Damage Evaluation

[Super Squirrel]

I'm trying to determine the amount of damage a nuclear submarine would take if it was attacked by a colony of elasmosauri including at least one move through made on the submarine.

 

http://www.mce.k12tn.net/dinosaurs/elasmosaurus.htm

[Kdansky]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

How about: "As much as fits the plot"?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

How about: "As much as fits the plot"?

Except for possibly causing damage to small items on the exterior such as periscopes and antennae, I doubt dinosaurs or prehistoric reptiles of any kind could actually damage a nuclear submarine.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

I would take a look at some similar sized dinasaurs from Beastiary and extrapolate damage from there. Shouldn't be TOO different from a T-Rex other than swimming (sorry I don't have the book in front of me now).

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

I don't have any books in front of me, and I'm not a paleontologist, so take all of this with that in mind. To me, the Elasmosaur really isn't comparable to a T-Rex. It was carnivorous, sure, but I always though of it more as a whale eating small fish than a shark taking bites out of big fish. Based on that, here's my assumptions:

 

Your average whale moves ("walking") at about 4-6 knots, with bursts of speeds to catch food or mates that may be twice that ("running"). The elasmosaur is about the size of a medium whale (Humpback Whale: 40-50ft long, 25-40tons) no tail fin, I'll assume an average speed of 5 knots, which translates to approximately 9250 meters/hour (4625 game inches).

 

Next comes the issue of SPD. I, personally, don't picture the elasmosaur as having a SPD 6, or even 4, though you might disagree (or the plot may dictate otherwise). So, a little math and some approximation and a SPD 2 elasmosaur would Swim 8"/phase while a SPD 3 elsmosaur would Swim 5"/phase. (There's a bit of rounding in there which causes a 300" discrepancy over an hour...but this is mostly guesstimation anyway.) Which one you choose will depend on what kind of campaign you are running.

 

So, we've figured out what I would consider walking or maybe jogging speed for the elasmosaur. What about the "bursts of speed" which would be used in a move-through? For simplicity's sake, I think doubling the base movement is the answer. So, in combat, an elasmosaur with a SPD 2 could swim at a velocity of about 16" meaning (+v/3) an additional 5D6.

 

Now you just have to figure out the elasmosaur's strength. They tend to be about half the size as Brachiosaurs, and have somewhat similar body shapes. Also, the environment that elasmosaurs live in is radically different, where the effects of gravity isn't brought to bear on them nearly as much. This could cause the elasmosaur to not be as strong or heavy overall. Let's assume STR 85, given 90 for its size and weight (pulled more or less out of the air using Growth and DI as a basis) minus about 5 for environment.

 

So a Move-Through caused by an enraged elasmosaur could do 22-24D6 (If it's enraged, it might be Pushing), averaging the same in BODY. Move-Bys would do about half that, Tail bashes and slams would average about 17D6. I'd guess bite damage about 3D6+1 HKA w/STR max (pulled that one out of my butt).

 

So, what's the DEF of the outer hull of a nuclear submarine? If it's less than 20, they might have a problem.

 

 

Discalimer: All of this is guesswork based on a few minutes of Internet research. If you've got better numbers for any of the above, feel free to correct me and/or present a better solution. Thank you.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Thank you.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Thank you.

 

No problem. It was a good distraction from work.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

Sharp teeth indicates a preditor, and the long neck implies it attacks though speed by snapping at smaller prey. It's body shape indicates that maneuvers like a Move Through would cause more damae to it than it would to anything it attacked.

 

But, lets look at the Besteary!

 

There's a write-up for a Plesiosaurus, which is basically the same thing as an elasmosaurus, but about human size (the write-up actually says this in it's description). You can use the same write-up, increasing it's STR and Bite attack accordingly (and possibly it's Swimming as well, but not likely).

 

I'd suggest a STR of around 40, maybe 45-50, and a bite attack of 1d6+1 HKA (for 2 1/2d6 total). This isn't likely to penetrate the hull of any military sub, though it might civilian models. It's also more likely to flee from anything as bit as it is or larger than it is to attack it.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

Perhaps before our poor elasmosaur pack takes on a nuclear sub with move troughs, it needs to have been exposed to nuclear fallout, thus mutating them into Nesszilla!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

I'd suggest a STR of around 40' date=' maybe 45-50, and a bite attack of 1d6+1 HKA (for 2 1/2d6 total). This isn't likely to penetrate the hull of any military sub, though it might civilian models. It's also more likely to flee from anything as bit as it is or larger than it is to attack it.[/quote']Quite so. Dinosaurs are only animals, after all, and any military sub is going to be at least two or three times bigger than any swimming prehistoric critter. IIRC correctly a Los Angeles class nuclear attack sub is about 300 feet long; three times as big as a blue whale which itself is larger than any prehistoric reptile.

