Giving powers to others.

[M-3]

I'm working on creating the magic systems for a fantasy campaign at the moment. A relatively common type of spell is one that does effectively gives some power to whomever it is cast on - the caster himself or somebody else - for a limited time.

 

Now, I'm finding that there isn't really any good way of doing this in HERO. I mean there are ways, but they're not really good ways for my purposes.

There's transform but it's a bit handwavey how long a power granted this way would last. The options for recovering from Transform assume that the effect of the Transform is something undesirable. If you've been transformed in a beneficial way, you could just avoid whatever would cause you to recover and thus retain your power effectively forever. Also, the caster wouldn't be able to use the power on himself.

Then there's the Usable on Others advantage, which at first seems about right, but I find it annoying that the number of people who can enjoy the benefits of the power at any one time is limited to a set number. I don't really think it makes sense for tha mages in my fantasy campaign to be unable to turn more than a handful of people invisible at the time, if they have the END to do so. And then there's the whole END cost mess. Either the target pays the END cost (it's exhausting to be turned invisible?) or it's bought as Usable as an attack which makes the whole thing horrendously expensive.

 

*phew*

Excuse, I'll just need a cuppa - my throat is all dried up after all that typing.

 

*Sllrrrp*

Ahh, all better.

 

All of this brings me to the Aid power which the book explicitly instructs me NOT to use for this purpose. However, since it fails to provide me with any reason not to do so, I'll just ignore that admonition for the moment and go straight ahead and at least consider doing it anyway.

The problems with using Aid for this purpose are:

·The randomness of the dice rolls. Okay, I'll just use average rolls. 3.5 points granted to target for every 10 character points.

·The power fades a little at a time which isn't really what I want. I'll just apply a lim that makes the whole power fade away after one time increment.

·I don't want the power to add to any existing powers the target may have, so I'll just use another limitation to make it always start from scratch.

Now I have a neat system for giving powers to other characters or myself. And with the Costs END, I can even create a power with duration that costs END to activate but none to maintain. However, it's still a bit complex and nature of the limitations above suggest that perhaps I should just treat this as a whole new power.

So that's what I've decided to do.

I'm calling this power "Bestow":

 

Bestow

Adjustment power

Instant

No Range

With this adjustment power, a character can temporarily bestow a power upon himself or another character. The character can grant 1 point of power for every 2 points in Bestow. The power to be bestowed must be fully designed with whatever Advantages and Limitations are desired when the character buys Bestow. The bestowed power lasts for 1 Turn and then fades completely. This time interval can be moved one step down the Time Chart for every +(1/4) advantage. A bestowed power can be affected by other Adjustment powers. Bestow costs END.

Bestow: Cost is 2 pts for every 1 point of power(s) to be bestowed upon somebody else.

 

Does anybody see any really catastrophic problems with this power?

[Talon]

Posting a writeup of how you arrived at the cost would be helpful.

 

I would make upping the duration at least a +1/2 Advantage.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, first off there's an issue I'd like to have clarified: how do the points in Bestow relate to any Limitations that the Bestowed Power will have? Can it/does it have to take the same Lims, and/or any other Limitations that apply specifically to Bestow? My feeling is that for game balance, the Power should just be based on the Active Points in the ability Bestowed, regardless of whatever Limitations go into that ability when it's built. Of course YMMV.

 

Secondly, regarding Transform: the conditions under which the person changes back to their normal form can be anything you define them to be. If you want them to lose the bestowed Power after one Turn, there's nothing that says you can't. If you feel that that's exceptionally restrictive compared to what Transform normally does, I could see justifying a -1/4 "Limited Duration" custom Limitation for it.

 

Third, the cost of Usable On Others: personally I feel that the ability to give any number of people special powers that they don't normally have and never payed Character Points for should be relatively expensive. If the cost of this really disturbs you, and adding Limitations to the construct to bring the cost down doesn't seem fair, you might want to look into the various campaign ground-rule methods for reducing the cost of magic spells suggested in Fantasy HERO.

