Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

[Brett]

In real life, there are many reasons to use an object to attack someone rather than your fists: it is more intimidating, probably gives more reach, decreases the chances the attacker will hurt himself, and most importantly, it should do more damage.

 

Without any reference with me, I would say that these are covered somewhere in the rules. Walking menacingly towards someone with a heavy metal pipe could be a Presence attack. There are some optional rules about weapons with reach or combatants with different sized weapons. There are no rules for hurting yourself because it would be dull and burdensome to have to determine if you broke a finger every time you punch a bad guy.

 

What has bothered me, however, is damage. The rules generally say, if I am correct, that an someone attacking with an object can do his damage class in STR or a damage class equal to the object's BODY + DEF, whichever is less.

 

So, what is the point of attacking with objects? The damage will be the same.

 

The rules allude to other advantages, but I have seen no specific rules for these. I was surprised that The Ultimate Brick did not have advanced rules for attacking with cars and buildings. (I sure would feel dumb if it were there and I just overlooked it. I've only skimmed the book.)

 

The obvious advantage is that a melee combatant can pick something up and throw it. Therefore, Bricks can toss boulders at enemies that are flying or out of reach.

 

Also a character may be able to use a sharp object to make normal strength damage into killing damage.

 

It is implied that a Brick can swing a telephone pole or some such object as an Area of Effect attack. However, there are no rules to say how big the object has to be or how much of an area is affected.

 

Furthermore, why does the Brick not have to pay points for such abilities? The Superpowers Database and Ultimate Brick have characters paying for different area of effect, armor piercing, etc... attacks even though the attacks are uses of Strength or Telekinesis combined with objects of opportunity.

 

Getting area of effect, killing damage, and ranged attacks would be worth a strong attacker taking a damage penalty by using a weaker (BODY + DEF) object to attack. But what about a weaker attacker using a rock or a two by four to attack someone? The obvious intent is to do more damage.

 

I was wondering if anybody had any house rules or suggestions on how to deal with these issues?

 

Brett

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Well, first note that doing more damage than you otherwise could with an object is usually limited to normals. Supers tend to exceed the damage capabilities of your average chair very easily.

 

AoE objects - count as an AoE attack when the object's size covers one or more hexes. A chair does not cover an entire hex and therefore should not be allowed to do an AoE attack, cars on the other hand cover at least two hexes and can do AoE. What is and isn't going to let you do an AoE with it is up to the GM and dramatic liscense.

 

Lastly - I don't own TUB yet but I would say off the top of my head that the brick is not paying for such abilities because anyone can use them - not just a "brick". Anyone can pick up a car (should they have sufficient strength) and use it to smack an entire hex or two. It was simply put in TUB since those are generally "brick type" tactics.

 

Making characters pay points for certain things they could logically do (Like having enough STR to lift and toss a car into a hex) can get out of hand quickly.

[JJR]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Our rule is that any object used grants haymaker damage without requireing the extra segment to use. The object will give benefits based on size. Throwing a car will grant area of effect, for example. We do not use the defense plus body rules in 5th edition because they do not seem to follow the spirit of the comic books when a brick uses an object.

 

For heroic games I believe it is better to just treat most used objects as small, medium, or large clubs, or to convert the entire attack into killing damage.

 

There are also many of us who do not believe a brick should need to pay points to tie someone with a lightpole. Some brick tricks like armor piercing are ok, but when using outside objects that should be availabe to anyone. If a brick is strong enough to bend a lightpole he should be able to bend it around someone without paying points just as a normal might bend a tree limb to tie someone up.

[Brett]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

There are also many of us who do not believe a brick should need to pay points to tie someone with a lightpole. Some brick tricks like armor piercing are ok' date=' but when using outside objects that should be availabe to anyone. If a brick is strong enough to bend a lightpole he should be able to bend it around someone without paying points just as a normal might bend a tree limb to tie someone up.[/quote']

The Big Wrap Up from TUB is an Entangle power representing this, and it costs 20 points. TUB may have information for putting STR powers such as these in a multipower to reduce the costs, but I've only skimmed the book.

