verbosity Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Being that HERO has such an intelligent character generation system and such a capable gaming engine, why is it the books themselves have such stale and unenticing names? - The HERO System, 5th Edition - Star Hero - Fantasy Hero Fantasy Hero? Wasn't Traci Lords in that one? It sounds like a porno. Champions and Dark Champions are fine names. Champions original softback book is what lured me in. Fortunately the creaters didn't insist on calling them "Superhero Hero" and "Dark Superhero Hero". As a newcomer, would I have bought "Fantasy Hero" without having first known the gaming engine? Not a chance. I'd have looked right next to it and seen something called "Dungeons and Dragons" and thought, "Wow. That sounds way cooler." I bring it up for this reason. I am collecting a gaming group now. I can probably sell them on Champions, I just won't mention it is really "The HERO System, 5th Edition" as that name just sounds bland. (Advanced D&D sounds so much better than D&D Second Edition, as does Windows 2000 over Windows 4.0) You see, my players are teens and have not role-played before except for a bit of "Lord of The Rings" (cool name). They loved the LOTR pencil and paper RPG it and want to try more pencil and paper RPGs, but as computer users they are used to exciting names like "Armored Core", "Devil May Cry", "Kingdom Hearts", and "Final Fantasy". (Okay, I'd admit Final Fantasy sounds like a prono flick too....) No matter how much I explain to them that "Star Hero" is likely a superior game to "Illuminati", "Disciples of Cthulhu", "Forgotten Futures", "Alternate Earths", "Cyberpunk", or "Battletech", the latter just have more mystery and allure. They sound like the real thing. They may not be superior in reality, but any newbie is going to choose one of those over something called "Star Hero", a name I'd expect to see in the clearance bin. As a former manager of a movie cinema, I am convinced that a good movie title can bring an audience in. In initial market research, a movie studio may test out the same fim with several titles and see to which an audience most responds. With the exception of sequels, the title is critical. And unless HERO is content to let its "sequels" live off of the fans from prior versions, won't it need to make it's products sound like quality products? What if "Star Wars" had been called "Galactic Battle", "Space Alliance", "Luke Versus the Man in Black" or "The Jedi Who Made Out With His Sister"? (Okay, so the last one would kill in Tennessee, but still....) It makes me think of a stereotypical genius trait. Geniuses have a tendency to be brilliant in an uncommon way or in an uncommon area of life, while being wholly clueless in common areas of life that most people freely understand and take for granted. I worked for a guy that owned about 6 businesses and was the most insightful and intellectual person I may have ever met. His frailty was that his mind was so logical that he couldn't keep employees. He treated them far too logically, i.e. - "Why should I thank him for doing that? I pay him to do that." Yet people aren't logical. We need to be treated according to our personalities and emotions. And speaking of emotions, is the name "Star Hero" really going to get someone charged up to spend $30.00 and learn 300 pages of rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 There may be some truth to what you say, but do you really think that someone who would plop down $30-$40 for a game because it has a cool name or pretty pictures is going to take the time to learn HERO's rules? If the only way gamers buy games is on the internet or from TV commercials Fantasy HERO might not do so well, but considering that Fred is a large book and right on the back it says you can play anything, that sounds like a selling point to me, I read the description of a game, ask around about it, look for a game so I can try it out before I spend any money on it etc, I do some research and don't really care if it has a great name. Look at GURPS, that sounds more like something you get from dating a porn star not a game but it seems to do well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verbosity Posted March 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 "...Fred is a large book and right on the back it says you can play anything, that sounds like a selling point to me, I read the description of a game, ask around about it, look for a game so I can try it out before I spend any money on it etc, I do some research and don't really care if it has a great name." That makes sense. I think your idea is certainly true of anyone who knows enough about RPGs to make an informed decision. With new players though, I don't think descriptions will mean as much because many of the strong aspects of HERO are things new players can not really appreciate until they understand role playing better. In fact, ability to play in any genre, as Fred boasts on its cover, can actually be a turn off to people because they may feel like Fred will be a generic experience, not one tailored to their favorite genre. And to tell you the truth, when I first heard of Star Hero I remember thinking, "If the title is representative of the creativity within the game, no thanks." