Devlin1 KA Question

[Hawksmoor]

You Posted this:

 

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I feel like an idiot for asking this, but....

 

A character has 15 STR, and has an OAF 1d6 HKA. How much does Armor Piercing (+1/2) for that HKA cost? It seems to me that cost should be calculated based on 30 points: 15 from STR, and 15 from the HKA. However, I almost always see this power bought just as:

 

1d6 HKA, Armor Piercing (+1/2), OAF: Sword (-1). Active Point Cost: 22, Real Cost: 11

 

However, by my logic, it ought to be:

 

1d6 HKA, OAF: Sword (-1) plus Naked Modifier, Armor Piercing on 30 Active Points, OAF: Sword (-1). Active Point Cost: 30, Real Cost: 15

 

I feel like I'm greatly overcomplicating what has seemed for years to be a simple matter.

 

 

I feel the answer is this:

 

No the first build is correct. You can do the second one (and it is more powerful) but you do not have to.

 

The effect is that to add your PCs strength to the HKA you but compute your Active Points of STR as if they were AP. So you only add 10STR (15 AP = 10 STR +1/2 Advantage) to the attack giving you either a 1/2d6 or 1d6-1 as the GM allows.

 

The Second build will automatically give you a 2d6 AP HKA. But it is not the true and only build possible.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

And because I like to be right, here is steve's reply

 

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The cost is calculated based only on the HKA -- the STR used or added doesn't factor in, because it can vary. However, when applying STR to an Advantaged attack, you have to pro-rate it, as described on 5E 272.

__________________

Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer

 

 

Only Steve is more eloquent.

 

Hawksmoor

[Vorsch]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

That means your 3dc from str have 1/2 adv applied so only become 2dc, you need str 22 to get the full benifit, or that what i thought anyway, also not all advantages pro rate like this 0 end doesnt ( at least i dont think it does).

 

so Str 45 with 2d6Hka ap 0end is particulary effective ( give 4d6 Hka ap costs 4 end), you get a 105 Ap attack which doesnt even look suspect on the character sheet.

 

Im just going to go and build my demi brick swordsman now.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

Vorsh you are correct that only some builds get this prorated advantage. Penetrating, AP get it as does Effects Desolid. I have never seen a ruling on Explosion, but I would doubt it.

 

Hawksmoor

[devlin1]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

I have always known this, and I still know it now, but I had this weird moment of doubt and thought I'd ask Steve about it. I looked into the Abyss, and the Abyss looked into me.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

I know you even had me wondering if 5th Ed changed the rules on me. And I thought it could be of some use to the disscussion group. Since not everyone goes to the Steve only forum.

 

Naked advantage is a weird one. I wonder is it still illegal to by a HtHKA with Range?

 

Hawksmoor

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

 

Naked advantage is a weird one. I wonder is it still illegal to by a HtHKA with Range?

 

Hawksmoor

 

When was it illegal? I've seen that construct in plenty of 4th Ed. material.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

It was considered illegal because it is illegal to by STR (-Ranged +1/2). You need to go buy Telekinesis, or EB or anything but this construct. It is broken.

 

Hawksmoor

[devlin1]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

It was considered illegal because it is illegal to by STR (-Ranged +1/2). You need to go buy Telekinesis, or EB or anything but this construct. It is broken.

 

Hawksmoor

It's really not broken. The combination of KA-HTH, Ranged, and Range Limited By STR is the best way, IMO, to represent a thrown dagger, shuriken, sword, etc.

 

11 Sword: 22-Pt. Multipower, OAF: Sword (-1)

1u 1d6+1 HKA

1u 1d6 HKA, Ranged (+1/2), Range Limited By STR (-1/2)

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

I think a better build is:

 

1d6 RKA Range limited by STR, since you are not able to maintain that full power (your STR) over distance.

 

Although lots of other people disagree. Which is fine. HERO is good at such differences as long as the core assumptions remain the same. I don't recall where I heard first heard the No STR at Range NO NO but it was in response to a number of concerns about Champs 1 and 2 characters. There is even a build like this in STRIKE FORCE.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

Or there is the naked advantage Range on STR.

 

That is really broken. Like I said Buy TK!

 

Hawksmoor

[Vorsch]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

As you mention TK i believe it was originally costed at 1str/1pt but got changed to 2/3, makes it real expensive to build magneto or marvel girl.

 

Its after all str , range, no fig, to me its this kind of inconsistancy, two ways to buy any power but different cost, that lets Hero down.

 

And as to HKA Uar , well if you can pick it up you can throw it, one of the many sfx advantages of str combined with OAF.

[mr_azrad]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

TK is strength (ranged +1/2)(indirect+3/4)(no figured attributes -1/2)

 

Which makes buying TK the same price as strength, but strength would cost 3x times as much endurance to use.

[devlin1]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

I think a better build is:

 

1d6 RKA Range limited by STR, since you are not able to maintain that full power (your STR) over distance.

Yes, that's fine, but it doesn't reflect the fact that stronger people throw things harder. If built as an RKA, someone with a 10 STR does as much damage with it as someone with a 40 STR (although the 40 STR guy gets to throw it farther).

 

I don't see anything wrong with building a dagger as a 1/2d6 HKA, OAF and then buying Naked Advantage: Range, Based on STR (and maybe Reduced By Range) to represent the ability to throw it. Doesn't that make more sense than buying it as Armor-Piercing TK, Only To Cause Damage...?

[Gary]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

HKA weapons can be built as HKA with the Range advantage. Most of the weapons in the book are built that way. But I'm not sure you're allowed to put Range on HKA if it isn't a weapon.

[Vorsch]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

Is TK explicitly indirect, because i can immagine tractor beam effects which arnt, if so whats the lim for direct, -3/4?

 

I have been wondering this for several years, in 3rd it was just Sfx.

 

PS dont have 5th, yet.

[mr_azrad]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

Is TK explicitly indirect, because i can immagine tractor beam effects which arnt, if so whats the lim for direct, -3/4?

 

I have been wondering this for several years, in 3rd it was just Sfx.

 

PS dont have 5th, yet.

 

I'm not sure if TK's indirect nature is addressed anyway in the books, but I always assumed it was. Compare TK to energy blast (EB also being another version of ranged strength, but I'll save that for another thread). With an EB you can only push your target away from you (if you manage to do Knockdown or knock back). With TK you can push your target left, right, towards you, or away from you, or even lift them in the air. I know stretching is indirect and I always considered TK to be similiar I guess. Maybe someone should ask the big dog (Steve), or maybe it is already in the FAQ.

[mr_azrad]

Re: Devlin1 KA Question

 

I found this in the FAQ. Although it does not settle the matter, it might help.

 

 

"Q: Can a character used Telekinesis through a Force Wall without buying the Indirect Advantage for that power?

 

 

 

A: Yes. As noted on 5E 147, bottom left, Telekinesis has some inherently Indirect aspects. As long as the Force Wall is not Opaque (i.e., the character can see through it), he can use his Telekinesis without buying Indirect for it."