 

This raises the issue of whether or not superhuman STR is too powerful for the price if the character can use objects of opportunity for ranged, AoE, entangle, and other attack advantages. It is, of course, up to the GM, but may depend on how often the character uses the ability.

 

By the way, is grabbing these objects of opportunity considered an action?

 

Brett

[JJR]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

The Big Wrap Up from TUB is an Entangle power representing this' date=' and it costs 20 points. TUB may have information for putting STR powers such as these in a multipower to reduce the costs, but I've only skimmed the book.[/quote']

It is in the USPD too. It just seems stupid to say that Ogre can wrap you with a lightpole but Durak cannot because he purchased and Entangle. To me it should just be a standard brick maneuver requiring a brick trick skill roll. No point expendature required.

 

This raises the issue of whether or not superhuman STR is too powerful for the price if the character can use objects of opportunity for ranged, AoE, entangle, and other attack advantages. It is, of course, up to the GM, but may depend on how often the character uses the ability.

Normal humans and non-bricks can also throw things. They just throw smaller things. A 25 strength character using our rules can throw a chair for 9d6. A 60 strength brick can throw a chair for 16d6. The difference is just the strength. The chair always does the same additional damage. So I do not think strength is too powerful.

 

By the way, is grabbing these objects of opportunity considered an action?

Most of them require a half-phase action. So you cannot run to a lightpole, rip it up, and throw it. That would be 3 half-phase actions.

[fbdaury]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Just to point out one thing that I think you may have misunderstood Brett, that damage done with the object is in ADDITION to the character's normal strength damage- so hitting someone with a car is going to do more damage than punching them, plus you can hit everyone in a hex. This damage tops out at (def+body) of object in extra dice, or twice the user's strength, whichever is less, I think...

THe advantage to buying the Big Wrap up or Thrown Object powers with points is the fact that there are far fewer penalities to the bought version- you don't have to use up one phase worth of strength to yank a lighpole out of the ground to wrap someone up with it if you have paid for the power- that 's considered a free time side effect of the power. As well, throwing a car at someone will incur harsh aerodynamic penalties to hit, unless you but it as AE:1 hex ranged attack, giving you the base chance to hit without penalty... seems like a mild trade off to me.

[Brett]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Just to point out one thing that I think you may have misunderstood Brett' date=' that damage done with the object is in ADDITION to the character's normal strength damage- so hitting someone with a car is going to do more damage than punching them, plus you can hit everyone in a hex. This damage tops out at (def+body) of object in extra dice, or twice the user's strength, whichever is less, I think...[/quote']

That's what you would think. I was not totally certain when I first posted this, but now I've checked the book and the FAQ. Damage is calculate as I stated. Here is the quote from the FAQ:

 

Q: If a character uses an object to hit another character, does the DEF+BODY of the object add to the character’s STR for purposes of causing damage?

A: No. As noted on 5E 303, the DEF + BODY is the maximum a character can do with an object. If his STR is over that, he’s limited to DEF + BODY, if his STR is less than that, he does his STR damage.

So there is no extra damage according to the official rules when the DEF + BODY is greater than the STR. I would think that if you are not getting some other bonus such as range, AoE, etc... the attacker should get some Hand Attack bonus (perhaps 1/2 of the DEF in d6's up to +4d6.)

 

Brett

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

To me, bashing someone with a big, hard object should do more damage, and hang the printed rules.

 

There should be some limits, however. For starters, I would generally say 2d6 is lots of added damage (that's 4x the force based on the logarithmic scale of "one doubling adds 1d6"), and 4d6 should be truly exceptional. I'm inclined to base this in some fashion on the hardness and mass of the object. I haven't got any specific parameters.

 

Second, I am inclined to maintain the max STR add at DEF + BOD of the object. This means it takes a truly massive object to actually add damage to a powerful Brick. A baseball bat breaks under the force of his STR, and can't deliver all that energy to the target.

