DEX vs. CSLs

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Or take them down a grade if you don't have NCM. Thus, a 5 pt group in NCM becomes a 3 pt level in Supers. Thus, martial arts or HTH levels are 3 points in Supers, and 5 points in Fantasy.

 

This would work well for skill levels. Mechanically, it's hard to justify +1 in all PRE or INT skills costing 5 points when +5 PRE or INT gives the same benefit and costs the same amount. In a NCM campaign, 5 points for +1 or 10 points for +5 stat works much better.

 

It does get a little clunky. For example, if you make +1 with Int or Pre or Dex for 3 pts, then you'd have to change the cost of buying up an individual skill. 2 pts for +1 would be too expensive. And 1 pt per +1 might be too cheap for certain very useful skills such as Breakfall.

[Vondy]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

 

In a NCM campaign, CSL's will clearly become cost effective after Dex is bought up to 20. No argument here. Of course you'll have lots of Dex 20 characters in such a world.

 

I don't dispute the mathematical supremacy of dex of csls, but this post pretty much sums up the difference between a roll playing game and a role playing game. Efficiency and concept don't always go hand in hand. When you get a stack of characters in an NCM game that all have 20 dex you know you have more combat than character on your hands. With my group I tend to see Dex scores over 15, but only a few 20's because no one wants to be "that guy..."

[Dust Raven]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

But if you do that, you'd have OCV/DCV of 3. Which means that you have a very good chance of not hitting, and even if you do hit, you'll get clobbered by the brick's return attack.

 

And that doesn't change the fact that in general, Dex is far superior to CSLs.

 

Stepping out of combat (not everything of value, has value only in combat), that DEX won't let you bash in a solid door any faster, where the levels will.

 

Stepping back into combat, Damage for CV is a trade off. Not always a wise one, but that option still costs points. Either option alone isn't worth it's points in either DEX or Damage, but then again, a Multipower costs more than any single Power in it too.

 

Like I said, if all you care about is CV, then DEX is clearly the winner. If you want a naturally talented combatant (among other things), all you need is DEX. If you want a skilled combatant, it's gonna take levels, and a skilled combatant won't ignore all that those levels can do.

[Dust Raven]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

I don't dispute the mathematical supremacy of dex of csls' date=' but this post pretty much sums up the difference between a roll playing game and a role playing game. Efficiency and concept don't always go hand in hand. When you get a stack of characters in an NCM game that all have 20 dex you know you have more combat than character on your hands. With my group I tend to see Dex scores over 15, but only a few 20's because no one wants to be [i']"that guy..."[/i]

In the games I've run, and played in, "that guy" tends to be the one who plays a lot of video games.

 

In any case, if concept allows for a really high DEX, that's fine, I'll allow it and smile. Such character's tend to get knocked out a lot, or find they can't hit what the lower DEX character's can. And it's all because they start fighting opponents with CSLs (or AE attacks and Desol, but CSLs have their part to play). It isn't always like this, but opponents tend to notice that if the "fast guy" has effective attacks on top of his high accuracy and ability to dodge, they'll concentrate on him more often (a simple grenade to cause stunning, KB or force a Dive for Cover, and then two or three other blast away at the 1/2 DCV character). Or a rival martial artist/gunfighter type shows up and they have a major face-off, only the other guy has Levels allowing for trick shots that take the fast guy off guard, and/or Levels with Missile Deflection/Reflection to really throw him for a loop. Or maybe he'll just throw all the levels into damage, Hurry his action and get a lucky shot. Maybe just dump his levels into DCV and wait for the other guy to run out of END or ammo. He could also....well, the guy with Levels has options.

 

Levels are just as good as DEX, but only if you take into consideration things other than CV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

To quote from several character reviews "You misunderstand my question. I'm not asking why your character would WANT these abilities. I'm asking why he would HAVE them!" Gosh' date=' I'd like a 150 point cosmic VPP too, but I suspect if I get hit by lightning this morning that's not likely to be the result...[/quote']

 

I want them becuase:

1) they make the character interesting.

