HKA Damage Sheilds?

[Dust Raven]

This is something I've noticed for quite a while and keep forgetting to post. It concerns something I keep seeing on published characters.

 

What's the deal with making HKA Damage Shields and putting -1/2 STR Doesn't Add Damage Limitation on it? Isn't that a lot like buying a RKA Damage Shield and putting -1/2 No Range? It's the exact same cost for the exact same effect. Exact.

 

To me, this is published, condoned and legalized rules abuse. How come only HKA can benifit from this? Can HA? Imagine what that would do? You could have an HA 8d6 Continuous Damage Shield (100 Active) Hand Attack (-1/2 and STR Does Not Add Damage -1/2 for 50 Real Cost. Does that seem at all abusive?

 

If this is all allowed, why not just allow No Range -1/2 on Ranged Powers made into Damage Shields? Seems like it would actually make some affects more viable points-wise.

 

What does everyone else think?

[Bloodstone]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

I don't know if I've seen the write ups your talking about, but if the power is writen up as an Offensive Damage Shield (ie, such as a fire aura...does damge when you are hit, grabbed or when you are hit or grab somone) then that seems to makes sense to me.

 

If you do not have this limitation, when you punch somone with your flaming fist you would do base Punch damge (based on STR) and then would do HKA damage. That damage would be base HKA damage and then would get yet another boost from your STR. IN other words, without the lim, your double dipping on your STR for every hit.

 

Unless you are talking about something else entierly...

[Dust Raven]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

I don't know if I've seen the write ups your talking about, but if the power is writen up as an Offensive Damage Shield (ie, such as a fire aura...does damge when you are hit, grabbed or when you are hit or grab somone) then that seems to makes sense to me.

 

If you do not have this limitation, when you punch somone with your flaming fist you would do base Punch damge (based on STR) and then would do HKA damage. That damage would be base HKA damage and then would get yet another boost from your STR. IN other words, without the lim, your double dipping on your STR for every hit.

 

Unless you are talking about something else entierly...

The way it works, as I understand it, is that if you don't apply the STR Doesn't Add To Damage Limitation, your STR would add to the HKA when you are hit in HTH or grab our opponent. So if it doesn't, it's a legitimate Lim.

 

However, it's the exact same effect as buying an RKA with Damage Shield. STR doesn't add to that by at all under any circumstances. But for some reason it cost more, even though the effect, mechanics wise, is identical.

[Bloodstone]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

The way it works, as I understand it, is that if you don't apply the STR Doesn't Add To Damage Limitation, your STR would add to the HKA when you are hit in HTH or grab our opponent

 

My understanding is that you ONLY got to apply STR mods to an HKA damage shield if you have it writen up as an Offensive damage shield, and then only if you did not take the "No STR bonus" lim...

 

Anyhow, I think I now see where you are coming from, but that is one of the side effects of damage shiled: it makes a power No Range without giving you any points back. So really, you do not want to ever use it with something like EB or RKA...

 

So you build it with HKA, shich inherently has no range. If you don't want something that deadly, I think you can build it with HA for the same overall cost as well, but I'm not sure...so lets try it out....

 

Deadly Flaming Aura: HKA 1d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (41 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2)

 

Not-so-Deadly Flaming Aura: HA +3d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (41 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

Both should cost you 27 real points...not sure if that second one is quite legel though...

 

if you go with RKA or EB, you get hosed on the points:

 

Deadly Flaming Aura II: RKA 1d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (41 Active Points)

 

Not-so-Deadly Flaming Aura II: EB 3d6, Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (41 Active Points)

 

In this case, both powers cost you 41 real points for the exact same effect, since you are paying for the range that you never get to use...

[Dust Raven]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

That's exactly what I'm getting at. One costs quite a bit less than the other, but has the exact same effect as the more expensive one. If you were allowed to apply No Range to the ranged Attack Powers, the cost would come out even and be quite fair, but for some reason it's not legal.

 

It's something I've been meaning to complain about for a while now but figure there's no use posting in the Questions board. So far, just about every "why?" question has been moved here. I do wish I rememberd earlier. I could have brought it up in time for 5ER.

[Descant]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

What's the deal with making HKA Damage Shields and putting -1/2 STR Doesn't Add Damage Limitation on it? Isn't that a lot like buying a RKA Damage Shield and putting -1/2 No Range? It's the exact same cost for the exact same effect. Exact.

 

To me, this is published, condoned and legalized rules abuse. How come only HKA can benifit from this? Can HA? Imagine what that would do? You could have an HA 8d6 Continuous Damage Shield (100 Active) Hand Attack (-1/2 and STR Does Not Add Damage -1/2 for 50 Real Cost. Does that seem at all abusive?