 

Third, if you paid no points, the object is treated as a "weapon". Unless you have "WF: Bus" that means -3 OCV when you swing a bus. If you paid for a "brick trick" with weapons of opportunity, you paid points for the "weapon" and are familiar automatically.

 

Fourth, any use of objects should require that 1/2 phase to grab, 1/2 phase to uproot (and this is an attack action) and now you can use it as a weapon.

 

Fifth, it would seem reasonable to apply "encumbrance penalties" for characters manipulating a large object. Combine that with the need for a truly large object to enhance a strong Brick, and this can provide some tradeoff - enhance one ability at the expense of others.

 

Allowing surrounding terrain to convert STR to ranged AoE attacks at limited or no penalties (even if one does not allow added damage) seems, to me, to over-reward high STR. Meanwhile, saying a 10 STR mentalist can't enhance HTH damage by picking up a baseball bat or crowbar just bugs me.

[Zed-F]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Heroic: Not really an issue. You can treat common objects like clubs, or what have you, potentially with an OCV penalty if they are really awkward to use. Note that you can easily approach or even exceed 12 DCs with regular weapons and martial arts, even with NCM STR, if the GM will let you. This is also a staple for building low-powered supers.

 

Superheroic: Lesser of STR or DEF+BOD is a good rule, given that most bricks will break whatever they are hitting with before doing as much damage as they can. I would be ok with lesser of STR+2d6 or DEF+BOD, with OCV penalties and time to acquire weapon taken into consideration. If using standard FREd/FAQ rules I might be more inclined to handwave (or even waive entirely) OCV and weapon acquisition tradeoffs, depending on circumstances. I certainly would not give a blanket free haymaker.

[pinecone]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Yes it does depend on the game...in Heroic I call stuff a "club" and give a penalty if it's real unusual....in superheroic it's a "prop"....it does nothing if you want to swing a bus like a bat I'll give a bonus to damage (say 1-2 D6 at most) but give a penalty to hit..."He drops to the ground then stands up and ridicules you as the bus whizes over him".....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

It occurs to me that when we think about this stuff, we should assume Heroic by default, and let Superheroic be the exception. We should start with rules that reflect the real world as much as possible (as much as practical), and then drop some of those rules as necessary for particular genres.

 

In the real world, I don't have great strength or any fighting skills to speak of. Even if we assume I have a 10 STR, that means I do 2d6 HTH. And I gaurantee I'll do more damage if I'm weilding a baseball bat or a crowbar. I am probably more likely to connect as well, because the swing of a bat simply covers more space than my fist, even though it's not an Area Effect attack.

 

Off the top of my head, I'd say that an object adds damage based on its DEF, since DEF generally represents the objects hardness. A big cardboard box may have the same total DEF+BODY as the baseball bat, but I'd much rather be hit by the cardboard. The objects mass is represented (at least sort-of) by its BODY. Perhaps therefore, the BODY should count *against* the attack - that is the additional damage from the character's STR. If it takes all of my strength just to pick the thing up, I'm not going to be able to swing it very hard.

 

Another issue that's always bugged me is Knockback. As the rules stand, KB is solely based on damage done, and the nature of the attack has no bearing on it. But if I swing a king-size mattress at you, you'll probably be knocked back (or at least knocked down), even though it will probably do very little damage, no matter how strong I am (assuming there aren't any metal springs sticking out).

 

I love the HERO System, and I think the character creation part is nearly perfect, with all its powers/skills/modifiers/etc. The part that needs the most work is the interaction between people and things rules: doing damage to objects and with objects, being knocked into obects, objects falling on you, you falling on objects. IMHO, this is the area to work on for the eventual 6th edition. Probably no point in wishing that it could be done in FREdRIC.

 

The good news is, we can make modifications in this area without having to throw out all the other rules and redesign all the characters!

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

To me, bashing someone with a big, hard object should do more damage, and hang the printed rules.