2) they give the character a wide range of options for a small cost.

3) they make the character interesting.

4) CSLs represent training better than raw Dex in many cases.

5) they make the character interesting.

 

Von D-Man said it nicely .. it's the difference between Roll-Playing and Role-Playing.

 

You're character has +9 CSLs with Rifles because he just spent the last nine years training with them ... that's why he HAS them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

My quote:

 

To quote from several character reviews "You misunderstand my question. I'm not asking why your character would WANT these abilities. I'm asking why he would HAVE them!" Gosh, I'd like a 150 point cosmic VPP too, but I suspect if I get hit by lightning this morning that's not likely to be the result...

 

Your quote:

 

I want them becuase:

1) they make the character interesting.

2) they give the character a wide range of options for a small cost.

3) they make the character interesting.

4) CSLs represent training better than raw Dex in many cases.

5) they make the character interesting.

 

Von D-Man said it nicely .. it's the difference between Roll-Playing and Role-Playing.

 

You're character has +9 CSLs with Rifles because he just spent the last nine years training with them ... that's why he HAS them.

 

( answers the "why do you want this" question.

 

(d) answers the "why does the character have this" question. This character has trained extensively and consequently has levels. He does not have raw DEX because he is not superhumanly fast.

 

Now, if instead I told you my charcater was struck by lightning two days ago, discovered his amazing new superpowers yesterday, stayed up all night sewing his SuperSuit and is ready to make his first appearance "today", at the first game session, I would expect you to challenge how this character has managed to accumulate 9 levels with his Multipower.

 

I'm more referring to the player who comes to you with his new character, TigerMan, who has a vast array of tiger powers, and a conic-area effect RKA with one charge, side effects and Concentrate - 0 DCV.

 

"Why does Tiger Man Where does the conic area 1 charge come from?"

 

"Well, I want to have a last-ditch power against an oppoent my tiger powers are ineffective against".

 

See quote above.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

In the games I've run, and played in, "that guy" tends to be the one who plays a lot of video games.

 

In any case, if concept allows for a really high DEX, that's fine, I'll allow it and smile. Such character's tend to get knocked out a lot, or find they can't hit what the lower DEX character's can. And it's all because they start fighting opponents with CSLs (or AE attacks and Desol, but CSLs have their part to play).

 

The opponents with CSLs are probably spending equal or greater points to actually be more effective in combat than the high dex guy. And unless the opponent buys 8 or 10 pt CSLs, or 5 pt DCV only CSLs (ie spending more points than Dex Dude), that opponent is going to be vulnerable to either range or hth attacks. He has a real hole in his defenses that will be exploited by a smart player.

 

It isn't always like this, but opponents tend to notice that if the "fast guy" has effective attacks on top of his high accuracy and ability to dodge, they'll concentrate on him more often (a simple grenade to cause stunning, KB or force a Dive for Cover, and then two or three other blast away at the 1/2 DCV character).

 

IOW, the opponents are acknowledging that "fast guy" is the most effective person in the party even though all members of the party are presumably built on the same number of points. And the tactic you mention will affect anyone, not just DD. Of course the players with low dex and levels are still going to be worse off compared to DD because their Dive for Cover and Breakfall rolls are worse than DD's.

 

Or a rival martial artist/gunfighter type shows up and they have a major face-off, only the other guy has Levels allowing for trick shots that take the fast guy off guard, and/or Levels with Missile Deflection/Reflection to really throw him for a loop. Or maybe he'll just throw all the levels into damage, Hurry his action and get a lucky shot. Maybe just dump his levels into DCV and wait for the other guy to run out of END or ammo. He could also....well, the guy with Levels has options.

 

While the guy with levels is playing defense, someone else in the party is going to zap him with the type of attack that his levels don't apply to. Either range or hth.

