KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

[Guest Weston]

(lurk mode disengaged)

 

A discussion in another thread in this forum (HKA Damage Sheilds? started by Dust Raven) got me to thinking about the relationship between the two types of Killing Attacks. As I said in my post in that thread, it seems like RKA and HKA are each an example of a more basic ur-power that has had an advantage applied to it. If we imagine a more basic power called Killing Attack, then RKAs and HKAs fall into line very well.

 

Killing Attack

(Standard Power/Attack Power; Instant; No Range)

1d6 of KA costs 10 Character Points (adding a single point of Killing

Damage to a KA costs 3 points; adding a half die costs 5 points).

KA costs END to use.

With this power an RKA is simply a KA with the advantage Ranged (+1/2). An HKA is a KA with the advantage STR Adds To And Converts To Killing Damage (+1/2). Note that the latter advantage is not built into the KA power automatically.

 

 

It seems like there are advantages and disadvantages to this approach. The main advantage is that it removes the artificial separation between HKAs and RKAs, which are essentially the same power. There’s no need to take an HKA with the No STR Bonus limitation and no reason to buy a No Range RKA.

The disadvantage of this approach seems to be that in some cases it effectively lowers the active point cost of killing damage attacks. For example, since a STR Bonus is not built into the cost of a KA, it would be possible to get more dice of a KA Damage Shield under an Active Cost cap than one could get by buying an HKA with the No STR Bonus limitation.

 

 

Anyway, what do you folks think about this? This is more of a mental exercise than a serious proposal—I won’t be incorporating this change into my game anytime soon. But I figure that if anyone can poke holes in or perfect the idea, they’ll be members of this forum!

[schir1964]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

A very elegant solution. Hopefully, it might become standard in the 6th Edition someday. (8^D)

[BNakagawa]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

A decent idea with a serious drawback.

 

Making the base d6 of killing 10 AP results in making the KA even MORE prone to advantage stacking than it already is.

 

2d6 RKA with AP and +2 stun mod is currently 60AP.

2d6 KA with ranged, AP and +2 stun mod would be 50AP, freeing up room for another +1/2 advantage like 0end, invisible power fx or affects desolid or whatever else floats your boat.

[Guest Weston]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

Making the base d6 of killing 10 AP results in making the KA even MORE prone to advantage stacking than it already is.

 

2d6 RKA with AP and +2 stun mod is currently 60AP.

2d6 KA with ranged, AP and +2 stun mod would be 50AP, freeing up room for another +1/2 advantage like 0end, invisible power fx or affects desolid or whatever else floats your boat.

Yep, that's definitely another drawback. And one shared with "cheap" versions of other powers. HAs used to be notorious for that kind of thing, which is why they were revised to their current version in 5E, I'm sure.

 

Flashes against nontargeting senses are a current example of this phenomenon. I'm still waiting for a player to try to sneak a 10d6 Flash vs. Hearing group, Does KB (+1/4), Double KB (+3/4) (60 active points) by me.

 

But then, that's what GMs are for, right? Advantage stacking is a known phenomenon that pops up around NNDs, RKAs, Drains, Damage Shields of all types, etc. Just gotta be on the lookout for it...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

I like it.

 

A doubling of the standard cost of damage sheilds might make it fit more in line with current power costs.

 

The only problem I see is that the active cost of a 'straight' killing attack might be too low for the taste of some since it now means a 60 active point KA with no advantages is 6D6 !!

[schir1964]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

I like it.

 

A doubling of the standard cost of damage sheilds might make it fit more in line with current power costs.

 

The only problem I see is that the active cost of a 'straight' killing attack might be too low for the taste of some since it now means a 60 active point KA with no advantages is 6D6 !!

How is this different than having an HKA with 30 STR?

 

Do you cap it at 4d6 even though the STR makes it 6d6?

 

It costs a little more since you are buying more STR, but I don't see how the 6d6 by itself will unbalance things.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

Sorry I did not give an example of why this might be a problem.

 

Instead of HKA take a look at the 'new' 10 point/dice KA in place of a RKA with a no range (-1/2) limitation. Yep, alone they cost the same. Does this hold true if they are part of a Multipower or a VPP? Nope.

 

Given: 60 point Multipower Pool

 

 

• (CURRENT) 4D6 RKA with no range (-1/2) still has an 'active' pool cost of 60. Only the slot cost will be effected by the no range (m8 or u4)
  
• (PROPOSED) 6D6 KA for 60 active and real cost, on the slot costs would increase (m12 or u6)
  

2-4 points giving a full +2D6 Killing is a BIG difference in my eyes.

 

Another example: If I want to use a multipower I have to have a 90 point pool to have a 18D6 EB even with no range (-1/2).

 

Also, 10 points does not seem to fit with the all the other 5 point /15 point breakpoints built into the system already with Damage Classes, Transform effects etc.

