Delay Delay Delay

[Hugh Neilson]

This is a tangent arising from the Rapid Fire thread (don't worry - it starts here and you don't need to weed through that thread to get the background).

 

The background comes from the drawbacks of Rapid Fire and Sweep - you're at half DCV and it costs your full phase - which some believe discourages its use (and rightly so - there must be some offset to the advantages). One comment was that these aren't so bad if I hold my phase until DEX 1 (or zero, or "how low can you go"), use the Rapid Fire maneuver, and then abort at the start of the next segment, say to Dodge.

 

To me, there's a lot of metagame thinking to that, which sits poorly. This action should take your full pahse, but technically, you can pull it off in Dex 1 of Segment 5, then abort at DEX 150 in Segment 6. Nothing prevents it.

 

Taking this a step further, let's say we build a character with a Multipower with two Ultra slots - a 15d6 Energy Blast, and +30/+30 Force field at 1/2 END. He also has 5 Combat Levels, and some martial arts skills, including Martial Dodge. We'll give him a 5 Speed.

 

At his DEX on phase 5, he Delays. At the very end of the segment, he puts all levels in OCV, and fires off his Energy Blast (maybe he rapid fires it, or uses some other DCV penalizing/OCV bonus maneuver). At the very start of Phase 6, he aborts to activate his force field, Martial Dodge and move his levels to DCV.

 

This is clearly extreme - he could easily be held to only one defensive maneuver, but a character who puts all his offense and most of his defense in a multipower saves a lot of points, and could have considerably more of each. A character with a lot of levels similarly can make a huge OCV/DCV swing.

 

I have a few questions on this for the ranks of Herodom. I don't see any right or wrong answers here, but I'm curious how others have dealt with this. Questions follow:

 

1. Has this happened/become prevalent in your games, as a GM or player?

 

For me, the answer is no. It doesn't generally fit the genre, and our group isn't focused on maximized tactical strengths, regardless of genre. It's also "extreme metagaming", to my mind.

 

2. Is it viewed as a problem where it does happen?

 

For me, if it moves out of genre, I'd see it as a bad thing. It's probably OK if all the players are playing the same game, but one guy who min/maxes with a group of role players can really screw up the game (just as one role player in a group of min/maxers likely won't be adding to the fun of the game).

 

3. If it is a problem, how do you solve it?

 

It's only a problem, by the way, if it's happening AND that detracts from enjoyment of the game. To me, one solution would be establishing some period of time that must pass before a character can abort, probably based on the character's normal phase. For example, perhaps taking a full phase action prevents Aborting until the same DEX in the next phase, whatever DEX you acted on.

 

It could also be done as "relative DEX". You normally move at DEX 23, and DEX 42 is the absolute campaign highest. If you delay to DEX 1, you can't abort until DEX 20 in the next phase [you delayed 22 DEX, and 42-22 = 20.]

 

Of course, one could also reject characters designed to abuse this - like the Multipower Guy noted above. However, some abuses aren't so obvious (esp. combat levels, or simple use of maneuvers with significant drawbacks). These could, I suppose, be mitigated by ruling that the penalties from a half or full phase action remain in place for some period of time after the action, even if you abort (or have another phase) in fairly short order. Perhaps the penalties remain in effect until the same DEX on the next segment. Maybe a longer timeframe applies for full phase actions, or maybe this only applies for full phase actions.

 

So, for example, you can Sweep in DEX 1, Phase 5 with all your levels in OCV (let's say that gives you a DCV 8 x 1/2 = 4), then abort in Phase 6 to Dodge and reallocate your levels to DCV. Let's say that's +6 to your DCV. So you get DCV 8 + 6 = 14, but the Sweep penalty remains, so your DCV is halved to 7 until DEX 1, Phase 6, at which time it returns to full (now 14).

 

All of this adds more complexity, so I wouldn't be inclined to make any changes until/unless I actually see it abused, on a fairly regular basis, in-game. I'm just curious if anyone has seen this go beyond a theoretical issue to an in-game one and, if so, how they've dealt with it.

[austenandrews]

1. Yes, it happens.

 

2. No, it's not a problem. By aborting the player has sacrificed a Phase, which is an acceptable tradeoff in my view. In my experience, players don't like to give up Phases like that unless their backs are up against a wall (which happened to be the case in my game the other night, at which point that very tactic was used).