 

When I transported our team (along with a sizeable chunk of the University of Montana) back to the Cretaceous for an adventure last year, one of our team members was shocked when he flattened an entire small pack of velociraptors with a single 8d6 Area Effect blast. I told him "What did you expect? They're only animals; they're essentially two-legged tigers."

 

Despite decades of movies; dinosaurs are still just big animals. They are a serious threat to normals, but not to most superhumans (Although one of our MAs almost got swallowed whole by a 48 foot long Cretaceous crocodile.)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

Yeah. Those prehistoric crocs were probably the most vicious of the dinosaurs with the most powerful bite, if I remember correctly.

[beauxdeigh]

Elasmosaurs and Plesiosaurs and Sharks...

 

By the dark powers I summon thee! Arise!

 

Alright. There has been some criticism of my original estimations on the strength and power of an elasmosaur. Rightfully so because, as I admitted, it was mostly guestimation based on a brief glance at the stats at the given link and about ten minutes of very shallow internet research. So, a revised creation is called for. Something based on a bit more research. To that end, I did a couple of hours of search and skim on the actual beastie in question. here are the relevant facts I uncovered:

 

An elasmosaur is considered to be related to the plesiosaur, but the plesiosaur is considered the short-neck cousin. An elasmosaur's neck is presumed to account for more than half of its body length, having up to 71 vertebrae in all. This means that a Move-Through is likely to be a tricky maneuver for the creatures, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible. An elsmosaur will also grow to be much larger than the plesiosaur.

 

The biggest elasmosaur I could find in my search was the Elasmosaurus platyurus, discovered by Dr. Theophilus Turner in 1868. A skeleton recreation can be found here. It is just over 14 meters long (~45 feet). Eight to eight and a half of those meters would be neck, however. Still, using R. McNeil Alexander's calculations from his method of estimating plesiosaur weight (the amount of water displaced by a model is used to compute the mass of a real beast - linkage ) a beast this size would weigh over 10,000kg (~11 tons). This is significantly less than my earlier guess at a medium sized whale (25-40 tons), but significantly more than that of the human sized plesiosaur found in the Bestiary.

 

Fortunately, the Bestiary has a suggestion for the elasmosaur in the description for the plesiosaur: apply the Size template found on pages 26 & 27. Compared to the listed plesiosaur, the elasmosaur would apply the Huge template (5-8 times normal size). So an elasmosaur would have approximately 45 more strength than the plesiosaur, giving it a total strength of 65. Again, significantly less than my earlier estimation.

 

As to the sharp teeth -> predator issue. The elasmosaur (and plesiosaur for that matter) are considered to be carnivores, dining on fish, small ammonites and other invertebrates. That really wasn't being argued. However, they are far from the 'T-Rex of the sea'. That position would really be held by prehistoric sharks. Their suggested method of hunting was to paddle along the surface of the water with their heads high and then plunge when food was spotted, snapping up it's prey. It is doubtful that they would go after anything bigger then their head, based on the discovered stomach contents. Pure opinion: I'd make their bite 2d6K w/STR due to their increased size and strength in comparison to the Plesiosaur.

 

Now, as to the swim speed of the elasmosaur. Unlike the plesiosaur, which was likely able to swim rather fast (note its swimming and SPD charcteristic in the Bestiary) when pursuing their prey, the elasmosaur is considered to probably be slower moving. Compared to the plesiosaur, I'll go with a SPD of 2 with 8 total inches of Swimming. This makes them considerably slower (half the distance over a Turn) than the faster plesiosaur, but still gives them a bit of speed when striking their prey. Rounding in the elasmosaur's favor, that would give it a Move Through of around 16d6. Once again, considerably less than my earlier estimation.

 

I hope this is considered a more realistic representation of the beast in question. Whether anyone cares or not anymore is another thing entirely.

 

Something else I found out. It's actually considered likely that this type of creature gave birth to their offspring live like mammals, or sharks, and not by laying eggs like a turtle as had been earlier postulated. Could you imagine a 45' long, 11 ton creature beaching itself to lay eggs? Yikes.

 

:: image removed ::

[LordGhee]

Re: Damage Evaluation

 

Animals do attk subs go here : http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=bear_sub1.htm