 

If this is all allowed, why not just allow No Range -1/2 on Ranged Powers made into Damage Shields? Seems like it would actually make some affects more viable points-wise.

 

So... what you are saying (just to clarify, since I got confused myself there!) is that there is a rule against RKA Damage Shield (-1/2 No Range), but there is not a rule against HKA Damage Shield (-1/2 STR Doesn't Add Damage), and these two constructs cost the same, and provide the same mechanics and points and do the same damage?

 

And you are essentially complaining that HERO, after making the rule against the first, has published characters that are written up using the second?

 

That does seem a bit fishy to me... if that's what you were getting at.

[Bloodstone]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

So what do you feel is the correct solution then?

 

Would you allow No Range to be appled to RKA and EB based Damage Shields? Doesn't that imply by default that Damage Shields with those powers would have range? I'm thinking that could get pretty dangerous and might make Missle Deflection obsolete...

 

Or would you simply say that powers are REQUIRED to be made No Range before they can be put in a Damage Shield?

[Dust Raven]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

So... what you are saying (just to clarify, since I got confused myself there!) is that there is a rule against RKA Damage Shield (-1/2 No Range), but there is not a rule against HKA Damage Shield (-1/2 STR Doesn't Add Damage), and these two constructs cost the same, and provide the same mechanics and points and do the same damage?

 

And you are essentially complaining that HERO, after making the rule against the first, has published characters that are written up using the second?

 

That does seem a bit fishy to me... if that's what you were getting at.

Exactly. Quite trout-like indeed.

[Guest Weston]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

I hate to admit it, but the munchkin in me immediately saw this particular, um, "construct" too. The way I look at it is that there is simply no reason to use RKA in a damage shield, and given that damage shields are more expensive than they used to be (and I'll bet that must have already generated a lengthy thread or three on this forum), I don't feel too bad in using HKA. And an HKA damage shield to which one cannot add STR damage definitely is less powerful than one that lacks such a limitation.

 

As I see it, the problem here is not with damage shields per se but with the somewhat artificial distinction between RKAs and HKAs. It's as if there used to be a proto-KA power that cost 10 pts. per 1d6 of HTH killing damage, but now only modified versions of it remain. One of these descendent versions has the Ranged (+1/2) advantage built in, and one has a STR Adds To Damage And Converts To Killing Damage (+1/2) advantage built in. I think it would be more elegant to get back to basics and just have that original KA power again, and allow folks to add advantages and limitations to it as they see fit. But I freely admit that I've never tried to use that power in one of my own games and I have no idea what munchkin mayhem would result from doing so.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

Dust Raven, the exact case you describe is one of the main precedents that led me to House Rule that Ranged Powers used in a Damage Shield can take the "No Range" Limitation. I simply can't justify a Real Point price discount of up to one-third between two identical power constructs based (effectively) on what each one is called. I've seen Steve Long refer to this discrepancy as "a quirk of the system," but to me it's too large to qualify as a "quirk."

 

Bloodstone, I could see applying No Range as a default condition for most Damage Shield constructs, in the same way that "Hand-To-Hand Attack" is applied to Strength or EB when a particular mechanic is desired. The exception would be HKA (which obviously already has a comparable Limitation), and Adjustment Powers. Adjustments wouldn't be a major problem as an exception IMHO, because Power Defense tends to be rare in most campaigns, balancing the higher Real Point cost without the Lim.

 

The application of Range to Damage Shields doesn't make sense for the construct in most cases and would be potentially unbalancing, as Bloodstone points out. However, there are a couple of cases where it would make sense. One is if a Damage Shield is Usable On Others, and the possessor of the DS wants to give it to others who are some distance from him. The other would be if the DS is Linked to some other Constant Ranged effect. There's actually an example power like this on FREd p. 117, the "Wall of Fire": a Force Wall with Linked RKA. (Interestingly, the Damage Shield in that example does not have the Ranged Advantage.) In cases like these I would have no problem with removing a No Range Lim from the DS construct.

 

Unfortunately, Dust Raven, I doubt that you can expect this issue to be addressed in 5ER. Steve Long has said that he does not intend any rules changes per se to go into that revision, and he's already made it clear that he's quite satisfied with Damage Shield as it is.

 

BTW Weston, your point about Killing Attacks makes sense, but I think that the broader issue of Damage Shield also affects all the other Powers to which DS could be applied.

[SirViss]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

I just instituted a "House Rule" in my camapign (as of the reading of this thread ), that the players will only be able to use HKA (or RKA, haven't really decided which) to build Damage Shield. I'm leaning towards HKA, because Damage Shields are so expensive.