 

Second, I am inclined to maintain the max STR add at DEF + BOD of the object. This means it takes a truly massive object to actually add damage to a powerful Brick. A baseball bat breaks under the force of his STR, and can't deliver all that energy to the target.

 

Am I reading correctly, that you suggested that an item can do up to its DEF + BOD in damage, but if the character's strength exceeds this...then the item breaks.

 

Third, if you paid no points, the object is treated as a "weapon". Unless you have "WF: Bus" that means -3 OCV when you swing a bus. If you paid for a "brick trick" with weapons of opportunity, you paid points for the "weapon" and are familiar automatically.

 

Don't forget -4 for throwing a bulky and non-aerodynamic object if the character chooses that route.

 

Fourth, any use of objects should require that 1/2 phase to grab, 1/2 phase to uproot (and this is an attack action) and now you can use it as a weapon.

 

I like this. What about packing crates and buses that don't need to be uprooted? Still, 1/2 to grab and 1/2 to lift?

 

Fifth, it would seem reasonable to apply "encumbrance penalties" for characters manipulating a large object. Combine that with the need for a truly large object to enhance a strong Brick, and this can provide some tradeoff - enhance one ability at the expense of others.

 

Allowing surrounding terrain to convert STR to ranged AoE attacks at limited or no penalties (even if one does not allow added damage) seems, to me, to over-reward high STR. Meanwhile, saying a 10 STR mentalist can't enhance HTH damage by picking up a baseball bat or crowbar just bugs me.

 

I agree with this. But as an addendum, I tell all players regardless of strength that if they routinely grab objects of opportunity for use as weapons I will require them to pay points as a game balance measure.

[JamesG]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

To me' date=' bashing someone with a big, hard object should do more damage, and hang the printed rules.[/quote']

 

I agree, but have some quibbles with other points.

 

 

Third, if you paid no points, the object is treated as a "weapon". Unless you have "WF: Bus" that means -3 OCV when you swing a bus. If you paid for a "brick trick" with weapons of opportunity, you paid points for the "weapon" and are familiar automatically.

 

Debatable. UMA page 115: "Non-Weapon Weapons are all considered Clubs.... and everyone automatically has Weapons Familiarity with Clubs."

 

Now this was written with "normal strength" characters using bookcases or sawhorses as weapons in mind, but it seems logical to extend to a Brick wielding a telephone pole or school bus.

 

Fourth, any use of objects should require that 1/2 phase to grab, 1/2 phase to uproot (and this is an attack action) and now you can use it as a weapon.

 

Again somewhat debatable. The sections on using Characters as Weapons in both Champions and The Ultimate Brick state that the Grabber can use the Grabbee as club/missile against another character in the same phase as the initial Grab is made.

 

Now, I personally feel this is bit much, and it does not specify what happens if the character needs to use his STR to "uproot" something. I would propose these house rules to tone down and clarify this.

 

If a character wants to make an attack with a grabbed object/character in the same phase as the initial grab was made, he can, but he attacks at 0 OCV if any of the following conditions are met:

• He needed to use STR to uproot or break off the object, such as snapping off a lightpole.
  
• He needed to make a normal attack roll to make the Grab. Typically this will only apply when grabbing another conscious character or a moving vehicle.
  
• He needs to use more than his casual STR to lift the object.
  

 

If none of those conditions are met, he can make an attack at normal OCV, but don't forget Grab itself is -1 OCV / -2 DCV maneuver. (Though the Grab CV penalties should be waived if the object is small/light enough, in the interest in common sense.)

 

Allowing surrounding terrain to convert STR to ranged AoE attacks at limited or no penalties (even if one does not allow added damage) seems, to me, to over-reward high STR. Meanwhile, saying a 10 STR mentalist can't enhance HTH damage by picking up a baseball bat or crowbar just bugs me.

 

Agreed. One way to make a Brick's AoE attacks with objects of opportunity less powerful is to use an option mentioned in the Weapon Size/Shape rules in FRED. Instead of attacking a DCV 3, the attacker gets an OCV bonus based on the size of the weapon

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Yes, I'm quoting myself, to facilitate answers to Sleepydrug ("SD") and Jamesg's ("JG") comments.