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syberdwarf2 Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Most people seem to be pleased with the current state of affairs at Hero Games, as well as with their current line of products. Now, I admit, looking at the titles from your point of view, they aren't really geared to a "cool" sounding name like "dungeons and dragons" or whathaveyou. However, as a long-time Herophile, I'm impressed with their stuff. I've pretty much come to expect a very well put together product. Thus far, DOJ has delivered on that expectation. That's fine for someone like myself, but what about Hero-Newbies? As someone familiar with the rules, it would fall on me to present them with a "title"; probably the title of the campaign or my personal setting. Of course, this does absolutely no good if everyone in the group are complete newbies to the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoth Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Problem here is the Hero System is a generic system that separates campaign world from genre. I mean what can they call it other then Star Hero or Fantasy Hero? And if they did wouldn’t that be more confusing? What about Hero campaigns thou; Terran Empire (ok bad example), or The Turakian Age, or The Kandris Seal? Dungeons and Dragons inherited its name but what about there modern and sci-if system? D20 Modern, Wow that sounds cool Don’t get me wrong, I think there could have been a better name for the system instead of The Hero System 5th. I do however see why they chose to keep the name of their base system The Hero System and superhero genre named Champions to preserve name recognition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 In the particular example of Star HERO , I disagree; I find it to be the punchiest of all the "X HERO" titles to date, and felt that way with the first edition of it as well. And the current edition has that magnificent cover to draw in the casual game browser. OTOH, I did find Fantasy Hero to be a bit wishy-washy when it was first used, but back then it was the first grafting of a genre name onto the Hero franchise, so at least it had the benefit of novelty at the start. But then came Star Hero, followed by Ninja Hero and Horror Hero, and it did start to feel repetitive. Of course, I completely understand the rationale of reinforcing the concept that the HERO System can be tailored for any genre. But I miss the days when Champions was joined on the shelves by Justice, Incorporated and Danger International. Now those were titles with pizzazz! Even if they didn't indicate immediately what the book was about, at least they moved me to want to find out. Ah well, at least we can still look forward to Dark Champions. But I dread the coming of Pulp HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syberdwarf2 Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden But I dread the coming of Pulp HERO. Tropicana HERO...... All of the goodness of regular HERO without the Pulp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Generic System, Generic Names. Personally, I find that wonderfully appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Verbosity Is Hero system 5th edition as bad a SRD or D20 core rulebook? Is spending $30 as bad as buying 3 core rulebooks at 20-30 bucks each plus several other 30 dollar hardbacks of dubious quality? Did the writers of Basic D&D write 3rd edition or did they have to recruit old Hero writers to fix their game? Why the original text (Fantasy Hero etc) came out there was a trend in gaming to sell systems. Remember Claw Law, Spell Law, Arms Law? There was also Gurps this and Gurps that. Hero was in many ways following a SYSTEM trend that was very en vouge in the 80's. We old timers look on these names with nostalgia just like Dungeons and Dragons, Tunnels and Trolls, and Villans and Vigilantes. . .Get the pattern? What you see as novel, may just be old hat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroooo Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Opinions I try to stay out of conversations like these, since they are mainly opinions and not facts. But I have to add this to the conversation: GURPS Basic Set, 3rd Edition GURPS Horror GURPS Space GURPS Magic GURPS Mecha etc. etc. etc... Same theme as Star Hero, Fantasy Hero, etc... Immaginative or not, leave it up to the informed consumer. But it is up to the gaming companies to make sure the dealers know about their product, get their product, and display their product. I won't mention the store chain by name, but it took 4-5 months for one of the FLGS in my area to get Hero, despite the fact that employees knew it was out (and that trend continues with the rest of the DOJ line). Their