The Mind Master Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Okay, just wanted to see if anyone else was as disappointed as I was that the new UNTIL book did not feature any maps of some of the more colorful bases. It would have been really great, for example, to have maps of the Gateway satellite and the undersea base. As a GM, I find base maps to be one of the most useful tools to help set up a scenario. That's the kind of thing I can't do easily on my own. The write-ups of bases aren't very useful by themselves. I don't really care what the point totals are for a location. (And sometimes they get a bit ridiculous. For example, spending points on Life Support to represent that a base has food stocks on hand. Why not just state that there are food supplies? What's next? Buying doors as entangle barriers usable by others? Come on.) A map, OTOH, complete with a key to explain what is in each room, is an immense help in gameplay. Am I the only one who feels that this is a glaring omission in the book? I could have done without the history of the UN and the stuff on international law. If ever needed for a game, enough background info could easily be looked up on the internet. I buy these books mainly for practical material to help me in the actual gameplay. I don't mean this to sound like a rant. I just wanted to make my opinion heard when future projects are being considered. And I wonder if there are others who feel like I do. This is a kind of survey to see what others like to see in sourcebooks of this type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Yeah, maps are nice. However, for organization books, the most important thing, IMHO, is detailed descriptions of how the organization operates, from its hierarchy to its usual tactics in battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Ideas ... sourcebooks give me good ideas to start from. And personalities, it's good to have characters made by other people to use since they're created from a different frame of mind than I have. As for Bases needing Life Support .. if the base is in Downtown City and running to the grocery store when you run out of Cheerio's is an easily accomplished tash then it is extranious. When the base is located a hundred forty seven miles above the planet then running out of Cheerios won't be an issue until you run out of CocoaPuffs and LuckyCharms and soon you've got a team of superheros staring at a box of stale Grapenuts going "I thought YOU went grocery shopping." THEN Life Support becomes important because it tells you how long before said super-team resorts to fighting over stale Grapenuts. It's also good for StarHero to represent getting stuck in space with no engines and wondering just how long before the food runs out... Of course, YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckB Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 To tell the truth , I'd rather see bases like Gateway treated as a separate boxed-set type deal complete with 25mm scale hex maps , cardboard minis , sourcebook , etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 i gotta go for maps, myself--but if i had my way, DOJ would pump up the ALL graphic aspects of it's products, 'cause i think visuals are the one weak link in CHAMPIONS.... i'm the type that needs visuals--text desciptions just don't bring a scenario, or character to life for me.... i think a good number of others feel the same way--look how popular storn cook's thread is, not to mention the character pix thread--storn's work has really breathed new life into the old CU.... my main negative critique's of the hero books, overall for the past 20 years are 1) there's not enough art! and 2) things, characters, places in the CU don't have a consistant look and feel.... i understand how DOJ wouldn't want to lock too much of the visuals down in order to make it's products usable by as many folks as possible--but i still feel the CU is in need of some serious art direction.... both D+D and WhiteWolf have had a lot of success with establlishing a distinctive look and feel for their universe--and i know DOJ's direct compeditor PALLADIUM had kevin long under contract for years in order to insure a consistant look for the various RIFTS products they put out.... despite the fact that champions is a game about comic book super-heroes, i don't think any of it's products look as dynamic as the genre they represent.... although things ARE improving--i just don't think things are quite there yet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 For me, maps run a close second to explicit scenario hooks like those in CKC. I can make my own maps in a pinch, but story ideas are a bit harder for me to come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by loraxxx i'm the type that needs visuals... As evidenced by your avatar... Seriously, though, I think that HERO products could use a little more artwork, and maybe a little more internal color. It doesn't make a difference for me, really, but I think loraxxx has a valid point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 The problem is, one of the best things about HERO products is the value. If they were full color, art-heavy, you'd get books with lower page counts and higher prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boll Weevil Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Combat I'd like to see a mini-comic with CU players and accompanying game descriptions. Since Fred, every DOJ book I've gotten has been chock-full of excellent power examples, even an entire book (UNTIL SPD) devoted to nothing but. BTW, I LOVE that book. To complete the package I would like to see the minicomic show a battle between, say, The Champions and GRAB or such. The left hand page shows the action between characters we all know. The right page would detail the action in game terms; all the rolls, all the sequences all