 

Second' date=' I am inclined to maintain the max STR add at DEF + BOD of the object. This means it takes a truly massive object to actually add damage to a powerful Brick. A baseball bat breaks under the force of his STR, and can't deliver all that energy to the target.[/quote']

 

SD: To clarify, I am suggesting the maximum damage any object can deliver is equal to its DEF + BOD, plus the "damage bonus" applied due to the object's hardness. An attempt to inflict greater STR added damage will break the object, as well as inflicting only the limited damage.

 

For example, let's assume we decide that an object has 6 DEF and 4 BOD, and adds 2d6 damage. If a normal human swings it, it will do 2d6 (10 STR) + 2d6 (object bonus). If Grond swings it at 90 STR, it will do the lesser of 18d6 (STR) amnd 10d6 (DEF + BOD), so 10d6, plus its 2d6 object bonus = 12d6. And the force of a 90 STR swong will break it. Swung at 50 STR, it will still do 12d6 - this is the optimal swing.

 

Common/dramatic sense should be applied - a 1 DEF 40 BOD giant pillow should not add damage.

 

[i suppose we could instead apply a STR min, as in a heroic campaign weapon, increase the base object damage and only add STR for STR in excess of STR min, cap at 2x base damage, etc. but I don't want to address the added complexity in a Supers game, and there should still be a point where the object breaks]

 

Third' date=' if you paid no points, the object is treated as a "weapon". Unless you have "WF: Bus" that means -3 OCV when you swing a bus. If you paid for a "brick trick" with weapons of opportunity, you paid points for the "weapon" and are familiar automatically.[/quote']

 

SD: The non-proficiency penalty would stack in my mechanics, so you would be at -7 OCV throwing a bulky, non-aerodynamic object with which you lack weapon familiarity. Range penalties could further reduce OCV. Similarly, a Fantasy character firing a bow which imposes a -1 OCV base, at 12" range, would be at OCV -8 (-3 nonfamiliarity; -1 the inherent inaccuracy of this bow, -4 range).

 

JG: I would waive the penalty for objects which are "similar to" clubs. These would need to fit the size constraint (a light pole is too unweildy, despite being the right shape - try swinging a 10' curtain rod), and approximate shape (chairs and bookcases aren't even close). Size consreaint is comparative to the size of a character with growth or shrinking (eg. with 3 levels growth, a 10' object vould make a fine club).

 

Fourth' date=' any use of objects should require that 1/2 phase to grab, 1/2 phase to uproot (and this is an attack action) and now you can use it as a weapon.[/quote']

 

SD: I hadn't considered items that don't need to be uprooted. I'm inclined to say no cost if your casual STR could lift it, but 1/2 phase if you need more than casual STR, since we have no mechanic for "trying and failing" to lift an object that's heavy, but within your STR.

 

JG: While technically those rules deal only with grabbing **characters**, I think we should dovetail them for consistency. First, I pulled this from the FAQ:

 

Q: Can a character make a Half Move, Grab an object, and then Throw that object at another character, and if so what rolls are required?

 

A: He can make the Half Move, and he can Grab and Throw the object. However, since the Grab and Throw require an Attack Action, that’s going to end his Phase. He can’t make a second attack by throwing the object at someone — he can only throw the object not as an attack, to damage it itself.

 

The character must make an Attack Roll to hit the object, which has a DCV based on its size (5E 252). Standard modifiers, like the Range Modifier, apply.

 

The GM may make an exception to this rule if he wishes, but doing so may make Grab And Throw a far too attractive tactic for some characters. In this case, the character has to make a second Attack Roll against the target at whom he’s throwing the object.

