Density Increase question

[Desdinova]

I noticed that a character cannot have Density increase with the limitation always on. I had a character from the 4th edition I want to convert point for point, now it seems he would cost more in the new rules

[Steve Long]

This isn't a rules question, so I've moved it to the Discussion area.

[Bengal]

Even though D.I. is technically inefficient, I find it turns out to be abusive if you buy it up to O End Persistent Always On. The usefulness of the ability outstrips its point total. In addition, you have to redesign every building and piece of equipment your PCs have in order to accommodate the 32,000 ton brick character who, let's face it- would just fall right through to the center of the Earth after one good smack. At the very least, he shouldn't be able to walk on wood floors or be allowed inside most buildings.

 

 

Better to simulate it by buying all the attendant "Density" abilities seperately (most are already always on) and buying a much milder Physical Limitation: Great Mass (something on the order of 2 tons, the weight of a large pickup truck) and giving all the powers density SFX.

[Jhamin]

Three things:

 

1 - You may have answered your own question. It is generally held that Str is already real cheap and if buying Growth or Density Increase "always on" is a way of getting it even cheaper then you may have a character that is too efficient. I haven't run the numbers on this, but I suspect that the rule was changed partly for that reason.

 

2 - This was partly done to make nonhumans in Hero system much more consistant (dogs, cats, whales). Shrinking was the real problem but Growth was altered to keep it in line. A infant would end up being more points than a typical street tough because they would have to buy all those levels of shrinking to represent their size. Then further wierdness ensues when they grow up and get better in every way but actually lose points because their levels of shrinking go away.

 

3 - It is generally not a good idea to convert from 4th to 5th point for point. Alot of rules have changed (as you have noticed) but there are also alot of new options and modifiers. I have found alot of charcters are now easier to model than they were before using the new options. While you could plunk a 4th ed character into 5th and they work just fine 90% of the time you are usually better off going back to the concept you were trying to model in 4th and see if 5th doesn't make it easier to buy in a slightly different way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Jhamin

1 - You may have answered your own question. It is generally held that Str is already real cheap and if buying Growth or Density Increase "always on" is a way of getting it even cheaper then you may have a character that is too efficient. I haven't run the numbers on this, but I suspect that the rule was changed partly for that reason.

 

While there is some efficiency, don't forget that the STR from these powers don't grant figured characteristics. Since 10 poiints of STR grants 11 points of figured characteristics, this strips out a ot of the efficiency.

 

Even ignoring the prohibition against growth and DI always on, the character would not stat out point for point anyway, as I would suggest such a character's DI/Growth would need to be Inherent, as well as Persistent, to model the effect. Since Inherent is new to 5e, that's a new cost.

 

I haven't done the math, but I suspect DI/Growth Al ON would likely still be efficient provided you wanted all those abilities )(eg. that you would have bought +10 BOD for your 10 levels Growth character).

[BoneDaddy]

Desdinova - Fine nom de plume you've chosen. It boggles my mind that Imaginos isn't available on CD. I've spent way too much time trying to make sense of Del Rio's Song

[AnotherSkip]

Keep in mind that if youare converting over the 5th book suggests you just add whatever points you need and if you save some(after you pay for the increased cost) then you got some bennies outta the deal...

[Gary]

Str is cheaper than DI always on.

 

+40 str gets you +8 PD +8 Rec +20 Stun +8" leap. For 40 pts.

 

6 levels of DI 0 end persistent always on for 40 pts gets you

 

+30 str +6 PD +6 ED +6" knockback resistance.

 

With the str, you get +10 str, +2 PD, +8 Rec, +20 stun, +8" leap advantage or 46 pts and +10 str with no figured.

 

With the DI, you get +6 ED and +6" KBR for 18 pts worth of additional stuff.

 

With always on Growth, it's a different story. At low levels of growth, buying straight Str is more efficient using the same analysis as with DI. With high levels of growth, the growth begins to have an advantage since every 3 levels of growth doubles your reach. That's a lot of points of 0 end stretching that you're getting.

 

However, most people wouldn't normally buy 8" or 16" of 0 end stretching, so the value of that benefit doesn't really equal the points theoretically "saved".

 

In general, buying straight Str is better than buying Always On Growth or DI, unless you stick the growth or DI in an elemental control.