 

Levels are just as good as DEX, but only if you take into consideration things other than CV.

 

Not for the same cost.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Stepping out of combat (not everything of value' date=' has value only in combat), that DEX won't let you bash in a solid door any faster, where the levels will.[/quote']

 

True, but very insignificant. Out of combat generally means that you have as much time as necessary to bash down the door anyway, which means you can haymaker or push as needed.

 

Stepping back into combat, Damage for CV is a trade off. Not always a wise one, but that option still costs points. Either option alone isn't worth it's points in either DEX or Damage, but then again, a Multipower costs more than any single Power in it too.

 

Like I said, if all you care about is CV, then DEX is clearly the winner. If you want a naturally talented combatant (among other things), all you need is DEX. If you want a skilled combatant, it's gonna take levels, and a skilled combatant won't ignore all that those levels can do.

 

The 5 or 8 pt levels simply aren't cost effective. And the 3 pt levels are heavily limited in what they can achieve. They'll leave a gaping hole in your defenses if you rely on them. A character that depends on the 3 pt cheapies is going to get crushed by an opponent who uses both hth and range attacks (perhaps someone with both nunchakus and shuriken)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

While the guy with levels is playing defense' date=' someone else in the party is going to zap him with the type of attack that his levels don't apply to. Either range or hth.[/quote']

 

This is a battle of honor. Win or lose, DragonFist must fight alone.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

True' date=' but very insignificant. Out of combat generally means that you have as much time as necessary to bash down the door anyway, which means you can haymaker or push as needed.[/quote']

 

Not if you need to get in quickly. If you have a kidnapper behind that door, finally breaking it after four hits won't cut it - he's already shot the hostages. Pushing may help, but ifyou push enough to break the door down in one shot (and remember you don't know its DEF and BOD when you decide how much to push), will you have enough END left to deal with whatever waits behind the door?

 

Plus, the only thing better than a surprise attack is one against a guy halfway through a Haymaker!

[Victim]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

My quote:

 

(d) answers the "why does the character have this" question. This character has trained extensively and consequently has levels. He does not have raw DEX because he is not superhumanly fast.

 

So the only possible special possible special effect for high dex is super human speed or reaction time? If I wanted to make super-skilled combatant, I could buy him tons of levels, lightning reflexes, skill levels with skills like breakfall and Dive for Cover levels. Of I could switch most of those points to Dex and then buy a few extra levels for flexibility, probably creating a simpler and more cost effective character.

 

Now, if instead I told you my charcater was struck by lightning two days ago, discovered his amazing new superpowers yesterday, stayed up all night sewing his SuperSuit and is ready to make his first appearance "today", at the first game session, I would expect you to challenge how this character has managed to accumulate 9 levels with his Multipower.

 

 

Because his powers are intrisically easy to use and control, or hard to dodge, or they're simulating some type of mental aim. Someone with Laser Eyes would be able to shoot a fast, accurate, easy to aim beam while providing few clues to their target. The TK might buy many levels because he aims with his much higher mental stats, but the target uses normal DCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

So the only possible special possible special effect for high dex is super human speed or reaction time? If I wanted to make super-skilled combatant' date=' I could buy him tons of levels, lightning reflexes, skill levels with skills like breakfall and Dive for Cover levels. Of I could switch most of those points to Dex and then buy a few extra levels for flexibility, probably creating a simpler and more cost effective character.[/quote']

 

Again, this comes back to conception. If the character is described as "an ordinary human being" and he has a 33 DEX, I'm challenging it. His reaction time is 32 times as good as a normal human's, and about 6 times as good as a "peak normal" human. That's not normal. If your conception is not a normal human (maybe he's augmented by the Super Soldier Serum), then we're back in line.

 

Superhuman DEX IS superhuman reaction time, by the way. It's not an explanation. It's a manifestation.