parent corporation (so the conspiracy theory goes) held off ordering it so they could push their own products. Aroooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroooo Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Ah well, at least we can still look forward to Dark Champions. But I dread the coming of Pulp HERO. [/b] Why? Because of a name, or is it just not your cup of tea? Personally, Pulp is one of my vavorites, and I can't wait for PH. (Okay, I'll admit to missing the name Justice Inc., but I'll get over that.) Aroooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Aroooo Why? Because of a name, or is it just not your cup of tea? Personally, Pulp is one of my vavorites, and I can't wait for PH. (Okay, I'll admit to missing the name Justice Inc., but I'll get over that.) Aroooo Yep, it's the name that gets to me. The pulp era produced some wonderful fiction, and Justice Inc was an exceptional game book. It's just that Pulp HERO sounds incredibly bland to me; makes me think of some guy working in a lumber mill, which may be a great job but not one I personally would seek to roleplay. I readily acknowledge that this is a matter of personal taste. As the above examples point out, there are plenty of "generic" names for books that sell well, so this may very well be smart marketting strategy on DoJ's part. And as I said, I think Star HERO is actually a pretty snappy name. For my part, I just like game names that have style and impact in and of themselves, without necessarily tying in to a game line. And Hero Games already has a really good one in JI that I would hate to see disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden But I dread the coming of Pulp HERO. You're probably thinking of Pulped Hero, aka Seeker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroooo Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Yep, it's the name that gets to me. The pulp era produced some wonderful fiction, and Justice Inc was an exceptional game book. It's just that Pulp HERO sounds incredibly bland to me; makes me think of some guy working in a lumber mill, which may be a great job but not one I personally would seek to roleplay. I readily acknowledge that this is a matter of personal taste. As the above examples point out, there are plenty of "generic" names for books that sell well, so this may very well be smart marketting strategy on DoJ's part. And as I said, I think Star HERO is actually a pretty snappy name. For my part, I just like game names that have style and impact in and of themselves, without necessarily tying in to a game line. And Hero Games already has a really good one in JI that I would hate to see disappear. Since I know what Pulp Hero will be, I'll buy it. But I sure wish it were called Justice Inc. instead. You're right, there is a lot to be said for a name... Even GURPS broke from 'tradition' and called it GURPS Cliffhangers. But as i understand it, the jurry is still out on its official name; or am I mistaken? Steve? Aroooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheImperialKhan Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Aroooo Since I know what Pulp Hero will be, I'll buy it. But I sure wish it were called Justice Inc. instead. You're right, there is a lot to be said for a name... Even GURPS broke from 'tradition' and called it GURPS Cliffhangers. But as i understand it, the jurry is still out on its official name; or am I mistaken? Steve? Aroooo I don't think that anything has been chisled into stone yet, but the lettering seems to have already been traced on it. None the less I have to agree with Aroooo and Lord Liaden on this one. I also prefer the title Justice Inc. If it must be tied to the system why not employ a sub-title. Something like For the HERO System or The HERO System game of two-fisted action in the Pulp era. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonol Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Aroooo Since I know what Pulp Hero will be, I'll buy it. But I sure wish it were called Justice Inc. instead. You're right, there is a lot to be said for a name... Even GURPS broke from 'tradition' and called it GURPS Cliffhangers. But as i understand it, the jurry is still out on its official name; or am I mistaken? Steve? Aroooo I like the scheme of "X HERO"; I'm sure it builds brand identity, and anybody who has purchased one HERO book will possibly notice another partly because of the consistent titling. However, I do think "Pulp Hero" is a terrible name. Call it "Two-Fisted Hero" to punch it up a bit (pun intended :-). Nearly anything would be more dynamic than 'Pulp.' BTW, hello all; been lurking for a while, and this is my first post. -Toonol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroooo Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by TheImperialKhan I don't think that anything has been chisled into stone yet, but the lettering seems to have already been traced on it. None the less I have to agree with Aroooo and Lord Liaden on this one. I also