 

One thing that I don't allow, though, is for someone to say "I act after everyone else on the Phase." If someone else has a held action, that person can always choose to act after the first person. So in this instance if two guys with held actions face each other, one can't say "I attack last in Segment 5 and then abort to Dodge in Segment 6." He can wait till the end of Segment 5 to attack, but his opponent can then use his held action to counterattack before Segment 6 arrives. If that makes sense.

 

3. You're right, it's only a problem if it detracts from the game. "Gaming the system" is fun for me and my players, and it doesn't detract from roleplaying, so we're good.

 

-AA

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by austenandrews

1. Yes, it happens.

 

2. No, it's not a problem. By aborting the player has sacrificed a Phase, which is an acceptable tradeoff in my view. In my experience, players don't like to give up Phases like that unless their backs are up against a wall (which happened to be the case in my game the other night, at which point that very tactic was used).

 

"Back to the wall" to me means "rare event". I don't mind seeing something unusual done in such cases. I'm more thinking "matter of course" issues.

 

Originally posted by austenandrews

One thing that I don't allow, though, is for someone to say "I act after everyone else on the Phase." If someone else has a held action, that person can always choose to act after the first person. So in this instance if two guys with held actions face each other, one can't say "I attack last in Segment 5 and then abort to Dodge in Segment 6." He can wait till the end of Segment 5 to attack, but his opponent can then use his held action to counterattack before Segment 6 arrives. If that makes sense.

 

Perfect sense, and this is a serious weakness I see in the argument that these penalties can be avoided by the "Delay/Abort" tactic. If you use it once in a blue moon, you probably get away with it. If it's your standard tactic, opponents will eventually use it against you.

[Outsider]

Hehe.. If two guys say they're holding until their action until everyone else has acted, I just start the next segment once its just the two of them left. They spend the whole time having a standoff waiting on the other guy to move.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by Outsider

Hehe.. If two guys say they're holding until their action until everyone else has acted, I just start the next segment once its just the two of them left. They spend the whole time having a standoff waiting on the other guy to move.

 

Yep, as GM I have no compunction about sacrificing an NPC's Phase to set up a nice little standoff. Provides good tension.

 

-AA

[Chromatic]

You could just make the two standing off make Dex rolls to see who is more successful.....loser of Dex roll gets pasted.

[megaplayboy]

The "I delay" thing annoys the heck out of me as a GM--it's basically the whole "wait for bad guy to move, do most tactically advantageous thing even when the PCs are not supposed to be master tacticians, usually dropping the NPC to half DCV or coordinating on the weakest/strongest villain first or deliberately going for the mismatch even when your nemeses are the most logical foes psychologically etc".

 

I want to roll up the battlemat and smack the players with it.

 

It's boring, unfair, unrealistic, and usually out of concept.

 

I would argue that delay is inappropriate(usually) under the following circumstances:

1. time critical situation(a bomb,e.g.)

2. overconfident PCs should almost never delay without making an appropriate Ego roll

3. ditto for facing Hunteds--depending on the "history" with the hunted, an Ego roll to avoid attacking immediately seems appropriate

 

And letting the villains delay is appropriate as well--or they can do things to force the PCs into action(in a supers game, the brick villain throws a car into a crowd, the flame wielding villain sets a building on fire(note: it's definitely metagmae thinking to ignore the fire on the rationale that the fight will only last a few seconds, and there'll be plenty of time to put out the fire), the mentalist turns one hero against the others, etc.

[Killer Shrike]

On the contrary, delay is the ability of one character to react to what others are doing. While that may be "out of character" for some characters, it's completely viable for most.

[DevoDog]

I think what you need to do is look at what the rules state (or stated in previous versions) about holding a phase.

 

The idea was, for example, I'm going to hold my phase to shoot if a villain comes around the corner. Or, I'm going to hold my phase and shoot at X-Villain if he moves toward the hostages.

 

If that event never occurred, then the character lost his phase.

 

I think that you, as a GM, need to put your foot down and if a character is holding his phase, you should make them state what/why they're holding the phase. Not just, because I don't know what I want to do yet and I want to see what the villains do.

[austenandrews]

Every GM has his own preference, of course, and can make his own call. For my part, though, I like to watch professional basketball; and in that context I regularly see people "delaying" to respond to an opponent's actions. That includes specifically delaying decisions, to tailor one's offense to the actions of the defense. In my view, to remove the flexibility of Delay is to penalize characters for having a high DEX.

