building villains

[hypnotica]

hi im playing in a game where there's 6 to 8 players and were having problems with our gm throwing huge villains at us all the time. This is his first time GM'ing and were playing 150 point characters where he s throwing 350 point villains 2 to 9 at usat a time. What guide lines can you guys suggest in building villains and or in throwing villains at us? He doesn't want it to be too boring for us where we beat the villains in no time but frankly with his tough villains it takes forever to get anywhere in the game. He also have to make his villains do things to speed up the game that I dont think they normally would. What im hoping is to get good suggestions in building villains and also how powerful to build them? is there a good guideline to go by like for a 150 point player throw a 250 point villain or every 200 point player then throw a ??? point villain(S) at us?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: building villains

 

Point for point, the heroes usually win. This is because the GM has to run all the villians and each hero can make his/her own decisions to maximize his/her potential. It's really hard to run three or more villains and run them all efficiently.

 

The villians do not always play fair, however, they are usually resistant to the heroes main attacks (magic and sword) or are just harder to hit. Finding their weakness is key to defeating them. They can also befuddle heroes using powers that the heroes are vunerable to (illusions/mind control/images/shape change/seduction are usually good choices). Don't forget that bystanders can be affected much more than the heroes. "Hey, the heroes are beating up those priests! And I thought they were good!" There they have to be aware of what's happening and question what people perceive.

 

There's no hard fast rule...

A really good 250pt villain (or two) can defeat four 150pt players. Using lots of deceit and guile, this is hard for a GM to run, but it is worth it. These players know when they simply been beaten and when they've been outclassed. Then again, the tide can turn rather suddenly and the villains/monsters could be captured or killed.

 

On the other hand, sometimes you really need to have 500pt villian that can wipe the floor with the four 200pt players. They should have lots of warning that a direct assult is simply not going to work. High Speed is neccessary for this and big attacks that the heroes should be ready to dodge (make sure to impress them by vaporizing something). They will have to use cleverness to trap the villian or monster (by his weaknesses) and those can be fun too. Unless the players aren't planners and then they could be wiped out.

[Markdoc]

Re: building villains

 

I'd talk to your GM. I've played in games where the NPC villains were always tougher/faster/smarter than the players, and the GM really wasn't trying to be a scumbag. It's just that he wanted the players to have "a real challenge".

 

We had to explain that "a real challenge" was not the same as being used as punch bags all the time. I'm afraid that GM never did get it and after three failed attempts at a campaign, we simply gave up.

 

There is no hard and fast rule on "how many points is right" - but in general if the villians have more points than the players, then they should also either have some significant weaknesses, or be outnumbered.

 

Good luck!

 

Cheers, Mark

[SuperPheemy]

Re: building villains

 

My Villains come in three varieties, each with its own uses and relative power scales.

 

First is the "Head Goon", he's usually just a standard bandit, goblin, orc, etc... with a couple of benefits that allow him to keep his rabble in line (Better armor, extra STR or BODY, a minor magic or high-quality weapon). These guys are a dime-a-dozen, and often provide little more than a reason for a large mob of attacking mooks to break and run when he goes down. At best they should run 50 points or so.

 

Second is the "Recurring Adversary". These guys should be on par with the PCs point wise, and may or may not be obvious as a bad-guy. The Bounty Hunter after the Rogue in the party, or the rival Wizard. Sometimes you can take this theme and expand it into an "Adversarial Group". These guys seldom fight to the death, treat them like the three-dimensional characters they are. When villains of this caliber go down it should be a memorable point in the game, a landmark that the PCs can look back on as a turning point in their carreers.

 

Finally there is the Master Villain. These guys have as many points as is necessary for them to accomplish their goals. In direct conflict, the Master Villain should be able to challenge the entire PC group. Thwarting or defeating the MV should be the climax of long in-game plotlines.