 

Even a 'META' system such as HERO appears to need its own smallest building blocks for a good reasons.

[schir1964]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

Given: 60 point Multipower Pool

 

• 4D6 RKA (60 AP)
  
• 4d6 HKA [6d6 with STR] (60 AP)
  
• 6D6 KA (60 AP)
  
• 4D6 KA, Ranged +1/2 (60 AP)
  
• 4D6 KA, Adds STR Damage +1/2 [6d6] (60 AP)
  

 

Notice that the only difference here is the +2 Dice for a default of (No Range, No STR Add). This restrictiveness to balances the additional +2 Dice in benefit. I still don't see how this is more unbalancing than many other constructs within the system. Therefore, easily controlled by the GM.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

Your other points are well noted.

[BNakagawa]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

Given the relative ease of closing with your enemies in the HERO system, such a structure will simply cause people to close to HtH range to get the 50% bump in damage. (or buy stretching)

 

What this does is render the EB obsolete. A 10Ap KA will at the 60Ap level, do twice as much stun and twice as much knockback to a 28 def target as a 12d6 eb. Assuming a CON of around 20, it will also stun the target most of the time, while the EB will only rarely stun such a target.

 

All you need to do is close with your target. Movement is cheap.

 

6d6 KA multipower slot :6 points.

30" leaping: twentysomething points, depending on what your STR is.

One-shotting OGRE (thank you, Stun lottery): Priceless.

[Vorsch]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

how about KA 3d6 ranged , str adds, SFX thrown blades the stronger you are the harder they hit. a str 60 guy will do 6d6 KA.

[Dust Raven]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

Straight up, I compare this to the damage from STR. You spend 50 points and get a 12d6 punch. Or you can spend 50 points and get a 5d6 KA with no range. The KA is versus limited defenses, does lots more BODY and STUN.

 

The basic reason there are two KAs is that 1d6 of Killing damage equals 3d6 of normal damage. That makes it worth 15 points by default, and is directly comparable to EB.

 

The HTH version is kinda messed though. It's the killing version of a HA (or is HA the normal version of HKA?), though they don't follow the same formula. HA gets an extra 'HA' Limitation, but HKA does not. Not only that, but HA adds to STR damage, not the other way around as with HKA.

 

But for some reason, I'm okay with that. I tend to think of the game being broken if it wasn't that way, even though mathematically it's not balanced.

[Black Rose]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

Please note that I am not necessarily arguing in favor of this concept, but....

 

Has anyone considered the utility of simply making Killing an Advantage? Perhaps somewhere on the order of +1 or +1 1/2, even +2? I admit, I haven't looked closely at the (no doubt inevitable) drawbacks of such, but it does have a certain elegance to it, I think.

 

Xd6 HA: Killing (+2). AC: 3X

Xd6 HKA. AC: 3X

Xd6 HA: Killing (+2), misc. advantages (+3/4). AP: 3.75X

Xd6 HKA: misc. advantages (+3/4). AC: 3.75X

Xd6 HA: Killing (+2); misc. limitations (-3/4). AC: 3X, RC: 1.71X

Xd6 HKA. AC: 3X; misc. limitations (-3/4). AC: 3X, RC: 1.71X

 

So far I do not see any flaws. I am sure they are there, though. Any thoughts?

[Dust Raven]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

You'd have to make it a +2, that way a 1d6 KA costs 15 points.

 

But then you could buy EB 2d6 NND Does BODY KA for only 50 points. About half price compaired to the standard rules.

[Black Rose]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

You'd have to make it a +2, that way a 1d6 KA costs 15 points.

 

But then you could buy EB 2d6 NND Does BODY KA for only 50 points. About half price compaired to the standard rules.

 

Then the question becomes, is a 2d6 RKA; NND, does BODY worth ~90 points? I am not sure it is. OTOH, 50 points or so seems a bit low, true.

[Dust Raven]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

Then the question becomes' date=' is a 2d6 RKA; NND, does BODY [i']worth[/i] ~90 points? I am not sure it is. OTOH, 50 points or so seems a bit low, true.

Well, KA 2d6 NND Does BODY will do on average 7 BODY and 21 STUN, and up to 12 BODY and 60 STUN, with only a "reasonably common" defense to stop it or else it does full damage. Considering an EB 6d6 NND (without Does BODY) costs 60 and does about the same STUN on average (with a max of only 36), I'd say the KA is at least worth 30 points more.

[KA.]

Re: KA: The power at the core of RKA and HKA

 

I don't really think I need to change.

I feel like I am well-balanced the way I am, and that making changes would just add another level of complication to the rules.

Right now, Energy Blast is defined as a more "comic book" type of attack (blaster, repulsor, etc.),

while I am more of a "real world" attack (knife, gun, etc.).

To make a "killing" adder, would just cloud this distinction, and make the game harder for new players to understand.

 

Thanks for your attention,

 

KA.