Mass Foci Purchase

[Metaphysician]

In 5th Edition, you can purchase "extra" foci for only +5 per doubling of the number ( One 10 point focus costs 10, 2 cost 15, 4 20, etc ).

 

For vehicles, bases, and followers, one can use the same mechanic to purchase different types of vehicles, bases, followers, so long as all are less than or equal to the purchased point value. I *think* that you can even "split up" the points; if you purchase eight 100 point vehicles, you can spend one "vehicle slot" to purchase two 50 point vehicles.

 

Could the same mechanic be used to purchase focus-based powers en masse, such as weapons, magical items, gadgets, etc?? Also, what mechanic would be used to replace or modify such gadgets?? Skill checks and DM discretion??

[Lord Liaden]

This rule regarding multiple Foci is one I'm still torn over. On the one hand I can see how it's consistent in principle with the mechanic for doubling of vehicles, followers, Summoned beings etc. OTOH there are certain balancing factors inherent to those other constructs which I don't see here.

 

In general a character can use only one Base or Vehicle at a time, so in practice having multiple ones doesn't affect in-game use a great deal. Multiple Followers can be a real benefit, but they're still under GM control and so can't be considered usable at will by the character, unless they have an appropriate Psych Lim (for which the Follower gets no Disadvantage points). The adder for Summoning multiple creatures is factored into the cost of Summon when adding Advantages such as Loyalty.

 

Unless I'm missing an important factor, one can build a powerful weapon as a Focussed Power with a lot of Active Points, and then for a mere +10 points have four of them that you could use for Multiple-Power Attacks, have four times as many Charges if applicable, require four times as many actions by an opponent to disarm if they're Accessible, etc. This just makes me really uncomfortable. And the idea of expanding the options for this as Metaphysician suggests makes me even more so.

 

I'm sorry, Meta, I guess that wasn't much help. I'll try to be more constructive: If we follow the examples for Followers and Vehicles in printed books, in which you can have X number of them of "up to" Y number of points, then it should logically follow that you can have a variety of Foci via the doubling rule as long as they are of equal or less Active Points. I would probably add that they should have a minimum Focus Limitation as well, which applies to all such Foci. Mind you, the examples I've seen in the books are for duplicates of a particular Focus; if that was made a requirement for any doubling of Foci, that would be a little more balanced.

 

If the multiple Foci are all commonly available, such as guns, or something the character has ready access to like personal technology, replacing them would not be a serious in-game issue however many they might have. If they're harder to come by a GM should probably work out with the player how much time and/or effort replacing one of these items would be, and then multiply that as needed.

[Bengal]

This is an intriguing thread. I'm looking for an answer hee. Who can say?

 

Now, if you have multiple foci, can each do a different thing, or do they have to be identical? Can you buy an advantage to make a percentage of the points differ from one and the other? Sort of like Duplication.

[Killer Shrike]

Im not crazy about being able to double gadgets for 5 points, but luckily none of my players have yet tried it, so it hasnt come up yet.....

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

In 5th Edition' date=' you can purchase "extra" foci for only +5 per doubling of the number ( One 10 point focus costs 10, 2 cost 15, 4 20, etc ).[/quote']

 

I know that this is in the book, but I can't seem to find it. What chapter and section is it in (chapter and section, please, not just page number)?

[Gary]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

You can effectively get the same thing by purchasing a multipower gadget.

 

40 Multipower 60 pt reserve OIF

4u Attack slot

4u Defense slot

4u Movement slot

4u Utility slot

 

And then simply buy 4 of them for +10 pts. Now you have gadget 1 always in the attack slot, gadget 2 always in the defense slot, gadget 3 always in the movement slot, and gadget 4 always in the utility slot.

 

Voila, paying 10 extra points has all your bases covered. And it's dirt cheap to pay +5 or +10 more points if you worry about having some of your foci lost or damaged.

[caris]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

I know that this is in the book' date=' but I can't seem to find it. What chapter and section is it in (chapter and section, please, not just page number)?[/quote']

Chapter Four: Equipment

Introduction

Building and Buying Equipment

2nd paragraph

 

alternatively Fred page 309

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

Thanks.

