The Duplication Paradox

[devlin1]

Forgive me if this has come up before, but I see a weird paradox with Duplication. Well, okay, not a paradox per se, but an anti-loophole, at least.

 

I want to make an exact duplicate of myself. Fair enough. So I buy Duplication for 70 points to make a 350 point duplicate. However, if he's an exact duplicate, he also has Duplication for 70 points. It's either that or he has a full 70 points of other powers I, the original, don't have. I didn't want that; I just wanted one copy of myself.

 

Okay. So instead, I drop that to a 280 point duplicate. But that only costs 56 points, so now I'm 14 points up on my "exact" duplicate. I don't want that either; I want him to be a Xerox copy, just without the Duplication.

 

To make an exact copy (sans Duplication in the duplicate), and without any other Limitations on the power (Costs END, Extra Time, etc.), I'll always have to make him a 291-point duplicate.

 

This seems awkward to me, but I can't put my finger on exactly why. Does anyone else see this as weirdly restrictive?

[Fenixcrest]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

It took me forever to wrap my brain around duplication, but here's how I finally interpreted it-

 

When you make your 350-point duplicate, it has all your abilities except for duplication. The duplication points are just taken out, while the others remain. You pay for a 350pt duplicate. He has all of your powers etc, but he doesn't have the duplication, except as much as allows him to recombine. However, he still pays the points for it.

 

I'm not doing a very good job of explaining this....

 

Character A is 350pts. Duplicate B is also 350pts. However, Duplicate B's "Duplication" power is... imaginary, let's call it. It's there, but it can't be used. It's a balance thing, I guess, since with a Duplicate you can reintegrate it into yourself and it's pretty much always loyal to you; whereas with a Summon, if it's dead you have to summon it all over again, and you probably have to negotiate with it every time, too.

[DocMan]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

But what if you want the duplicates to be able to create additional duplicates? You should just be able to use one character sheet, but note that limitations on duplication apply equally to all duplicates.

 

i.e. if you can have 4 duplicates, then A can make B, then A can make C and B can make D, but at that point none of them can make further duplicates until someone recombine. Some duplicating characters are made without the concept of an "original". All duplicates are equally "the character".

 

Doc

[Fenixcrest]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

But what if you want the duplicates to be able to create additional duplicates? You should just be able to use one character sheet, but note that limitations on duplication apply equally to all duplicates.

 

i.e. if you can have 4 duplicates, then A can make B, then A can make C and B can make D, but at that point none of them can make further duplicates until someone recombine. Some duplicating characters are made without the concept of an "original". All duplicates are equally "the character".

 

Doc

 

I think in that case, you'd pay for each duplicate being 25% different, and give each one its own duplication power, either at the cost of other abilities or (if the GM permits it) by giving the duplicate more points than the original. In this case, duplicate D would at that point just not have duplication as a power. However, this being the case, each duplicate could only recombine with its own progenator (sp?)

 

In the case of all duplicates being "the character," just make one character that churns out a whole bunch of duplicates, and give them Mind Link.

[JmOz]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

Your math is wrong, the break point is 292 (the Duplication power costs 58)

[DocMan]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

I think in that case, you'd pay for each duplicate being 25% different, and give each one its own duplication power, either at the cost of other abilities or (if the GM permits it) by giving the duplicate more points than the original. In this case, duplicate D would at that point just not have duplication as a power. However, this being the case, each duplicate could only recombine with its own progenator (sp?)

 

In the case of all duplicates being "the character," just make one character that churns out a whole bunch of duplicates, and give them Mind Link.

 

Actually, the concept in the above example is that none of them can duplicate once they hit saturation, but they can recombine with any other. So if B and C recombine, then A, B, or D will be able to duplicate again.

 

The classic example is Marvel's Multiple man. He had a very high number of total duplicates, so for the most part, he didn't seem to have a limit. Each duplicate was as much Jamie Madrox as any other, including "the original" and any two could recombine and all had the power to cureate further duplicates until he hit total saturation (which I believe happened once). But there was no mind link between the dups. They could talk to each other, or recombine. They had no other way of sharing information.

 

Doc

[Tim]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

The classic example is Marvel's Multiple >snip< and all had the power to cureate further duplicates until he hit total saturation (which I believe happened once).

Doc

 

 

Yep, in X-Factor. When fighting himself. after saturation, the rest of x-factor went around KOing the dups and counting them out loud. I forget just how many he got up to.

[DocMan]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

Yep' date=' in X-Factor. When fighting himself. after saturation, the rest of x-factor went around KOing the dups and counting them out loud. I forget just how many he got up to.[/quote']

 

And that was just the dups that were in that fight! Later in the series they kept discovering some of Jaimie's dups that had run away to try to make a separate life of their own. They even did that after the "original" Jaimie had died.

 

Doc

[Vorsch]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

6th ed will also probabilly change the duplication rules ( every other edition has ), Hero rules has yet to do duplication with anything approaching compentancy game balance or efficiency.

[devlin1]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

Your math is wrong' date=' the break point is 292 (the Duplication power costs 58)[/quote']

According to HeroDesigner, it's 291. But you get the idea.

[Vorsch]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

If the duplicates are not under the players controll then its summon.

 

Herodesigner ocasionaly gets things wrong.

[devlin1]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

If the duplicates are not under the players controll then its summon.