the MP accounting etc. Since the first ed, the have had a short version of this sans graphics. Ogre robs a bank, Crusader is there on his lunchbreak. This is helpful but with Drains and Aids and Multipowers, expanded Entangle rules, a gazillion manuevers each with their own CV adjustments and rules, I would like to see more. It could be written like the old versions, "Okay Crusader, you see what looks like a big..." I'm less interested in that. Show me the numbers! Besides helping a marginal GM such as myself with tiny mechanics questions, such a comic would serve another greedy purpose. With rare exceptions, I have been out of the comic-buying game for a looooong time. Since I have gotten back into Champions (about a year before Fred), I have satisfied my comic jones with Hero products exclusively. I read CU and CKC write-ups with the same giddy anticipation as I once read comics. The stories are amazing, the characters are cool, the settings are deeper than Tolkein. Well, you know what I mean. With every new supplement my fascination with the CU grows deeper. Thanks DOJ. I've been a Hero fan for 22 years but the stories keep me coming back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher As evidenced by your avatar... Seriously, though, I think that HERO products could use a little more artwork, and maybe a little more internal color. It doesn't make a difference for me, really, but I think loraxxx has a valid point. holy kow!!--i got "kristophered," and didn't take any BODY.... the avatar was MAYDAY's idea, BTW--or at least that's the story i'm going with for now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Metaphysician The problem is, one of the best things about HERO products is the value. If they were full color, art-heavy, you'd get books with lower page counts and higher prices. PALLADIUM manages to keep the page count up and the cost down three ways 1) they (or at least used to) keep a fairly prolific artist on salary--that way they don't have to pay buy the piece and wind up with lots of art to use; 2) they frequently re-use art, especially the pics detailing gadgets, gizmos, weapons and such; 3) kevin does ALOT of the art himself.... my suggestion would be for HERO to see if they could hire 1 or 2 aspiring COMIC BOOK artists to do a bunch of panels, splash pages, and spot illos depicting characters and situations from the CU--they been doing a lot of that lately, but the artists they've been using aren't comic artists, so the illos generally don't have that super-hero "feel" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badger3k Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Just to chime in on the artwork angle. I agree they need more. The Freedom City thread made me look through the M&M books, and they use art well. I don't need color, but more artwork would be nice, especially some action-oriented art (or the several panel strips that some games - including some older ones - have used). I do like the narratives for characters and such - I think they are top rate, and are always an interesting read, but some visuals would be a plus. I know its an economic issue, but maybe when DOJ gets bigger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cubist Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by loraxxx PALLADIUM manages to keep the page count up and the cost down three ways 1) they (or at least used to) keep a fairly prolific artist on salary--that way they don't have to pay buy the piece and wind up with lots of art to use; 2) they frequently re-use art, especially the pics detailing gadgets, gizmos, weapons and such; 3) kevin does ALOT of the art himself.... my suggestion would be for HERO to see if they could hire 1 or 2 aspiring COMIC BOOK artists to do a bunch of panels, splash pages, and spot illos depicting characters and situations from the CU--they been doing a lot of that lately, but the artists they've been using aren't comic artists, so the illos generally don't have that super-hero "feel" Actually Palladium manages to keep the prices down by using poor bindings, covers that peel apart, recycled ART AND TEXT and generally putting out maybe ten pages of material that is actually useful per book. Kev is not just a raging egomaniac though, he's also a really bad artist who only sees his work in print because he owns the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by cubist Actually Palladium manages to keep the prices down by using poor bindings, covers that peel apart, recycled ART AND TEXT and generally putting out maybe ten pages of material that is actually useful per book. Kev is not just a raging egomaniac though, he's also a really bad artist who only sees his work in print because he owns the company. you sound like a former member of the detroit gaming community.... but really--i'm not suggesting that HERO copy the PALLADIUM format, just suggesting that there are ways to increase their amount of graphic content that won't break HERO'S bank--i'm using PALLADIUM as an example, 'cause i know the big "KS" is frugal with a dollar.... but really, are you from the "D" or have you jusy had some bad experiences here....? btw--all my PALLADIUM stuff has held together fine over the years--i'm not even going to think about arguing with you about kevin's ego, though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike W Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 One of the things that has been most useful to me is the Ultimate Martial Artist books. Not just the maneuver lists, though those have been very helpful but the origins(so I can give a character a geographical correct art) and the power listings. Those are the real "extras" that can help distinguish one martial artist from another. Boy did that Suppress Fire power come in handy last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cubist Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by