 

I wanted to check the H5 text to make sure I would be interpreting the rules correctly if I told a player who tried something ridiculous, such as the Multipower Gary describes, to stop wasting my time and make up a serious character.

 

From the description in the book, it's clear that the character shouldn't expect to be able to use all of the gadgets simultaneously. It's also clear that it's a GM option that the character can spend 5 points for back-up gadgets at all.

 

So if the GM has any sense, this rule isn't a problem.

[Gary]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

Thanks.

 

I wanted to check the H5 text to make sure I would be interpreting the rules correctly if I told a player who tried something ridiculous, such as the Multipower Gary describes, to stop wasting my time and make up a serious character.

 

From the description in the book, it's clear that the character shouldn't expect to be able to use all of the gadgets simultaneously. It's also clear that it's a GM option that the character can spend 5 points for back-up gadgets at all.

 

So if the GM has any sense, this rule isn't a problem.

 

 

Per Steve Long, you can use all your gadgets simultaneously.

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18439&highlight=doubling

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

Now' date=' if you have multiple foci, can each do a different thing, or do they have to be identical? Can you buy an advantage to make a percentage of the points differ from one and the other? Sort of like Duplication.[/quote']

 

They have to be completely identical.

[caris]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

Thanks.

 

I wanted to check the H5 text to make sure I would be interpreting the rules correctly if I told a player who tried something ridiculous, such as the Multipower Gary describes, to stop wasting my time and make up a serious character.

 

From the description in the book, it's clear that the character shouldn't expect to be able to use all of the gadgets simultaneously. It's also clear that it's a GM option that the character can spend 5 points for back-up gadgets at all.

 

So if the GM has any sense, this rule isn't a problem.

Actually, the rule isn't for "back up" weapons. Your character can replace a non-unique focus fairly easily, so saying you have a spare balster back at home may not be a big deal with your GM. There are a couple "official" characters, who from their write up it is clear that they are intended to use both the original and the duplicate at the same time. A number of vehicles in UV are built this way, and Shugoshin from CU are built this way.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

Actually' date=' the rule isn't for "back up" weapons[/quote']

 

Incorrect.

 

This is a quick and easy way to simulate characters who carry a lot of a "back up" weapons or who want to own a fleet of vehicles.

 

As for published characters being abusive or illegal, that is hardly new. It is never safe to assume that a published character is written correctly.

[caris]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

Incorrect.

 

 

 

As for published characters being abusive or illegal, that is hardly new. It is never safe to assume that a published character is written correctly.

????????

 

Uh, yeah, so how else are we to divine the "official" intent than from things the writer did himself? I'm sorry, but the write ups have been made with it clear that the closest these things come to as "back up" are in that you have more than one on you, when it comes to the focus.

 

Also, once would be a mistake, twice coincidence, but the several in UV? I don't think so, that speaks of intent.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

This is one place where I think one has to consider game balance vs. logic, and also factor in comic-book logic and precedent.

 

Does Batman have more than one utility belt? Sure, he just can't wear more than one, but you can bet that if he loses one, he can just go back to the Batcave and get another readily enough. Hell, he might carry a spare in the Batmobile for all I know.

 

In STARMAN, we've seen that both Ted Knight and Jack Knight had multiples of their cosmic weapons, in case one was damaged. They didn't carry two at the same time, though - and in Jack's case, that wouldn't have worked well anyhow, as his was a large, two-handed weapon (a staff). We've also seen the Knights - and, recently, Courtney (Stargirl), in JSA - rebuilding the weapons when they were damaged/destroyed.

 

So, it makes sense that characters should be able to have more than one of an item defined as built by, or within the availble technological level of a character or the general campaign. Nightwind, in the official books, is an example - he carries two Desert Eagle pistols. I'm sure there are dual-sword folks in the books, too, somewhere. (EDIT - Yep, there's at least one sword guy. Someone above mentioned Shugoshin.)