[Galadorn]

Re: building villains

 

hi im playing in a game where there's 6 to 8 players and were having problems with our gm throwing huge villains at us all the time. This is his first time GM'ing and were playing 150 point characters where he s throwing 350 point villains 2 to 9 at usat a time. What guide lines can you guys suggest in building villains and or in throwing villains at us? He doesn't want it to be too boring for us where we beat the villains in no time but frankly with his tough villains it takes forever to get anywhere in the game. He also have to make his villains do things to speed up the game that I dont think they normally would. What im hoping is to get good suggestions in building villains and also how powerful to build them? is there a good guideline to go by like for a 150 point player throw a 250 point villain or every 200 point player then throw a ??? point villain(S) at us?

 

It's up to your GM. In Normals Unbound, there was a villian who could be defeated through a susceptability to love. That's right, if two parents showed up who loved their child, the villian would start taking stun. So I guess in this circumstance, you can see why there is not hard and fast rule.

 

I think a better guide is active points in villian powers. If a villian has 50 active points in attacks, but has 250 character points, he might have all his points spread out into different special effects. If the PCs come along with 100 point characters, and 75 active points in attacks, they will probably wipe the floor with the villian, depending on susceptabilities, vulnerabilities and other factors.

 

Fantasy Hero is a Universal Roleplaying System, this means the key word for Hero is "flexibility." The problem with flexibility is that a system can be too flexible, so much so that GMs and players alike find the system hard to standardize.

 

I think this is what the present D&D does better than Hero with the new monster challenge ratings system. I know if I put a CR 2 (Challenge Rating 2) monster against a group of four 1st characters, for the most part they will be challenged. If I put a CR4 monster against these same characters, they will be defeated - most likely.

 

That's one weakeness I think FH has compared to D&D, lack of standardization. While standardization can feel canned after a while, GMs can always adjust the standardized monsters to suit their needs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: building villains

 

Its a judgement call by the GM, but it sounds like your GM isnt seasoned enough to make accurate calls.

 

The total number of points involved isnt really the determinant if a given villain will threaten a party -- how many of their points are given over to combat effectiveness is much more significant, and if they have any special abilities that target or affect any of the PCs weaknesses is also a major consideration.

 

Recommend this to your GM: try engaging the group with fewer villains and if he feels like the PCs arent being "challenged" enough he can have more arrive in ones and twos until he feels the balance is right. Its easier to add than to take away.

[Old Man]

Re: building villains

 

I put my players up against a group of villains just as tough as they were. Their stats were almost identical. It was quite possibly the toughest, bloodiest, bar fight in the campaign. It gave me a pretty good idea of where the lethal line was.

[Old Man]

Re: building villains

 

Oh yeah, I think your GM as inexperienced as he is should have started the game at a lower point level. It is easier to adjust power and develop villains for players in the 25+25 or 50+50 level.

[Manic Typist]

Re: building villains

 

A suggestion I learned from my GM.

 

For the primary liutenants of the "Big Boss:" same starting points as the charcater, and +25 points for every player in the game.

 

Thus, a 150 campaign with 4 players would face Lt. Volkorov of the Dark Sun Army, and he would be at 150+25+25+25+25= 200 points.

 

For the "Big Boss:" add +50 points per player. So, General Vlad would be at 150+50+50+50+50= 350 points.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: building villains

 

I've always found the guidelines from the old Robot Warriors game to be really good.

 

Mooks should be 1-3 points of CV less than the heroes, 1-5 DEX points lower (minimum 11), and 1 pt of SPD lower. They shouldn't have heavy armor, or extra BODY, CON, or STUN.

 

Groups that are intended to be equals to the PCs should be built so that these stats are more or less equal (some variance necessary for character concept and just general fun).

 

The one bad guy who is supposed to be able to take on all the heroes by himself should be built opposite of the mooks: a couple points of CV higher, a couple points of DEX higher, a point of SPD higher, and with heavier armor, extra BODY, CON, and STUN.

 

Armor should be about 2-3 times the number of dice used against it...ie Resistant Defenses should be about 2-3 times the number of dice in the Killing Attacks used most easily by the PCs, and total defenses (Resistant and Non-Resistant) should be about 2-3 times the number of dice in the PCs Normal attacks. Defenses of 4x the attack dice will block the entire attack more often than not. Defenses of 6x the attack dice are impenetrable.