The Land Hero

[badger3k]

After I finish the Kane book I'm reading, I'm going to start on the Covenant series, mainly for the setting. I have an old White Dwarf (IIRC) that has 1st ed D&D stats for the ur-viles and the rest, but I wanted to toss this out now and see if anybody has suggestions on how to put this material into Hero.

 

While it'll take me a while to read the books again, I figured the earlier I start the better off I'll be.

 

Has anybody done anything with this setting?

 

So far, just off the top of my head, I came up with the following guidelines (sorry if my spelling is off, it's been more than 10 years since I read the books):

 

Haruchai (sp?)/Bloodguard -

LS:intense heat, cold, immortal, does not need to sleep

Combat luck/Dam Res (maybe) or high DCV (prob)

Martial Arts, KA with hands/feet

Stamina - 0 End with Str and Running (maybe all abilities it applies to)

more inches running - can't they keep up with horses?

Disad or limit some powers - Only when Vow is kept

 

Ranhyn (again, sp?) - maybe have Clairsentience (future) - know when it is called and disad - must come when called no matter what

 

Hurtloam - healing, some regenerative powers (no points prob, just SFX)

 

Giant Draught - Aid? Healing? with side effect - sleep

 

Berries - (elanthas?) - healing or aid rec/stun/end maybe

 

Cords/Manethralls - weapon is rope, HKA.

 

Kresh - overpowered Wolves

 

Ur-Viles:

enhanced scent, targeting with scent

Loremasters have acid, with limits (2d6k, +2d6 when 5 in wedge, +2d6 more when 10, etc - whatever the numbers may be). Can't remember what else they had.

 

Anybody with a clearer memory have any suggestions? I know I have a lot of data to play with for my campaign, but I got the bug to play with this (the Bloodguard Rock!) so I figured I'd ask for input.

[tkdguy]

From what I've read, lots of people hate Thomas Covenant because of his constant negative attitude, and the fact that he raped a girl in the first book. And people tend to die off because of their association with him.

 

Nevertheless, the Haruchai were pretty impressive. They're probably the best example of martial artists in fantasy novels.

 

I don't remember most of the stuff, but I recall Hurtloam may have side effects. Covenant claimed it was hurtloam that drove him mad, thus causing him to rape Lena. Of course, he may just have been covering his ass.

 

Ur-viles seemed to me like orcs/goblins (or whatever generic race enslved to evil). I didn't find them particularly noteworthy.

 

Giants, on the other hand, seemed interesting. Their culture included a strong oral tradition.

 

The Lords seemed to have some ritual magic at their disposal. The staff of a Lord had some power or significance.

[lensman]

It has been decades since I read the series but...

 

Cause and effect.

Covenant had leprosy, a form of it. He had no feling in his body, he has to perform visual checks on his body to look for cuts or bleeding because he woould not be able to tactilely feel such injuries.

 

Now imagine that this was part of your life for so very long, then after being transported to a place you are not sure is real ( and in fact wake up in hospital from a coma induced by an allergic reaction to a horse serum), you are healed by hurtloam and being to regain your tactile sense.

 

I believe that this is what the author was tring to indicate mught drive someone.

 

Thomas Covenant, a better example of the reluctant anti-hero you will not find.

 

As camaign setting you could not emulate better. Full of color and interesting places and people.

 

A worthy project. I should go back and read the books.

[badger3k]

I like the Land, even the warped form during the second series has possibilities as well.

 

In the first series, Covenant is still a very-unlikable character (to put it mildly). Part of his actions had to do that he really did not think he was in a real world, and acted like some people do in an RPG. Add in the fact that he could feel for the first time in a long time, and horny as hell, decides to rape Lena. All his "excuses" still aren't an excuse to me, either. That is what the author used as his basis for his actions, IMO. It also set up the confrontation/effects with his daughter, and subsequent affairs - a pretty good use of the consequences of actions. They even extended into the next series, IIRC.

 

However, despite the unlikeablity of Covenant, the rest of the world was well detailed and IMO written. The raver and ill-earth stone during the attack on the Lords citadel remain in my mind as well-written. I found the ur-viles more interesting than orcs. Pitch black, no eyes, no voice - imagine that creeping up on you sometime, especially if you were not armed. When you are armed, they had loremasters and their staves, who gained power when the others fell into a wedge behind them. They were also created by another race (the viles) - admittedly, this is similar in the origin of Tolkiens orcs, although they were not corrupt elves. The second series has an ur-vile travel with Covenenant and friend (a female Dr, IIRC), and had a purpose of his/its own (and its creators).

 

After more thinking, I believe the boodguard had the horses (I still think its Ranhyn, but may be wrong still). Their tenders never rode, though, so they may have running bonuses. I'd go with the rest for the bloodguard, though.

[JLXC]

Great idea! I need to reread the series first!

 

Next, I still cannot believe people are so overwhelmed with Thomas raping the woman. He believed he was dreaming, and since he had never been transported to another world by magic before (have you?) I, even as a youth, understood the action. The fact that he beat himself up forever about it shows his true underlying character. Hell she even forgives him! But readers, for years now, have put forth on the internet how much they hate the books and the character for rape. It's amusing that murder is far more acceptable in an RPG and a readers mind, than rape. I dunno... in any case I just had to say something because I have seen one too many posts highlighting the RAPE as opposed to the context or the entire series.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by JLXC

Next, I still cannot believe people are so overwhelmed with Thomas raping the woman. He believed he was dreaming, and since he had never been transported to another world by magic before (have you?) I, even as a youth, understood the action. The fact that he beat himself up forever about it shows his true underlying character.