 

(BTW, maybe it is exhausting to be turned Invisible. You ever try it?)

[M-3]

Posting a writeup of how you arrived at the cost would be helpful.

 

Certainly: I made it up arbitrarily.

 

Well, okay, I started with the Aid power. One average, Aid gives an extra 3.5 points worth of abilities per 10 character points of Aid. However, since Bestow costs END and adds to existing powers (where Bestow merely gives a redundant power to somebody who already has the power being bestowed), and it's all-or-nothing (you can't grant a power a little at a time, and the whole thing fades at once), I found it fair to let it be a little cheaper, so I made it 5 points granted for every 10 points worth of power, which works out to the same as 1 point for every 2 points of power.

 

So, basically, I looked a bit at Aid, then made it up arbitrarily.

 

Well, first off there's an issue I'd like to have clarified: how do the points in Bestow relate to any Limitations that the Bestowed Power will have? Can it/does it have to take the same Lims, and/or any other Limitations that apply specifically to Bestow? My feeling is that for game balance, the Power should just be based on the Active Points in the ability Bestowed, regardless of whatever Limitations go into that ability when it's built.

The same way that Aid does: Not at all.

That is: The points bestowed are to all intents and purposes "real points" for as long as they last.

So first you design the power to be bestowed, then buy the power to bestow that power.

Example:

Let's say I want something like D&D's invisibility spell and I'm designing it with the "default" HERO magic system in mind.

First I buy a power that works like the invisibility spell from D&D: Invisibility to Sight (20pts), No END Cost* (+1/2), Only when not attacking (-1/2), Cannot become invisible again after having become visible for any reason (-1/2).

That's 30 Active points and a Real cost of 15 which is the number of points which I'll have to bestow. Since it's 2 points worth of Bestow to grant 1 point worth of a power, that's 30 points base, I'll have to put into my Bestow.

Since I obviously want the invisibility to last more than 12 seconds, I'm moving it 5 steps up the Time Chart for a +1 1/4 advantage, so it's now a 67 Active points power.

With RSR, Incantations, Gestures and perhaps an OAF, this works out to 22 Real points, a -7 to the Skill roll, and an END cost of 7.

*The no END cost is for the bestowed power: The invisibility costs no END to use, but bestowing the power on someone still does.

 

Whenever I cast this spell on somebody, I make it possible for them to turn invisible for 6 hours or until they attack someone.

 

Secondly, regarding Transform: the conditions under which the person changes back to their normal form can be anything you define them to be. If you want them to lose the bestowed Power after one Turn, there's nothing that says you can't. If you feel that that's exceptionally restrictive compared to what Transform normally does, I could see justifying a -1/4 "Limited Duration" custom Limitation for it.

 

Yes, but it seems somewhat impractical that the default duration is effectively "forever and ever" when the effects are beneficial and that reducing it is a limitation. And it doesn't seem very reasonable to me either, that it's tougher to grant a beneficial effect to somebody with high BODY than to someone with a poor BODY score.

 

Third, the cost of Usable On Others: personally I feel that the ability to give any number of people special powers that they don't normally have and never payed Character Points for should be relatively expensive. If the cost of this really disturbs you, and adding Limitations to the construct to bring the cost down doesn't seem fair, you might want to look into the various campaign ground-rule methods for reducing the cost of magic spells suggested in Fantasy HERO.

 

There's two parts to this, and I'll start with the last: The options for reducing the cost of spells: I only want to make it a little cheaper (and IMO a lot simpler) to cast spells that have temporary beneficial effects - not to reduce the costs of other types of magic such as, say, fireballs.

 

Now for the first: It's not just the cost of UBO that disturbs me but also the complexity. And the Bestow power as described above is pretty expensive. Also, the ability to grant any number of people special powers that they never paid points for is IMO no more unbalancing than granting any number of people more points of a power than they paid points for as you can already do with Aid.

