well as "just wing it" approach. Either way these sets are looking REAL cool! When I get some of the final painting and stuff done I'll post some photos to share with everyone. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebar Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 I'm going to be handed the dunce hat for this but... What exactly is the problem? A game inch is 6 feet. (OK, 6.5 feet) Your miniatures are 1 inch tall? So, they are game scale 6.5" tall. Yes, a 6.5 foot tall person will have an outstretched breadth of 6.5 feet (as Da Vinci so eloquently illustrated with his Vitruvius Man). What is the problem? Is it that your characters are more near 5 feet tall? I would think being that picky would entail worrying that those little guys tend to have gigantic heads, hand and feet more than a blanket scaling of their sizes. Surely, this falls within a reasonable margin of error? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Well, most GW minis are taller than an inch. They are deliberately overscaled, which makes them look cooler and allows for more detail, but does play fast and loose w/ exact scaling. This works in GW games bcs the Base of the model is what matters for most measurements -- ranges are measured base to base and close combat is resolved base to base. But when using the minis for HERO's the figs are about 1.5 times enlarged. The old skinny Ral Partha minis are closer to HERO's scale, but they look (IMO) like crap, and are so small that they dont carry much detailing. Personally, I treat it as a margin of error thing -- the minis are not 100% representative anyway, so whats a small matter of scale oversizing for enhanced appearance? Doesnt bother me, but I've known a few purists that had difficultys hurdling the difference mentally. Some people are very visual and interpret what they see very literally, others are more cerebral and accept abstracted things for their intended meaning rather than their literal representation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Ral Partha: GW: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebar Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 "...Some people are very visual and interpret what they see very literally..." They're going to have bigger fish to fry in a game where - your average Joe can pick up a full grown adult, hold them over their head, and sprint for an indefinite length of time without tiring - Joe can only act once every 12 seconds - you can run at somoene and punch them, but you can't punch them first and then run away - Megajoules of energy can fly across crowded city streets and cause zero collateral damage - Joe can get shot - several times - and recover without hospitalization Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Originally posted by Rebar "...Some people are very visual and interpret what they see very literally..." They're going to have bigger fish to fry in a game where - your average Joe can pick up a full grown adult, hold them over their head, and sprint for an indefinite length of time without tiring - Joe can only act once every 12 seconds - you can run at somoene and punch them, but you can't punch them first and then run away - Megajoules of energy can fly across crowded city streets and cause zero collateral damage - Joe can get shot - several times - and recover without hospitalization If they can get over all of that, then Im sure they can get over an overscaled miniature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 The 1" = 6.5 feet is relatively arbitrary. There is no reason you cant alter the scale and say X" = 6.5 feet with no impact on actual game mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Substitue all occurences of the word "inch" with the word "hex" and set: Hex = 1.5" or whatever arbitrary figure you like. Keith "Built a fantasy city block model for Savage Earth" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebar Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 BTW KS, those miniatures are incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Originally posted by Rebar BTW KS, those miniatures are incredible. Not mine however; I found both with a web search. The detail work on the hammers of the GW model are insane, arent they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatic Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Seems to me that the other issue (aside from having to scratch build all those nift sets) is: you decide that 1 hex is now 3 meters, instead of 2 meters. Scrambler has his AOE entangle attack omlette. The power is bought as 5d6 entangle, AOE cone How do you decide which hexes are now covered in rapidly hardening egg mixture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Now we're talking about two different things. Changing the Miniatures Scale is no problem. you could play with life size figures and sets and not have a scale problem, using the rules as written. Changing the Game Scale is a different animal altogether. If you make one hex equal 3 meters, there are a host of considerations, including things like movement, range modifiers, throwing, leaping and of course area effect attacks. I think the problem as stated concerns changing the Miniatures Scale, which can be done in an arbitrary fashion. Keith "Anyone know where I can find a football field marked off in two-meter hexes?" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Actually an average Joe (with a 2 SPD) can act twice in a Turn,or once every 6 seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kolava Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Originally posted by Rebar - your average Joe can pick up a full grown adult, hold them over their head, and sprint for an indefinite length of time without tiring Wouldn't they eventually exhaust their modest END? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatic Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Wait a sec, is this just asking how to change the hex size on the battlemat? Good Lord! just get one of the many PDF hex files out there, change the hex size to suit your needs and print out an overlay on transparency plastic sheets. There are also mats in different scales. I have some with 20mm squares, 25mm hexes, and 36mm hexes. Given that you are going to be making 3D diorama's, you are likely going to not have any hexes down at all, so I would revert to something like the old StarFleet battles tabletop game and use indexed cords with the proper lengths on them for the scale you want. This way you can make everything fit whatever size you want, even 4" tall vinyl figures from fast food meals would work--assuming that you build everything to fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebar Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 >>your average Joe can pick up a full grown adult, hold them over their head, and sprint for an indefinite length of time without tiring" >Wouldn't they eventually exhaust their modest END? Lift a 100kg object: 2 End Run 6": 1 End x2 phases per turn -4 Rec per turn Oops, you're right, he would burn 1 End per turn, thus he would only be able to do it for 4 minutes (slightly less than 1/2 km). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Sorry folks, average Joe has a STR of 8, and can't even lift a 100 kg person, let alone run. Also according to 5e rules, your strength lift represents how much you can barely lift off the ground and stagger for a few steps, not how much you can hold over your head. (per Str Table FREd p21). Average Joe needs at least 15 STR. In my game, I would require 20 Str so he can use Casual Str, if he's going to run with it. Keith "Mr. Stickler" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talos Posted January 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Does anyone know if Rackham miniatures has a web site or do they just distribute to other companies? I've been searching for an "official" site but no luck yet. Thanks everyone for their help. Reaper by far fits with what we needed and has nearly every possible mini we needed too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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