prefer the title Justice Inc. If it must be tied to the system why not employ a sub-title. Something like For the HERO System or The HERO System game of two-fisted action in the Pulp era. Just a thought. Its been a while since I looked at the schedule, but from the established trend, wouldn't Pulp Hero be the rules guidleines (aka Star Hero), and Justice Inc be the background book on 30's comic pulp - possibly the Champions universe opposite of where Terran Empire is today? But as I was typing this I was about to say Ninja Hero, but then I remembered that Ninja Hero from 4th Ed. is now The Ultimate Martial Artist, and Ninja Hero is more a campaign book. So maybe there is a bit of precedence for Justice Inc = Setting Book, and Pulp Hero be the campaign book (if they don't kill 2 birds with one stone). Or how about: Mad Scientist Hero Justice Hero Cliffhanger Hero (Steve Jackson would have a cow) Porn Hero (just ckecking if you're still reading ) Cinema Hero Okay, I just realized I'm rambling... I'm going home now... Sorry. Aroooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verbosity Posted March 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 None the less I have to agree with Aroooo and Lord Liaden on this one. I also prefer the title Justice Inc. If it must be tied to the system why not employ a sub-title. Something like For the HERO System or The HERO System game of two-fisted action in the Pulp era. Well said. I think that's the way to go too. I like the scheme of "X HERO"; I'm sure it builds brand identity, and anybody who has purchased one HERO book will possibly notice another partly because of the consistent titling. I am sure you are correct, but I think there are better ways to do it. Lastly, a funny idea hit me as I was reading through some of the posts. Being that we're discussing the idea of "X HERO" titles, how about we throw out a top 10 list of the most absurd / cheezy / unusable "X HERO" titles possible? I'll start: - "Sombrero HERO" : Cross that border by dawn, then marry quick or tend the lawn. In this four color adventure, Green is the only color that matters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoth Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by verbosity Lastly, a funny idea hit me as I was reading through some of the posts. Being that we're discussing the idea of "X HERO" titles, how about we throw out a top 10 list of the most absurd / cheezy / unusable "X HERO" titles possible? I'll start: hehe ok sounds fun Outlaw Hero Renegade Hero Animal Hero Fornicating Hero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosliege Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 How bout French Hero: We don't fight, we just switch sides a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syberdwarf2 Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by Chaosliege How bout French Hero: We don't fight, we just switch sides a lot. The first supplement for French HERO could be; Chemical and Biological HERO.... Sissies Switch Sides (a Dork Champions Supplement for French HERO).... NIMBY HERO.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoth Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 hehe I got a good one Conspiracy Hero - Please Steve call this one Hero System Black OPs or something like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelijal Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Books and their covers... With all due respect, I was stunned by the--IMHO--pointless subject of this thread. But then, I'm one who rarely buys anything without research, so judging the books by their covers doesn't even occur to me. And, I have no empathy for anyone who lets such things determine their purchases. A non-issue--IMHO. As with the previously mentioned GURPS and RoleMaster series, I see continuity, not a lack of imagination, in such titles. Both the title and the understated cover of FREd appeal to me, similar to the original Traveller books--I like the HERO 5e cover much better than 4e. But, enough of that crap (opinions and a$$holes, y'know). HERO titles that might not sell so well? How about Pimp HERO, Crack Ho' HERO, Heroin HERO, Homeless HERO, Cancer HERO, HIV-Positive HERO, Southern Baptist HERO, Jehovah's Witness HERO, Michael Jackson HERO, Catholic Priest HERO, Jeffrey Dahmer HERO, Buchenwald HERO, or Khmer Rouge HERO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoth Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by Nelijal HERO titles that might not sell so well? How about Pimp HERO, Crack Ho' HERO, Heroin HERO, Homeless HERO, Cancer HERO, HIV-Positive HERO, Southern Baptist HERO, Jehovah's Witness HERO, Michael Jackson HERO, Catholic Priest HERO, Jeffrey Dahmer HERO, Buchenwald HERO, or Khmer Rouge HERO? you forgot Anal-retentive Hero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syberdwarf2 Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Viagra HERO!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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