(If I had spent the points above on an Aid to DEX, I could have given them 3D6 points worth of DEX that would fade at a rate of 5 character points/6 hours. Or on average 3 extra points of DEX for an extra +1 CV. Compared to 6 hours worth of invisibility that ends if you attack someone or choose to become visible, that sounds about right to me)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giving powers to others.

 

Originally posted by M-3

Bestow

 

Does anybody see any really catastrophic problems with this power?

 

You've more or less reinvented the wheel here. Use Usable By Others with the Differing Modifiers rules instead; you'll save yourself some points.

 

Edit: Okay, maybe you won't save many points depending on how you work the final result. But it shouldn't be too hard to finagle a "fades automatically after X" Limitation on it which should bring the cost down.

[Killer Shrike]

There's an extensive Arkelos Example under UBO detailing how to set up a UBO power that has different limitations for the granter and the grantee.

 

UBO is expensive because its a powerful, potentially game breaking ability. If it were cheap, every character would suddenly be able to lend their Powers to one another. It could well mean the end of life as we know it as the Multiverse spins out of control and then implodes.

 

Granted, thats a worst case scenario, but I dont think we want to take that chance.....

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by M-3

Let's say I want something like D&D's invisibility spell and I'm designing it with the "default" HERO magic system in mind.

First I buy a power that works like the invisibility spell from D&D: Invisibility to Sight (20pts), No END Cost* (+1/2), Only when not attacking (-1/2), Cannot become invisible again after having become visible for any reason (-1/2).

That's 30 Active points and a Real cost of 15 which is the number of points which I'll have to bestow.

 

IIRC, the D&D Invisibility spell is permanent until the invisible person attacks. I could be wrong.

 

That said: doing it with UBO Differing Modifiers you get this:

 

Grant Invisibility. Usable By Others w/Differing Effects. Base Cost: 30 points. (See Edit paragraph below.)

 

Advantages: 0 Endurance Cost, Persistent (+1) Uncontrolled (+1/2) 75 Active Points.

 

Limitations: RSR, Gestures, Incantations, OAF. 21 Real Points.

 

0 END Cost and Persistent means that the Invisibility lasts after the target leaves the caster's line of sight. Since being invisible technically means he's out of your line of sight you'll want this anyway. Uncontrolled means that you use it once, then you're no longer connected to it and can use it again at any time.

 

Note that according to the description of Uncontrolled, the GM should carefully look at anything bought Uncontrolled, 0 END and Persistent, probably including a set duration as well as a means to shut off the Power. That's built into your description already; duration 6 hours*, shuts off if the invisible person attacks.

 

Edit: Just realized the Limitations on the base Invisibility double dip with this here. It should be 30 base points for the UBO, 75 Active, and 21 Real Points.

 

* I don't like 6 hours for mathematical reasons. If each level on the Time Chart is approximately 5 times the level before it, 5 hours is closer to 5 times 1 hour than 6 hours is, and 1 day is closer to 5 times 5 hours than it is 5 times 6 hours. YMMV.

[SaintQuakko]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

There's an extensive Arkelos Example under UBO detailing how to set up a UBO power that has different limitations for the granter and the grantee.

 

UBO is expensive because its a powerful, potentially game breaking ability. If it were cheap, every character would suddenly be able to lend their Powers to one another. It could well mean the end of life as we know it as the Multiverse spins out of control and then implodes.

 

Granted, thats a worst case scenario, but I dont think we want to take that chance.....

Note to self: Characters from now on must be built SOLELY using the "Usable By Other" advantage... Even characteristics...

[M-3]

IIRC, the D&D Invisibility spell is permanent until the invisible person attacks. I could be wrong.

 

It's 10 minutes/level of caster or until you attack someone.

 

That said: doing it with UBO Differing Modifiers you get this:

 

Grant Invisibility. Usable By Others w/Differing Effects. Base Cost: 30 points. (See Edit paragraph below.)