 

-AA

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

On the contrary, delay is the ability of one character to react to what others are doing. While that may be "out of character" for some characters, it's completely viable for most.

 

I agree that "wait for them to make the first move" is often a viable and reasonable tactic. Take away "I delay to see what happens next", and characters are motivated to shoot first and ask questions later - not exactly four colour.

 

My only issue is the ability to "work" the action system to minimize the effects of penalties for certain actions by taking a delayed action, followed immediately by an "abort" that eliminates the penalties. I've seen it suggested, but haven't seen it impact my games, so I haven't needed to take any steps to mitigate this. But I was wondering what others' experience has been.

 

A similar issue arises with combat starting on phase 12 - may as well spend END since I get a recovery anyway.

[Guest Keneton]

Holding

 

Holding is very efficient, but not an abuse. When combined with Rapid Fire and or concentrate, these effects are amplified, but still not abusive. While holding you take a few risks. . .

 

Loss of phase from stunning.

Effects of Presence Attack.

Being Beat on a Dex roll or Fast Draw.

Being caught unawares from a suprise attack or an attack with IPE.

 

These reduce although do not fully defeat the benefits. to make holding less effective consider the following.

 

1. You can only react to what you percieve. Make the holder make a perception roll (in this case at 0 phase) to spot the effect he is reacting to.

 

2. Penalize reactors -1 when making opposed fast draw or dex rolls. If Quasar is holding and Black Harlequin attacks Prophet his teammate, he can try and spoil his attack by making dex rolls but at -1 as he is reacting to the attack. Combine this with the above and holding is very fair.

 

3. When holdingto the bottom f the phase have some absolutes.

 

3a. No one can hold below haymakers and end of phase recoveries. these are THE BOTTOM of the phase.

 

3b. If two or more try to out hold the others have the holders make a tactics check. the winner gets to go while the others are forced to hold until the next segment. The GM may also not allow them to abort in this situation if need be.

 

4. Characters "holding" is perceptable. A standard discriminatory perception roll will revel that a character is holding. Thisis not technicallyin the rules but foloows the spirit of abilities such as analyze combat.

 

These rules have been part of my repetoire for over 11 years. I hope they help you.

[Guest Keneton]

About spending and or pushing on the 12th

 

The advantage of going on the 12th and recovering the end you use is well known. This although is completely fair because an even more deadly tactic is to go in the 1st so that your opponent does not get the benifits of a post 12 to negate your damage.

 

 

It is true that if you go in the 12th you should ALWAYS push.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by DevoDog

I think what you need to do is look at what the rules state (or stated in previous versions) about holding a phase.

 

If that event never occurred, then the character lost his phase.

 

I think that you, as a GM, need to put your foot down and if a character is holding his phase, you should make them state what/why they're holding the phase. Not just, because I don't know what I want to do yet and I want to see what the villains do.

 

Devo, i hate to argue but the earlier editions of the rules never said this. As far as a GM putting his foot down, I would say this more reeks of d20 thinking and is not in fact genre at all. It is quite common for heroes to hold for whatever reason.

 

I would not go this far although your and my opinion may vary.

 

ither way I see where you are coming from in terms of intent and reccomend you read my erlier post with possible solutions that do not limit your characters choices while still conforming to the spirit of the game and genre.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Holding

 

Originally posted by Keneton

1. You can only react to what you percieve. Make the holder make a perception roll (in this case at 0 phase) to spot the effect he is reacting to.

 

Considering most "reacts" are in the nature of "Wait wait - before he attacks, I'll...", a PER roll to see the opponent preparing to act would seem reasonable. Bonuses could be awarded if the character is focussing on that character (eg. "I delay to see what Firewing will do", or "I delay and will block Green Dragon if he attacks me" rather than just "Delay").

[DevoDog]

Originally posted by Keneton

Devo, i hate to argue but the earlier editions of the rules never said this. As far as a GM putting his foot down, I would say this more reeks of d20 thinking and is not in fact genre at all. It is quite common for heroes to hold for whatever reason.

 

Keneton,

 

Revised (2nd edition), 4th printing, pg 51 below SPD chart talks about holding a phase. I did, however, misread it and realized that even if you hold a full phase, you can react first.

 

I do, however, like your example of PER rolls and agree with you on your comments about penalties when holding a phase. However, I do think there are some problem with holding a phase.

 

For example, holding your phase until just before your next phase so you can Haymaker an not be as vulnerable.