loraxxx you sound like a former member of the detroit gaming community.... but really--i'm not suggesting that HERO copy the PALLADIUM format, just suggesting that there are ways to increase their amount of graphic content that won't break HERO'S bank--i'm using PALLADIUM as an example, 'cause i know the big "KS" is frugal with a dollar.... but really, are you from the "D" or have you jusy had some bad experiences here....? btw--all my PALLADIUM stuff has held together fine over the years--i'm not even going to think about arguing with you about kevin's ego, though.... ostly I've heard the first hand accounts of people he's screwed over that actually really halped to make his company, guys like Bill Coffin, I've had PBook news group and site board run-ins with his hag ex-wif and I was the one that started the online Jihad against the cover of the 2nd ed. book that he obliquely mentions in the introduction to that book. I never lost pages out of Palladium books, but have had broken bindings and almost every one of their books I've had over the years had that crappy laminate covering peel off the book's covers. And yes, he's even too cheap to get a proper layout program to make the books and does it all by hand, which explains the piss poor layout in his books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by cubist ostly I've heard the first hand accounts of people he's screwed over that actually really halped to make his company, guys like Bill Coffin, I've had PBook news group and site board run-ins with his hag ex-wif and I was the one that started the online Jihad against the cover of the 2nd ed. book that he obliquely mentions in the introduction to that book. I never lost pages out of Palladium books, but have had broken bindings and almost every one of their books I've had over the years had that crappy laminate covering peel off the book's covers. And yes, he's even too cheap to get a proper layout program to make the books and does it all by hand, which explains the piss poor layout in his books. ahh--the magic of the internet--it brings together people who normally would have no reason to ever speak to each other.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by The Mind Master What's next? Buying doors as entangle barriers usable by others? Come on.) Is this a joke? Everyone knows that you doors are only entagles if they have locks! We need to stay in focus here...doors don't stop people...locks do. unless you are an alien ina Mel Gibson movie) :)On the actual topic: My view of art is simple. realisticly, you are going to looks at this thing a couple of times, and then move on. It may inspire you, it may not. Having said that, each presented character needs a picture. I wasn't able to use that "Watchers of the Dragon" module for years because of a lack of artwork. Art is the first thing I look at. But, after the third time through, I am looking at content. Thats when I am looking at how and if I can use the stuff. Maps are always good, but HERO has never really had much success with them. Few game companies do, now that I think about it. In any case, floorplans and stuff are readily available on the net, or can be made easily with simple programs like paintbrush. What we really want are floorplans of superhero bases...There was a thread on here a while ago looking for plans of the Avengers mansion, surely better work can be done than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mind Master Posted March 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks Is this a joke? Everyone knows that you doors are only entagles if they have locks! We need to stay in focus here...doors don't stop people...locks do. unless you are an alien ina Mel Gibson movie) :)On the actual topic: My view of art is simple. realisticly, you are going to looks at this thing a couple of times, and then move on. It may inspire you, it may not. Having said that, each presented character needs a picture. I wasn't able to use that "Watchers of the Dragon" module for years because of a lack of artwork. Art is the first thing I look at. But, after the third time through, I am looking at content. Thats when I am looking at how and if I can use the stuff. Maps are always good, but HERO has never really had much success with them. Few game companies do, now that I think about it. In any case, floorplans and stuff are readily available on the net, or can be made easily with simple programs like paintbrush. What we really want are floorplans of superhero bases...There was a thread on here a while ago looking for plans of the Avengers mansion, surely better work can be done than that? Ghost, those are the kind of maps I'm talking about...maps of the most colorful bases of whatever agency the sourcebook is detailing. And I've seen a number of good ones in the past. I'm not talking about a map of an office building full of cubicles, if that's all it is. Yeah, I could do that myself or find one to download. I'm talking about things like the Undersea Base in UNTIL, which would be a cool spot for a scenario to take place...or the Gateway space station. The maps themselves suggest plot hooks. I find that players enjoy an element of exploring in the scenario, if it's a cool place. A running battle in a villain base whee you never know what you're going to find behind the next door is a heck of a lot of fun. Out of curiousity, why do you say that Hero hasn't had much success with them in the past? Question for those who have the books...do the new Viper and Coil sourcebooks provide maps of any of the agency bases? As for art, I think the Hero books have a good balance. I like an attractive layout, but I don't buy the books for the pictures, I buy them to give me some help in creating adventures for my players. And to me, the (interesting) maps are some of the most helpful things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 The VIPER book has maps for two Nests in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allen Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by The Mind Master Question for those who have the books...do the new Viper and Coil sourcebooks provide maps of any of the agency bases? Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth has maps for a VIPER Nest and one of COIL's secret lairs (since the organization is just getting underway in the 5E Champions Universe, it only has four bases... err... that is until you run the adventure and the PCs discover one of the bases. After that it's down to three. Such is the life of a mastervillain... ) VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent has maps for two Nests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by The Mind Master ....As for art, I think the Hero books have a good balance. I like an attractive layout, but I don't buy the books for the pictures, I buy them to give me some help in creating adventures for my players. And to me, the (interesting) maps are some of the most helpful things. i'd be willing to agree with you on the amount of art presented, especially in recent years, although i must admit, i'm using modules for the old V+V game as my standard.... they had a scenarios, character illos, maps and paper figures, plus mini comics and splash pages.... they weren't cheap, but they weren't overly expensive either (for the time), i'm pretty sure that had the system been as good as HERO they'd still be a major player in SHRPG.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mind Master Posted March 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by ghost-angel As for Bases needing Life Support .. if the base is in Downtown City and running to the grocery store when you run out of Cheerio's is an easily accomplished tash then it is extranious. When the base is located a hundred forty seven miles above the planet then running out of Cheerios won't be an issue until you run out of CocoaPuffs and LuckyCharms and soon you've got a team of superheros staring at a box of stale Grapenuts going "I thought YOU went grocery shopping." THEN Life Support becomes important because it tells you how long before said super-team resorts to fighting over stale Grapenuts. It's also good for StarHero to represent getting stuck in space with no engines and wondering just how long before the food runs out... Of course, YMMV. If the PC's paid for the ship in STAR HERO with their own character points, then I can sort of see this. But it's of no use to include character points spent in a base that is owned by NPC's. What possible relevance does it have on gameplay? A description and layout is much more useful. If a villain wants to poison this Life-Support food supply, for example, would he have to have some sort of life-support drain or supress? Could he steal the food, or burn it up? IMHO, the whole thing is silly. Just state that it has a food supply, and show me where the refrigeration units are where it is stored. And if there are refrigeration units, do they have to be bought as some sort of cold power, bought with a limitation (only to preserve perishable food items)? You see how ridiculous it gets. Yes, you need to know the game mechanics for any weaponry and defenses of a base, also sensor devices like radar or sonar, but not much beyond that needs to be put into game mechanic terms. It doesn't come into play. Maps, however, do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicGladiator Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by The Mind Master If the PC's paid for the ship in STAR HERO with their own character points, then I can sort of see this. But it's of no use to include character points spent in a base that is owned by NPC's. What possible relevance does it have on gameplay? A description and layout is much more useful. If a villain wants to poison this Life-Support food supply, for example, would he have to have some sort of life-support drain or supress? Could he steal the food, or burn it up? IMHO, the whole thing is silly. Just state that it has a food supply, and show me where the refrigeration units are where it is stored. And if there are refrigeration units, do they have to be bought as some sort of cold power, bought with a limitation (only to preserve perishable food items)? You see how ridiculous it gets. Yes, you need to know the game mechanics for any weaponry and defenses of a base, also sensor devices like radar or sonar, but not much beyond that needs to be put into game mechanic terms. It doesn't come into play. Maps, however, do. I tend to agree with your point about Life Support. Sometimes things get overly complicated when you try to look at things through the filter of "how would this work in game terms?" For example, it makes sense on one level to equip space vehicles with endurance reserve power packs and "auxiliary" endurance reserves if the first one should fail. But realistically, what GM is going to take the time to subtract the endurance from the battery for every system in operation in the ship's phase? What a nightmare! Easier just to assume that the ship's designers created a power system that can power all the ship's functions and let it go at that. To micro-simulate these things does get ridiculous. Does any GM really mess with this kind of stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckB Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by AtomicGladiator Does any GM really mess with this kind of stuff? Truth be told , I don't really see the point of making PCs spend points on bases. Seems to be more of a tool for GMs than for players. Gets PCs together quickly and is often used as a plot tool. The main purpose of a base is for it to get broken into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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