 

Advantages: 0 Endurance Cost, Persistent (+1) Uncontrolled (+1/2) 75 Active Points.

 

Limitations: RSR, Gestures, Incantations, OAF. 21 Real Points.

 

0 END Cost and Persistent means that the Invisibility lasts after the target leaves the caster's line of sight. Since being invisible technically means he's out of your line of sight you'll want this anyway. Uncontrolled means that you use it once, then you're no longer connected to it and can use it again at any time.

 

Note that according to the description of Uncontrolled, the GM should carefully look at anything bought Uncontrolled, 0 END and Persistent, probably including a set duration as well as a means to shut off the Power. That's built into your description already; duration 6 hours*, shuts off if the invisible person attacks.

 

Emphasis added by yours truly.

 

The Aid-like build of the Bestow power avoids that whole bit with the quasi-arbitrary duration. In addition, it lets me create a power that costs END to give to someone else but none to maintain.

(This could be an issue in a fantasy world where the END used for spells come from a pool that recharges more slowly than a character's regular END - a power that costs no END at all would be extremely powerful in such a campaign, but one that cost END every phase would be impossible to maintain for more than about a half minute or so)

[Talon]

The problem I see with Bestow is that it doesn't take Limitations into account. For example, the Bestow for Improved Invisibility (doesn't end when the character attacks) would be the same.

[Chris Goodwin]

Me:

Note that according to the description of Uncontrolled, the GM should carefully look at anything bought Uncontrolled, 0 END and Persistent, probably including a set duration as well as a means to shut off the Power.

 

M-3:

The Aid-like build of the Bestow power avoids that whole bit with the quasi-arbitrary duration.

 

The specific part you emphasized only affects a UBO bought 0 END, Persistent, and Uncontrolled. There's a lot of stuff in the Hero System that requires an "arbitrary" weakness or ability to shut off or reverse. Also, doing it this way doesn't require any new Powers or rules, a valid consideration when you're writing up characters for a convention game, getting into a one off game with people you don't know, starting a new campaign with a different GM, and the like.

 

In addition, it lets me create a power that costs END to give to someone else but none to maintain.

(This could be an issue in a fantasy world where the END used for spells come from a pool that recharges more slowly than a character's regular END - a power that costs no END at all would be extremely powerful in such a campaign, but one that cost END every phase would be impossible to maintain for more than about a half minute or so)

 

If you want it to cost END to give to someone but not to maintain, use +1/4 Costs END Only To Activate.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by M-3

The Aid-like build of the Bestow power avoids that whole bit with the quasi-arbitrary duration.

But it just replaces it with other arbitrariness, like the cost of Bestow.

 

I have no objection to new Powers and such per se; I've created some myself. But I don't think this is a case where a new Power is needed. This is one of the main things Usable By Others exists for.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by SaintQuakko

Note to self: Characters from now on must be built SOLELY using the "Usable By Other" advantage... Even characteristics...

The Amazing Modular Man!

[SaintQuakko]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

The Amazing Modular Man!

More like "The Banker!" His sole purpose in life is to lend power to others!

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by SaintQuakko

More like "The Banker!" His sole purpose in life is to lend power to others!

Really? What are his rates?

[SaintQuakko]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Really? What are his rates?

5% guaranteed over 2 years.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by SaintQuakko

5% guaranteed over 2 years.

Rated against Active Points loaned and Adjusted Risk Factor I presume....

 

I can see it now: The Broker....

 

Braincase: "Lend me your PD, now please!!!!! Im about to get pasted!"

 

The Broker: "That will be the standard rate of AP converted to dollars + 5%, and due to the severity of your need, an additional 10% Impact fee will be added, payable over 2 years at biannual recalculation of interest rates based upon the current state of the market...."

 

{Braincase gets hit by Bulging Thews and is thoroughly pasted}

 

The Broker: "Hmmm....maybe I need to shorten the sales pitch a bit"