 

Of course, this only applies if the power is a KA. I haven't given it much thought, but I will try to get something that will apply Killing Attacks and Normal attacks in the same way.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

I am glad Dust Raven openned this thread, It's been too long since I communed with my inner munchkin.

 

I may be having a 'Mountain-Dew' moment but I never understood how an attack defined as an HKA, (that is an attack original defaulted to allow STR to add damage) be defined as doing 'Energy' based damage. I guess I never noticed the point discrepancy between the two methods but this special effect goof actually bothered me more.

 

Maybe I am getting hung up on the meanings of the words in too much detail. T To me Flame=Energy=(RKA or EB) but not HKA defined as doing Energy damage. Hand to Hand attacks have always seemed to have the implied meaning of PD damage and RKA could go both ways, but not the other way around.

 

Anyone else have this thought?

[schir1964]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

This is something I've noticed for quite a while and keep forgetting to post. It concerns something I keep seeing on published characters...

I had this dicussion with my players a long time ago. I ruled that if you want a Killing Attack with Damage Shield that gives no STR Bonus, you must use an RKA, and apply all rules as normal.

 

One of those wierd loopholes in the rules that makes no since for consistency.

 

Just My Humble Opinion (8^D)

[Dust Raven]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

I am glad Dust Raven openned this thread' date=' It's been too long since I communed with my inner munchkin. [/quote']Always commune with your inner munchkin, just don't feed it after midnight .

 

I may be having a 'Mountain-Dew' moment but I never understood how an attack defined as an HKA, (that is an attack original defaulted to allow STR to add damage) be defined as doing 'Energy' based damage. I guess I never noticed the point discrepancy between the two methods but this special effect goof actually bothered me more.

 

Maybe I am getting hung up on the meanings of the words in too much detail. T To me Flame=Energy=(RKA or EB) but not HKA defined as doing Energy damage. Hand to Hand attacks have always seemed to have the implied meaning of PD damage and RKA could go both ways, but not the other way around.

 

Anyone else have this thought?

I would disagree, but only slightly. Obviously an Energy Blast that is versus PD sounds ridiculous, but it's possible and necessary. The same is true of HKA versus ED. Imagine a light saber. You've seen the movies. If STR doesn't add to damage then what's with all those heavy swings? I suppose the same would be true of a "light-tonfa".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

What happens if you get a munchkin wet?

 

My appologies ahead of time for the scatterbrain structure of this reply. Feel free as always to poke holes in my flawed logic!

 

I did not use the Lightsaber/Energy Sword example in my earlier post because I have seen several different versions of this weapon concept that treat it as a RKA with no range (see Star Hero page 148) but not too many that use HKA with Str does not add damage. Seems as though the writers of Star Hero give RKA the 'energy' preference over HKA like I do as well.

 

I have never visualized the blade of an 'energy' sword as having any mass. The original method used by Lucas and company to render wooden sticks to appear on screen as energy blades is the cause for the swinging effort by the actors as opposed to what should be no harder to swing than the beam of a flashlight (I know, I know, too much realism!!) Now that modern special effects could maybe eliminate this 'flaw', Lucas chooses not to so he can maintain continuity and I can respect that.

 

On a related note i remember the comic 'Legion of SuperHeroes' had a villian team called 'The Fatal Five'. One member of that group called 'Mano' had one main power. A negative energy source on the palm of his hand that disintigrated anything he touched. I think most people would choose to write this up as RKA no range as well.

 

Another way to visualize the problem with allowing a HKA to do energy damage is when it is constructed with no limitations at all. This raises the question of how Strength is increasing the dice of damage on an 'Energy' based HKA? (I think this is what the designers of the Energy Sword in Star Hero thought as well).

 

Energy Blast actually is very easy to imagine as a PD attack, take a classic Green Lantern blast or any Telekinetic. I am imagining EB's higher than any punch based on the STR of the TK these characters may have. Granted GL should be able to choose either PD or ED based attacks based on the rings abilites but you get my drift.

 

I know I am probably splitting hairs on something that does not affect game balance but it does appear strange that Steve Long ruled that Damage Sheilds must use HKA wherther energy or physical based ( I guess he was visualizing the cleric spell 'Wall of Swords' from D&D or something ).

[Dust Raven]

Re: HKA Damage Sheilds?

 

It's one of the marvels of the Hero System...

 

I agree that when you get right down to it, energy blades and such wouldn't logically be aided by STR. But the option is open. There are still a number of options. Say you have a magical "negative energy sword". Would your STR add to the damage? Maybe... depends upon the magic and how that works. There's a lot of rubber science that can be applied to light sabers though. Sure, none of it will hold up to real world physics or even logic, but heck, it's a comic book universe!