 

Holding your phase because you're planning to attack, but dodge because another villain attacks you instead.

 

And remember, you can't use a held phase to recover (which my original group didn't realize and abused quite a bit).

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I agree that "wait for them to make the first move" is often a viable and reasonable tactic. Take away "I delay to see what happens next", and characters are motivated to shoot first and ask questions later - not exactly four colour.

Exactly.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

My only issue is the ability to "work" the action system to minimize the effects of penalties for certain actions by taking a delayed action, followed immediately by an "abort" that eliminates the penalties. I've seen it suggested, but haven't seen it impact my games, so I haven't needed to take any steps to mitigate this. But I was wondering what others' experience has been.

Ive never had a problem with it in going on 13 years of HEROs. One of the strengths of the system is that there are plenty of ways of getting a characters little red wagon. If a player wants to dip into the bag'o'cheesy trix, the GM needs to remind them that he's got a bigger bag. Reward cheesy metagame decisions with blatantly metagamed opposition. Dont over do it -- just make sure the point gets driven home. Smart players learn to play it straight, and who wants dumb players?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A similar issue arises with combat starting on phase 12 - may as well spend END since I get a recovery anyway.

Im pretty sure thats by design as it covers the classic initial splash scene of the comics medium -- the dramatic entrance more or less, after which everyone strikes a defining pose and looks pretty for the doublepage spread and ensuing roll call.

 

In Heroic level games Ive found that most combats usually start with a suprise round anyway, as its only smart to get the drop on the opposition when you cant bounce bullets off your chin.

[zornwil]

Because I make most action in a segment simultaneous, a held action doesn't make quite as much difference in this regard, although I would generally allow someone with a held reaction an edge in getting their action in first if they carried it over from a phase, by allowing a DEX roll with +2.

[Bengal]

Aren't we talking about superheroes? If they want to wait until the... last... possible... moment, they should be able to do that. In many situations, it's dramatically appropriate.

 

On the other hand, if you get one (or a group) of these players who make up a pile of points to aim (over the shoulder of the captured DNPC) at the bad guy... it's probably more a player problem than a rules problem.

[tesuji]

The mechanical problem is NOT with the delay or hold mechanics at all.

 

its the timing of the "when can i abort again: mechanic being tied to an off-stage clock (end of segment) instead of being tied to an IN GAME event.

 

Change the "cannot abort on a segment he has already acted in" to add in the following:

 

If your last action in a segment was at least half your usual dex (ie if dex 30 you acted between 30 and 15) you can abort immediately once the next segment starts.

 

If your last action was lower than half your dex (again dex 30 delays until somewhere in the 0-14 dex action) you cannot abort until the next phase at half your dex initiative.

 

So, a guy with 30 dex delays until 5.01 cannot abort until 6.15.

 

Dont get rid of or get fetting about delay, merely put in this sort of minimum time delay so that the instant abort reset doesn't bite you.

 

Delaying your Eb until init 1 is not the problem... being able to thus ignore the penalties by instant dodge is the problem.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by tesuji

Change the "cannot abort on a segment he has already acted in" to add in the following:

 

If your last action in a segment was at least half your usual dex (ie if dex 30 you acted between 30 and 15) you can abort immediately once the next segment starts.

 

If your last action was lower than half your dex (again dex 30 delays until somewhere in the 0-14 dex action) you cannot abort until the next phase at half your dex initiative.

 

SNIP SNIP

 

So, a guy with 30 dex delays until 5.01 cannot abort until 6.15.

Delaying your Eb until init 1 is not the problem... being able to thus ignore the penalties by instant dodge is the problem.

 

And the wheel comes full circle (see initial post). I agree with your point - the example problem, actually, was "wait until the end of Dex 1 and Rapid Fire, then abort to Dodge at the start of the next segment.

 

While one could add a lot of fine tuning (eg. depends how long you delayed; depends whether your last action took a full phase, etc.), your solution is straightforward and failry simple, and would force the character to suffer the drawbacks of the maneuver he selected for at least some period of time, regardless of when he decided to use it.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by tesuji

Change the "cannot abort on a segment he has already acted in" to add in the following:

 

If your last action in a segment was at least half your usual dex (ie if dex 30 you acted between 30 and 15) you can abort immediately once the next segment starts.

 

If your last action was lower than half your dex (again dex 30 delays until somewhere in the 0-14 dex action) you cannot abort until the next phase at half your dex initiative..