 

Now let us consider an item like Gary proposed. We know what it does, from the game stats, but what *is* it, other than an OIF? Is it a suit, like Alpha Flight's Guardian wears? If so, it makes no sense to wear more than one. Is it a belt, like the one Stargirl wears? Same thing. So, the character can have more than one, they just can't use more than one at the same time. Having a back-up is still useful, though, in case one gets Dispelled, Transformed, taken away, smashed or whatever. One can even use this against a character, depending how careful the player has the character be with his identical gear. If the character keeps an extra at the team HQ or in his super-vehicle and a villain breaks into the HQ or vehicle, this provides a great way for a villain to use the hero's powers against him or her, frame the hero, etc.

 

On the other hand, if one OIF is a powersuit and the other a pair of wristbands, they are *not* identical foci, even if they do the exact same thing, so they are not eligible for the +5 Doubling Rule at all.

 

Now, if the foci in question is something like a Green Lantern-style ring, you can't use the same logic, because there's no reason a person can't wear more than one ring at the same time. Just look at Puffy Combs or any number of rap guys to see this is the case. Or Elton John. Or Mr. T.

 

Here's where the GM would be, IMHO, completely in rights to call on "game logic." The item is built as a Multipower - it can only do one thing at a time, rather than providing all the powers at once. If I was concerned by the game-balance ramifications of Multi-Ring Man, I'd just rule that there's a reason the device can do only one thing at a time in the first place, rather than just having weak batteries. Namely, I'd rule that when in use at full power, the device gives off an energy field that interferes with any other identical devices being active on the same person at the same time. Thus, the only way you can have more than one active at the same time is to have each active at much less than full power (half-power for two items, 1/3 power for three, etc. Congratulations, you just spent extra points for essentially turning your MP into one with a bunch of m slots rather than u slots. Of course, you can still wear more than one - which might still be useful on occasion - but you can only use one at the same time.

 

Is this correct to the letter of the rules? No. Is it correct within the spirit of the rules and the game? Yeah. Multipowers are supposed to provide a point savings, but at some cost. The same with Power Limitations, such as Focus. Many game constructs are inherently limited - a gun Multipower, for example, with 6 different settings providing different attacks, gives you versatility, but you can't use them all at the same time through one item - at most you might be able to do two if you have a duplicate gun and Two-Weapon Fighting or do a Multiple Powers Attack (assuming the GM even allows that option). Putting more than a bunch of attack powers into a Multi provides a lot less flexibility, but potentially a lot of cost savings - and this principle is tossed out the window if you can cheaply produce multiple MPs to get around the Limitation... and as such, the GM is perfectly justified in using whatever logic necessary to call upon the "just say no" principle.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

...GM is perfectly justified in using whatever logic necessary to call upon the "just say no" principle.

 

Eminently reasonable.

[zornwil]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

You can effectively get the same thing by purchasing a multipower gadget.

 

40 Multipower 60 pt reserve OIF

4u Attack slot

4u Defense slot

4u Movement slot

4u Utility slot

 

And then simply buy 4 of them for +10 pts. Now you have gadget 1 always in the attack slot, gadget 2 always in the defense slot, gadget 3 always in the movement slot, and gadget 4 always in the utility slot.

 

Voila, paying 10 extra points has all your bases covered. And it's dirt cheap to pay +5 or +10 more points if you worry about having some of your foci lost or damaged.

If taking the focus limitation at a given level, I think from a gameplay perspective, the caveat, from the GM if the player didn't themselves volunteer it, would be that it would still be possible to lose the MP focus and have it gone for a considerable time.

 

The way I would see the typical multi-focus MP would be like Batman's utility belt - the whole belt could be removed and taken, and Batman would have to go back to the Batcave and spend time getting his duplicated one together, including spending some time in so doing. But each individual component could also be messed with or taken (and similarly Batman would have to go back again as well).

[JMHammer]

Re: Mass Foci Purchase

 

A couple of old threads here:

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6298

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6311

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6309

 

First two are my questions to Steve and his answers. Third is the group discussion.

 

John H