 

I think this is a bit more appropriate - if you want to Throw on the same phase, you can't throw as an attack. I'm inclined to fine tune my initial comments based on yours, however, and say that:

 

(a) A half phase to Grab is required only if an attack roll is required for the Grab (eg. resisting characters, moving vehicles). Such an attack action also ends the grabber's phase (though he can still squeeze, or throw with no attack, if the Grab succeeds)

 

( Casual STR can be applied as a zero phase to break the object loose, uproot it or lift it. Otherwise, a half phase is required.

 

© Throwing or attacking with the object is a half phase atack action. [Consideration could be given to making attacks with objects requiring more than casual SR to lift a full phase action, but let's leave matters as above and see how it works].

 

JG: Finally, also noted in the FAQ, the DCV penalty changes from -2 DCV to 1/2 DCV if the grab has succeeded. This is in the text of the Grab maneuver, but isn't clear that it supersedes the -2 if the Grab is successful. I would suggest the OCV/DCV penalty applies only if the object Grabbed either requires an attack roll to be grabbed (a struggling character; a vehicle which is still trying to move) or requires more than casual STR to lift.

 

SD: re paying points - I'm not sure whether I'd agree or disagree at this point. I think if we impose penalties as per the above, players may be motivated to buy the powers in any case. They get out of the -3 nonproficiency penalty, avoid the multiple half phases and two attack actions, and potentially eliminate the balanced/aerodynamic penalties. Of course, how muich of the above you choose to implement would impact the benefits of paying for this as a power, so YMMV.

 

BOTH: Thanks for some great comments, guys. I need to remember to summarize this thread when it's over with so I have these comments for my campaign in future.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

For example, let's assume we decide that an object has 6 DEF and 4 BOD, and adds 2d6 damage. If a normal human swings it, it will do 2d6 (10 STR) + 2d6 (object bonus). If Grond swings it at 90 STR, it will do the lesser of 18d6 (STR) amnd 10d6 (DEF + BOD), so 10d6, plus its 2d6 object bonus = 12d6. And the force of a 90 STR swong will break it. Swung at 50 STR, it will still do 12d6 - this is the optimal swing.

 

right...and where does the 2d6 come from? is it a GM freebie?

 

SD: re paying points - I'm not sure whether I'd agree or disagree at this point.

 

One of my players has a habit (with several of his characters) of stealing other people's foci or grabbing items of opportunity (guns, bats, chairs, cars) and so I need to consider that.

 

Thanks for some great comments, guys. I need to remember to summarize this thread when it's over with so I have these comments for my campaign in future.

 

You going to post the summarized version so we can save ourselves the work?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

right...and where does the 2d6 come from? is it a GM freebie?

 

You may have noted my example deliberately leaves out the identity of the object to discuss theory. I haven't considered how to assess added dice of damage for the object, but I'm almost inclined to use a "how hard is it" and "how tough would it be to swing on a target" matrix to get a range of, say, no bonus to +2d6 or +3d6. That 4x or 8x the "concussive force" in Hero terms, which seems a pretty good bonus - any more would clearly be excessive and I'm leaning to a 2d6 cap.

 

Anyone else have any great ideas for assessing the magnitude of any bonus?

 

One of my players has a habit (with several of his characters) of stealing other people's foci or grabbing items of opportunity (guns' date=' bats, chairs, cars) and so I need to consider that.[/quote']

 

To me, that makes having some fixed rules in place very important. Using others' foci, I would certainly look at the -3 non proficiency penalty. I might also assign an RSR or activation roll for unusual foci (eg. how do you know how to operate Dr. Chill's Freeze Ring? It's not a gun with a trigger!). For items "storing" a multipower, iut may be tough to choose slots. [Huntsman knows what each arrow in his quiver does by placement. You do not.]

 

To me, a set of rules for using foci and objects of opportunity resolves the matter, with one exception. If the character wants to keep the stolen foci, or object of opportunity (ie carry it with him, not pick it up, use it and drop it by the end of the scene), he has to pay the points for it. Perhaps he might buy a gadget pool to "hold" all his trophy weapons, or maybe he buys each individually to ensure he always has access to them. If he wants, he can even put limitations (RSR, Activate, reduced OCV, etc.) and slowly buy them off to simulate gradually learning how to use the focus properly. That will reduce the initial xp requirement, but also the reliability of the item while he learns to use it. You may want to require some stolen items also be "independent", given the character would have a tough time getting them back. He may think twice about investing xp in something he may lose forever.