 

Sure, but 3000 pages of Covenant wallowing in self-pity and/or refusing to accept the consequences of his actions is no fun to read. I like for the character development to happen a little faster, you know? On top of that he had few other redeeming characteristics.

[tkdguy]

I don't exactly remember Covenant beating himself up over it too much. Lena forgave him, but didn't she go nuts afterwards too? For my part, my reaction was, "Holy cow, that's something I've never seen a story's protagonist do before!" I pretty much glossed oer it. But even if I were transported to a magical world, and I think I'm dreaming, I probably wouldn't do somethng like that. Because I don't do that stuff in my dreams now, and they're pretty much out there.

[Old Man]

I often kill many people with guns in my dreams. And there was the one where I pursued someone I didn't like all over the city, on all fours, and then at the end I caught him and rent him apart with my claws in a spray of blood. But it's not like I'm ever really thinking straight in a dream, the way I presumably would if I wound up in The Land. I certainly have never raped anyone in dreams or in reality.

[Southern Cross]

Neither have I.

[badger3k]

Later on, especially with Elena (book 2 I believe), and after Tirock comes after him Covenant did some berating, IIRC.

 

Having just finished that part, here's some of what I read:

 

1) Covenant has had leprosy for something less than a year, I believe - the dates are a little hazy.

 

2) Covenant just visits the electric company, where basically is a continuation of the townspeople forcibly segregating him. On the way, he sees good-looking women and his impotence comes up, and as with most everything else, he hates them for being that way.

 

3) He arrives in a place which he would like to believe in, but he doesn't, and constantly reminds himself that it is a dream, that he has to follow it along to its conclusion.

 

4) Possibly he was affected by the hurtloam, since he had to regain the use of his nervous system at that point. The book makes mention of his desire for Lena, both physically and otherwise. At this juncture, they go off, where she talks about her husband to be (who she doesn't want to marry). She asks Covenant about his wife, and given all that was done with the divorce (fairly recently), he's bitter and very angry. Add in that it seems he was not thinking clearly (given the situation with his leprosy, that's an understatement) - "The hollowness of his dream became suddenly obvious to his inner view, like an unveiled wilderland, a new permutation of the desolation of leprosy. This was not real - it was a torment that he inflicted upon himself in subconscious, involuntary revolt against disease and loss. ... Lena's tale struck him like a mockery of his pains and failures." He says the Land is a nightmare, Lena, outraged, says it's real, he goes berserk saying "Are you trying to drive me crazy?"

 

First he strikes her, then ends up raping her. Afterwards, he realizes what he's done, gets sick, and eventually falls asleep nearby. It's effects do follow him through the books, though - from Tirock (who wants to marry her) stalking him, Lena going crazy, Elena being obsessed - IIRC, there was more, but it dealt with people's reactions to him, or his to them, and perhaps somethings with Lord Foul and his followers. I think it extends somewhat into the 2nd series as well, but possibly no more than an explanation to his companion.

 

Is that a reason to like the character or forgive him? No. But so what. Does that incident totally ruin the books? Obviously yes for some. For me, no.

 

The only reason Conan never raped a woman is REH had them all fall for him (I remember some stories where it started out with her saying no, but that naturally changes to yes - although I can't remember if it was REH or one of the later ones - the stories were from the 70s at the latest IIRC). Conan's a Hero, and that goes with the modern sensibilities and conventions. In real life, he'd have done that and worse, more than likely. In the Kane stories the (anti-) hero is amoral - the stories relate (in the background), rape, torture, murder and other evil acts. Does that make the stories a bad read? Or the authors work meaningless?

 

Look at others in the fantasy genre. Many of the earlier stories objectified women and left such things to the readers imagination. Is it that he is a "modern man" and shouldn't do such barbaric things, while Conan was a barbarian who could kill, plunder, and loot, but who somehow had modern day sensibilities when it came to women? We care less if it's done behind the scenes, or done by a barbarian of some forgotten land?

 

Is torture ok? In Robert Adams horseclans books, the heroes torture several people - is that ok, or is that "over the line"? Where is the limit?

 

I do know that the anti-hero seemed popular at the time those books were written, and Covenant sure is that - he doesn't fit any conception of a hero to probably anyone.

 

While I don't really like Covenant as a person, that doesn't take away from the enjoyment of the story, especially for the setting, for me.

 

To try to steer it back to topic, I take it then that no one has done any work in this area?

[Old Man]

Originally posted by badger3k

LWhile I don't really like Covenant as a person, that doesn't take away from the enjoyment of the story, especially for the setting, for me.

 

We can agree to differ here. I derive no enjoyment from riding around in the head of a loser like Covenant. The main thing for me is that I felt zero sympathy for the protagonist. You're not supposed to want the protagonist to die.

[The Owl]

Next, I still cannot believe people are so overwhelmed with Thomas raping the woman. [...snip...] Hell, she even forgives him!

 

Well, that said more nice things about Lena than it did about Covenant. It doesn't reduce his crime in my eyes; it just makes her a better person than I could be.

 

I don't think it's because I'm a woman that it bothers me. My mom pretty much said what you did. I think it's that he's so self-absorbed that I never could enjoy him as an antihero. He's mopey. And he wasn't a leper long enough for it to be entirely his disease making him so unlikeable - some of that must really be him.