 

Although this is inovative it is not very play friendly and does not simulate the genre.

 

Would you really want to be the GM when 2 or 3 people hold under this system?

 

There is no initiative or Dex count in Hero. You are inventing a mechanic that does not exist. There is your phase, your half phase, the segment and the bottom of the phase inclusive.

 

As for thsi being genre. . .

 

Because I wait to see if the master villan is going to attack normal 1 or normal 2 I should be unable to abort to dive to cover and save someone from his henchman the next segment?

 

Although I understand your thinking, you have created a problem much bigger than the the first.

 

At least my opinion YMV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Keneton

As for thsi being genre. . .

 

Because I wait to see if the master villan is going to attack normal 1 or normal 2 I should be unable to abort to dive to cover and save someone from his henchman the next segment?

 

Although I understand your thinking, you have created a problem much bigger than the the first.

 

The initial problem being "Because I wait until DEX 1 instead of attacking at my own DEX, I can abort instantaneously to remove all penalties from Rapid Fire and enhance by DCV through a dodgeand/or reallocation of skill levels".

 

It comes down to weighing the drawbacks. In my campaign, the "delay/abort" combination has not been abused, so I am not inclined to change the rules. Why act to prevent an abuse that isn't happening?

 

However, to go back to your example, it seems to me it's very genre that, while the hero's attention is focused on one thing, something else is happenijng. Eg. while the hero is saving people from a burning building (or defending one normal from the master villain's attack), his DNPC is kidnapped (or the villains' henchmen act against someone else).

 

At present, if you delay from your phase in 5 to the villain's phase in 6 (DEC 30), then act to defend the normals, you cannot abort to protect someone from his henchmen at DEX 12. Why would it be any less "genre" that you delay from your phase in 6 to the very end of phase 7, then act, and now cannot abort at DEX 30 on phase 8?

 

The mechanic of breaking time down into discrete segments is necessary to manage game play, but the characters would, IMO, have a tough time differentiating between a millisecond passing between Dex 30 and Dex 29, and a millisecond passing between the very end of segment 6 and the very start or segment 7.

[tesuji]

Keneton...

 

in your is it genre... you left out "and takes an action" between delaying and the abort.

 

regarding the whole issue of "is it genre to have the rules prevent abortive actions soon after an action is taken"... is IRRELEVENT.

 

The rules already have such a delay. For whatever time is left between action and end of segment, you cannot abort. PERIOD. If you act on dex 30, then you cannot abort to save the peons until next segment, some 29 dex tics later.

 

Thats in and accepted.

 

Saying that this count does not go away if you delay until the end of the segment is no more "not genre than that."

 

As for dex count and init, i am certain that in your games, you use the dex of the characters, as hero suggests, to determine the order actions occur within the segment. Do you call them init or dex count or tics? beats me, but they are there, they are used, THEY DO EXIST.

 

If all you want to do is argue glossary, go for it dude.

 

If your players will be unnecessarily burdened by having to remember this when they just took the delayed action late in the turn, then I would suggest you do not use it. Of course, if it happens that frequently, it sounds like you are already seeing it quite a bit.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

However, to go back to your example, it seems to me it's very genre that, while the hero's attention is focused on one thing, something else is happenijng. Eg. while the hero is saving people from a burning building (or defending one normal from the master villain's attack), his DNPC is kidnapped (or the villains' henchmen act against someone else).

 

At present, if you delay from your phase in 5 to the villain's phase in 6 (DEC 30), then act to defend the normals, you cannot abort to protect someone from his henchmen at DEX 12. Why would it be any less "genre" that you delay from your phase in 6 to the very end of phase 7, then act, and now cannot abort at DEX 30 on phase 8?

 

The mechanic of breaking time down into discrete segments is necessary to manage game play, but the characters would, IMO, have a tough time differentiating between a millisecond passing between Dex 30 and Dex 29, and a millisecond passing between the very end of segment 6 and the very start or segment 7.

 

I think you may not have understood my post. You are actually agreeing with me. I meant (If I was unclear) that it is genre to be able to hold and react then abort at the top of the next segement. The penalty is that now you cannot abort again until after your Dex in your next phase. I do understand the mechanics.

 

I agree if its not an abuse do not change it. My solutions avoid changing game mechanics in favor of a reasonable adjustment (requiring a perception roll). This actually fits with the spirit of the present rule.