 

Most importantly, it ensures the rules for the player are also the rules for the NPC - and if this guy's carrying around half a dozen foci, the opposition definitely has the opportunity to use these rules.

 

You going to post the summarized version so we can save ourselves the work?

 

If I ever write it. Maybe someone else will do the work and post it first

[logomancer]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

It is in the USPD too. It just seems stupid to say that Ogre can wrap you with a lightpole but Durak cannot because he purchased and Entangle. To me it should just be a standard brick maneuver requiring a brick trick skill roll. No point expendature required.

 

I agree to a point. If you have the strength to tie someone up with a lightpole, you should be allowed to do it without character point expenditure. However, it would take time (and a "reasonably cooperative" person being tied up). If Ogre wanted to tie a hero up with a light pole, the guy would have to cooperate or someone would have to hold him, or whatever while he did it.

 

The character point expenditure would be required to do it as an attack, i.e., happens in 1/2 a second without consent and bam! you're stuck in a lightpole. The fact that there's a character point expenditure is that it's a practiced move that you can repeat as often as you want.

 

Anyone can punch another guy. But to use your fists as effective weapons (i.e., martial arts), you have to expend character points to buy that ability to represent your training. To me, this isn't much different.

[JamesG]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Hugh , after I posted, I thought of a few modifications to my proposal, but you beat me to it. But before I go into that, I’d like to elaborate on an area we disagree.

 

I would waive the penalty for objects which are "similar to" clubs. These would need to fit the size constraint (a light pole is too unwieldy, despite being the right shape - try swinging a 10' curtain rod), and approximate shape (chairs and bookcases aren't even close).

 

Do I take this to mean that you would not count the use a chair or bookcase as a “club†for purposes of the free weapons proficiency everyone has with “Clubs� Just want to point out that is definitely a house rule, as it is the exact opposite of what the rules in the UMA specify.

 

Admittedly, it’s less clear if that rule would also apply to light poles and buses wielded by Bricks. But it seems to me that the spirit of that UMA rule is that any simple object a character is using to bash someone over the head with counts as a “club†for proficiency purposes.

 

Oh, and the free proficiency everyone has with Thrown Rocks extends to “other crude missile weapons†(FREd, pg54) so I would think it applies to a brick tossing a car.

 

First, I pulled this from the FAQ…

That FAQ ruling is interesting. It means it’s actually harder to Grab an inanimate object and throw it someone, than it is to Grab a struggling person and throw them at someone. That seems illogical, but as I said, I think the rules in Champions and TUB for using characters as weapons are too generous in this regard. Might post a question to Steve later to clarify.

 

But in any case, I totally agree with your ideas here:

(a) A half phase to Grab is required only if an attack roll is required for the Grab (eg. resisting characters, moving vehicles). Such an attack action also ends the grabber's phase (though he can still squeeze, or throw with no attack, if the Grab succeeds)

 

( Casual STR can be applied as a zero phase to break the object loose, uproot it or lift it. Otherwise, a half phase is required.

 

© Throwing or attacking with the object is a half phase attack action

 

JG: Finally, also noted in the FAQ, the DCV penalty changes from -2 DCV to 1/2 DCV if the grab has succeeded. This is in the text of the Grab maneuver, but isn't clear that it supersedes the -2 if the Grab is successful. I would suggest the OCV/DCV penalty applies only if the object Grabbed either requires an attack roll to be grabbed (a struggling character; a vehicle which is still trying to move) or requires more than casual STR to lift.