 

Because his powers are intrisically easy to use and control' date=' or hard to dodge, or they're simulating some type of mental aim. Someone with Laser Eyes would be able to shoot a fast, accurate, easy to aim beam while providing few clues to their target. The TK might buy many levels because he aims with his much higher mental stats, but the target uses normal DCV.[/quote']

 

And all of these are valid explanations for the abilities. Whe I say an explanation is needed, I mean just that - I'm prepared to accept pretty much any rational (in comic book terms) definition.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

This is a battle of honor. Win or lose' date=' DragonFist must fight alone.[/quote']

 

Dragon Fist has both a Katana and Shuriken. Level Lad can only defend against one of them.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

My vote is the difference comes down to game and genre.

 

IMO Captain America is scary because he is a DEX Monkey with LOTS of skill levels. Same with the Batman.

 

There is nothing wrong with a high dex if the game supports it. Back at New world Brick Dex was 20-23, Average Dex was 23-26, and Speedster Dex was 30+.

 

Skill levels represented 'veteran' Supers that were more than good enough to level you.

 

IMO Cyclops is a moderate maybe 18 DEX hero with lots of 3 pt, 5pt, 8 pt and Penalty Skill Levels.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dust Raven]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Not for the same cost.

I'd like to play with you sometime. It might not be perfectly balanced, but it's not as clear cut as you think it is. You can do more with Levels, accomplish more. Because of that, Levels cost more. It's not all about the CV and I'm sure you know this. DEX isn't better than CSLs. Cheaper? Yes. An EB is cheaper than a Multipower with a variety of Powers too, but it doesn't make EB better than a Multipower.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

I'd like to play with you sometime. It might not be perfectly balanced' date=' but it's not as clear cut as you think it is. You can do [i']more[/i] with Levels, accomplish more. Because of that, Levels cost more. It's not all about the CV and I'm sure you know this. DEX isn't better than CSLs. Cheaper? Yes. An EB is cheaper than a Multipower with a variety of Powers too, but it doesn't make EB better than a Multipower.

 

It's very clear cut. The person who spends X number of points in CSLs isn't going to be as effective as the person who spends X number of points in Dex, except possibly in single combat vs one single opponent that uses the same type of attacks.

 

The person who buys X number of points in Dex is going to have equal CVs (at least and more if LL buys 5+ pt levels), greater initiative (which you seem to be ignoring), better Dive for Cover rolls, better Agility skill rolls, and his CVs aren't severely limited like LL's are.

 

DD can fight any opponents. LL can only fight opponents who use the same basic attack type (range or hth).

 

All of the above far outweighs the value of optionally trading 2 CVs in for +1 DC.

[tesuji]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

if a GM wants to have LL be cpmpetitive with LL, he needs to script encounters to make it so.

 

For instance, scenarios where bouncing EBs is a good option, like say when the villains grab hostages to use as shield but the area walls are the right materials to allow a hero to bounce an Eb to hit the viollain from behind.

 

For instance, a robot with so high a defense so the PCs need to bash it with more damage, making the only way to effectively damage them being pushing or Cvs to extra damage plus even perhaps haymakers. if the robots are not particularly dextrous and thus easily hit, the loss in acdcuract might be a non-issue but the 2 extra dice for body past defenses could be critical.

 

Is water breathing really worth more than +2 to-hit with your main attack? Yes or no, depending on the GM's scripts.

 

Same with Dex vs Levels. As long as there are reasonable distinctions between two different pieces, its the challenges provided that will determine actual worth in play.

[i3ullseye]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Myself... I tend to avoid buying many levels at character creation... but I pick them up with experience later. To me they represent character growth. I use them more in mundance campaigns (with NCM of course) like fantasy, but for supers I focus more on raw abilites with new heroes.

 

But this quote here.....

 

I just dislike the explanation of "I'm just trying to maximize my points." Sets me off, don't maximize your points - maximize your concept.

