devlin1 Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Is it legal to buy a Characteristic Usable As Attack? It seems too good to be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? I think you mean "usable by others." While it isn't technically illegal, I'm against it. As an attack, a little extra Ego never hurt anyone, I don't think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted March 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? I think you mean "usable by others." While it isn't technically illegal' date=' I'm against it. As an attack, a little extra Ego never hurt anyone, I don't think.[/quote']Actually, no, I mean UAA-- forcing the EGO increase on a target whether they want it or not. With UBO, the target can reject it; with UAA, if I target someone with it, they get the +10 regardless, and I control it, not them. By that I don't mean that I can control what's done with it or anything-- I just mean that instead of them having a say in the matter, I'm in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Help me to understand - in charge of what? What do you do next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted March 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Well, it's all theoretical, but.... UBO states that the target is in control of the power, pays all END Costs, etc., and can refuse the power. If bought with Persistent, it can affect an unaware character, but otherwise, it seems like the character has to be aware of it and agreeable. Conversely, from the description of UAA it sounds like it can affect an unaware character by default. Regardless, while +5 STR, UAA and 1d6 STR Aid cost the same, the former is much more effective. Shouldn't that be... I dunno... wrong or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Characteristics bought UBO can be used to affect characters that are unconscious, if that's what you're getting at. I don't have my book in front of me, but I think they can affect characters that are conscious but unaware as well. Regardless, while +5 STR, UAA and 1d6 STR Aid cost the same, the former is much more effective. Shouldn't that be... I dunno... wrong or something? With Aid, you can buy up the max. Aid is also cumulative up to its max, so for 15 points you could buy the 1d6 Aid max up to 16 and, with a few applications, crank it all the way up. +5 STR is just +5 STR. OTOH, there are many special effects that IMO would be better served by Characteristics UBO or UAA rather than Aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earen Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Regardless' date=' while +5 STR, UAA and 1d6 STR Aid cost the same, the former is much more effective. Shouldn't that be... I dunno... wrong or something?[/quote'] In a word, yes. In FREd pg 348 Meta-Rules of the Hero System it states, "One power should not be used to do what another already does. For example, Images already creates light and images made out of light, so you shouldn't use Change Environment to create a similar effect." Basically, there's lots of ways that you can combine advantages, limitations and powers to get cheaper or more flexible versions of some other power ... but generally ... don't do it. It goes on to say, "If two Powers (or other game elements) are equally valid ways to create a particular ability, you must use the more expensive of the two." By that I don't mean that I can control what's done with it or anything-- I just mean that instead of them having a say in the matter' date=' I'm in charge.[/quote'] And actually, if you read the description of UAA a little closer, it does mean that you get to control what's done with it. FREd specifically states the case of using Flight UAA on someone and then using it to fly them into a wall. This basically invalidates, to me, the use of Characteristics UAA in the place of Aid. I would rule that not only does the player have to pay the END for the granting of the Characteristic, but pay the END for the use of it as well as concentrate on how that's used ... consuming the appropriate Full Action, Attack Action, Half-Phase Action or Zero-Phase Action accordingly. Aid you would fire-and-forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Regardless' date=' while +5 STR, UAA and 1d6 STR Aid cost the same, the former is much more effective. Shouldn't that be... I dunno... wrong or something?[/quote'] Well, depending on the circumstances, it might be less effective. First, 1d6 STR Aid tops out a +6 STR - don't scorn that extra point, it can often put a Characteristic over a key break point. Second, +5 STR UAA can only affect one character at a time, while Aid can be used successively on several characters. Third, neither construct functions at range, so if the recipient of the +5 STR loses physical contact with the person controlling the Power he loses its benefit; OTOH once someone is Aided he can wander off to his heart's content. Fourth, if the person controlling the STR Power is Stunned or rendered unconscious, the power shuts off for the recipient; again, the person Aided loses nothing in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted March 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Good points, all. I didn't think it should be better/legal, but I couldn't think of a concrete reason why. It's reassuring to know my instincts are right, at any rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Out of curiosity, what would this be used for? You might find a more reasonable alternative by examining your SFX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted March 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? Out of curiosity' date=' what would this be used for? You might find a more reasonable alternative by examining your SFX.[/quote']I don't intend to use it for anything, actually; I just noticed the possibility, and it seemed a little broken at first, so I sought the opinions of you good people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? I don't intend to use it for anything' date=' actually; I just noticed the possibility, and it seemed a little broken at first, so I sought the opinions of you good people.[/quote'] Well, Aid has a Succor option, which seems to accomplish this. You pay the END, and can regulate the level (more or less, or use the Standard Effect Rule). I can understand having Characterists UBO (although it would have to have a good reason not to be Aid or Succor), but the more I think about it, I don't see much use in UAA Chars. In such a case, if I were to allow it at all, I might just handwave the control issue, since having higher Characteristics would rarely be oppposed. My main concern is what "full control of the power" means. If you buy STR UAA, can you make someone punch or leap as you please? If you buy INT UAA, can you force someone to come to notice something? If you buy PRE UAA, can you make them PRE Attack anyone you choose? These seem to boarder (if not entirely duplicate) Mind Control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earen Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Alternative to Aid? My main concern is what "full control of the power" means. If you buy STR UAA' date=' can you make someone punch or leap as you please? If you buy INT UAA, can you [i']force[/i] someone to come to notice something? If you buy PRE UAA, can you make them PRE Attack anyone you choose? These seem to boarder (if not entirely duplicate) Mind Control. Yeah ... unless someone comes up with a decent use, I think adding an entry into my House Rules document ruling out the use of Characteristics UAA would be prudent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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