 

Okay.

 

Herodesigner ocasionaly gets things wrong.

Of this, I am aware.

 

So... it seems to me like the only real advice on this so far is that I should pay the extra points on the duplicate and not get anything for the points. I find it hard to believe that this is what The Designers intended.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

The rules of Duplication specifically mention that you pay 70pts for a 350pt Duplicate who is really a copy of your remaining 280pts. pg101 - "The cost... is '1 for every 5 of the original' (including points from disadvantages and the points spent on duplication)."

 

The FAQ goes into Duplication extensively where it is stated that if you don't like the above to go and find the break point which is 291-292ish for a 350pt character needing only 1 dulication with no advantages/adders/limiations on Duplication.

 

The FAQ also mentions that the Duplicate does not get Duplication even though you paid for a 350pt character you really only get the 280pt character. This is a simplification for those who don't want to break their minds trying to find the break point of Dup., or at leat don't want to spend the time to do so. Hero Designer, from what I can tell, calculate Duplication correctly but may round differently than you might.

 

If you're making a Dup that has different capabilities or is buily on less points you have an Advantage to add onto it and buy Duplication only at the point level you wish to be duplicated at - a 100pt Dup that is 100% different only costs 40pts. (20pts for 100pt Duplicate, +1 "100% different Duplicate").

 

Alternately, if you're making a duplicate and are not, for whatever reason, under some kind of character point guideline, then build the character and simply add on what it would actually cost to make a duplicate of the same points (a 300 pt character with 1 Exact Duplicate pays 60pts becoming a 360pt Character in actual cost but Duplicates only the 300pts that don't have Duplication) - this is a sidestep method to finding a point-break location.

 

Duplication isn't clunky, IMO, it's just a weird power to try and simulate with the 1-5 rule .. there could be two sperate powers, one to create different duplicates (using the 1-5 method) and one to simply "make a copy" using a base cost, where you can ONLY make an exact copy that is that same except it doesnt have "duplication" itself.

[Demonsong]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

So players are expected to just throw away an extra 14 points? No I don’t think so.

 

Even if it is technically, by the exact letter of the rules, it would be a very anal retentive GM that forced there players to just throw away 14 extra points. I certainly wouldn’t do it.

 

But then what do I know.

 

Demonsong

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

So players are expected to just throw away an extra 14 points? No I don’t think so.

 

Even if it is technically, by the exact letter of the rules, it would be a very anal retentive GM that forced there players to just throw away 14 extra points. I certainly wouldn’t do it.

 

But then what do I know.

 

Demonsong

 

FWIW, I'm on the same page. Then again, I'm not sure why Duplication can't just be folded into the Summon rules anyway. Maybe in 6e...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

FWIW' date=' I'm on the same page. Then again, I'm not sure why Duplication can't just be folded into the Summon rules anyway. Maybe in 6e...[/quote']

Probably because if you lose a duplicate, you lose the points invested into it..."the character has lost part of himself." I'd also be very disappointed in the player if a character who lost a part of themselves didn't have some kind of adverse psychological reaction to that event.

 

With a Summon, if the thing gets killed, you Summon another just like it next time.

 

Also, using the Summon rules, you'd have to pay for Slavishly Loyal and Specific Being...which makes it very expensive.

 

On the other hand, if you're going to lose the points if the Summoned (Duplicated) 'you' gets killed, perhaps the cost could be balanced out with a specialized form of the Independent limitation would work. That would put the Real cost back down about the same as a straight Duplication.

 

But now we've got a problem with the Active cost, which is going to be way over campaign max if you're doing a full Duplicate of yourself using Summon as I outlined above. This leads to either

 

a) characters can't make a duplicate of themselves with more than 1/3 their total points, or

 

you have special dispensation to ignore campaign max for Summon when used for purposes of Duplication.

 

(a) breaks genre, ( is complicated, messy, and sets some bad precedents.

 

Given that, I really don't think it's a good idea to try and roll Duplication into Summon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Duplication Paradox

 

I don't know what Steve's reasoning was, I don't care.

 

Between the rules and the FAQ you have two choices:

1) simply pay Xpts for a Duplicate based off of your characters Base Points (350 for a standard super) who is then also considered the same Base Points, has all the same exact abilities but does not have Duplication. [in the case of a 350pt Char that is two 280pt Duplicates of each other]. It's simple math, easy to explain.

2)Or you go and find the point break where the Points you put into Duplication will bring the Base Character and the Duplicate to the exact same level. Hero Designer happily lets you know that you may have 2 291pt characters for 59pts of Duplication in the Base Character of 350pts.

[for those who believe that HD is wrong, go tell Dan see what happens. And realize that 1for5 Powers such as this do not 'round', you pay the points for the next Highest point total, 286-290pts = 58pt cost; 291-295pts = 59pt cost. Steve has been pretty clear on that concept from everything I've ever read.]

 

There is a reason that Duplication is not in Sidekick .. it's not a simple power. Not to mention that it is a ! power.

 

Alternately, if you are creating a Duplicate that is NOT the same as the Base Character, ignore all the above, build the Duplicate and simply figure out the costs - using the 25%-100% Different Advantage and you don't have to worry about it since the Duplicate isn't the same, may be built off of less points even, or possibly more (but I'd look at the one real close, possibly even disallow it flat out).