 

Actually I try to Maximize my points WITHIN my concept. I do it for all the villains when I run the game also, so the PCs had better be on their toes when they make their heroes also. I have yet to see a concept that says the guy MUST have a 17 Dex... but I have seen many that would make him near peak human, and hence 18 is the best target number to shoot for.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

As an aside, how many games do you see the "levels in DCV are either vs range or HTH unless they only grant DCV" rule applied? In my expoerience, this is frequently ignored in Supers campaigns. Probably rightly so, as the highly skilled combatants in the comics don't generally get hit easier by one type of attack over another.

 

That night be an easy quick fix for combat levels. In non-NCM games, levels in DCV always apply to range and HTH simultaneously. "Pure" DCV levels could also apply to ECV, I suppose, or be downgraded to 3 point levels (like buying DEX with "only for DCV; -2).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

It's very clear cut. The person who spends X number of points in CSLs isn't going to be as effective as the person who spends X number of points in Dex' date=' except possibly in single combat vs one single opponent that uses the same type of attacks.[/quote']

 

Gary, why is it that, on many other threads, you argue that some item is too effective, and we should raise the cost, yet here you do not argue we should make skill levels cheaper? Just curious.

[ghost-angel]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

As an aside, how many games do you see the "levels in DCV are either vs range or HTH unless they only grant DCV" rule applied? In my expoerience, this is frequently ignored in Supers campaigns. Probably rightly so, as the highly skilled combatants in the comics don't generally get hit easier by one type of attack over another.

 

That night be an easy quick fix for combat levels. In non-NCM games, levels in DCV always apply to range and HTH simultaneously. "Pure" DCV levels could also apply to ECV, I suppose, or be downgraded to 3 point levels (like buying DEX with "only for DCV; -2).

 

We use that rule in all our campaigns .. super or otherwise. It make sense.

 

In my last post I really meant to say "I have them because..." - shouldn't post when I'm trying to do four things at once.

 

As for this thread ... we're getting redundant. almost everyone agrees that point-for-point raw DEX does more for less, but CSLs have their uses within the game both mechanically and dramatically.

 

as for maximizing points .. withing a concept is fine as long as the concept stands (and it's usually obvious when you're stepping outside of concept), but just stating that you're trying to Maximize the Points Within the System screams power-gamer and he should be reduced by 50 character points and capped at 15 for all stats because I'm a jerk and pointgamers piss me off. I don't mind getting a concept and then point tweaking to make it fit - I do mind those that go out intentionally trying to "beat the system." go play D20 - it seems built for that.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Gary' date=' why is it that, on many other threads, you argue that some item is too effective, and we should raise the cost, yet here you do not argue we should make skill levels cheaper? Just curious.[/quote']

 

I'm not arguing against that. I'm just wary of unintended consequences if that occurs.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

skill levels may not be a versatile in some ways ( in others more so) but they are perfect in creating a specific instance to let your character shine. One of my players made an Allan Quatermain type for example. Instead of extra DEX he bought CSLs in rifles plus penalty levels for range and also hit location. He's not as good in say HTH as the other version might be but for his long distance rifle bit he is unmatched.

 

There are others better close up but he's definitely your sniper or charging rhino man.

[Sean Waters]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

skill levels may not be a versatile in some ways ( in others more so) but they are perfect in creating a specific instance to let your character shine. One of my players made an Allan Quatermain type for example. Instead of extra DEX he bought CSLs in rifles plus penalty levels for range and also hit location. He's not as good in say HTH as the other version might be but for his long distance rifle bit he is unmatched.

 

There are others better close up but he's definitely your sniper or charging rhino man.

 

Steamteck, mate; 4 years and 5 months. Are you going for some sort of record?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Steamteck' date=' mate; 4 years and 5 months. Are you going for some sort of record?[/quote']

 

you know I just look at the little related threads thing at the bottom of other threads and don't really notice the dates of the related thread I go to:nonp:.

 

Do I get to be in the record book? Get a syndrome named after me?