I hadn’t mentioned the ½ DCV “maintaining a Grab†penalties in my original post, because I didn’t think it applied in this situation. I thought about it some more and had decided to base its applicability on how heavy the object is, but you beat me to the punch with your post. I’d codify this as:

 

 

(d) If the character can lift the object with casual STR, he only suffers the normal CV penalties for the Grab maneuver while holding the object (-1 OCV, -2 DCV for regular Grab, Martial Grabs may differ). If the character needs to use more than Casual STR to lift the object, or the object required an attack roll as in (a), then he suffers the more restrictive “maintaining a grab†penalties (1/2 DCV, ½ OCV to attack other targets, full OCV to attack grabbee).

 

Of course, for small and light objects, there are no CV penalties for grabbing/holding it. Common sense can rule here, but if an actual value is needed, anything that can be lifted with (Casual STR)-10 might be good rule of thumb.

 

In regards to how much “bonus damage†to give objects of opportunity, I suggest this. The number of bonus dice equals the (DEF+(1 per 10 BODY))/2. Subject to these details:

(1) No more than +4d6 bonus dice. (This is more than Hugh suggests, and can obviously be lowered. I choose 4d6 since it matches up with the bonus from a Haymaker).

(2) The maximum STR+bonus dice equals normal STR dice x 1 ½.

(3) The maximum d6 an object can produce without automatically breaking is its DEF+BODY. It can generate up to DEF+BODY+bonus, but if the bonus is used the item automatically breaks.

(4) Even if the item does not automatically break, it still takes the same damage as it generates. If the attack produces no knockback, the object takes 1 1/2 times damage. The 1 ½ times damage also applies if the object is used to drive someone straight into the ground.

(5) END cost is +1 END per 2 bonus dice.

 

Some examples to illustrate.

 

• STR 10 character hits someone with a DEF 3 BODY 3 bar stool. The stool normally generates (3+1)/2=+2d6 bonus dice. But it only generates +1d6 in this case because 1 ½ times the characters normal STR damage of 2d6 is 3d6. A 15 STR character could get 1 1/6 d6 bonus dice for a total of 4 ¼ d6 and a STR 20 character could get the full +2d6 for a total of 6d6 (which is also the maximum the stool could generate without automatically breaking). A 25 STR character could generate 7d6 and a 30 STR character could generate the absolute max of 8d6, though again anything over 6d6 will automatically break the stool. A character of greater than 40 STR using the stool as a weapon will always do less damage than they could with a straight punch, but they still may have a reason to use it from time to time such as to avoid a damage shield. [edited to correct a math error and expand the STR examples][edit 2 - DOH! It was right the first time, edited it back to correctness]
  
• STR 60 character using a DEF 5 BODY 8 medium sized tree. Bonus dice equals (5+1)/2=3d6. So the character could attack for up to 12d6+3d6=15d6. But the DEF+BODY of the tree is 13, so if the character chooses to use more than 13d6, the tree will automatically splinter.
  
• STR 50 character using DEF 4 BODY 17 city bus. Bonus dice equal (4+2)=3d6. The character can swing the bus at a full 13d6, since it does not bump up against any of the maxima. Of course, the bus will be destroyed after two hits on average (avg BODY from 13d6=13, 13 minus 4 DEF equals 9 BODY taken per swing on average. 2x9=18, which is more than the 17 BODY of the bus).
  
• STR 50 character using a large vault door (16 DEF 9 BODY). Bonus dice equal (16+1)/2=8 1/2 d6, but 4d6 is the max. So he can swing the door at 14d6. The average hit won’t even damage the door, so he can swing it pretty much all day.
  

[JamesG]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Well said logomancer, I couldn’t agree more, with your entire post. One elaboration:

 

The character point expenditure would be required to do it as an attack, i.e., happens in 1/2 a second without consent and bam! you're stuck in a lightpole. The fact that there's a character point expenditure is that it's a practiced move that you can repeat as often as you want.

 

This concept also applies to using objects of opportunity as weapons. So if a character buys AoE as a Naked Advantage on his STR, with a limitation that it requires appropriate objects of opportunity, the Grabbing of said objects becomes 0 phase and none of the CV penalties of the Grab maneuver apply.

 

Similarly, an AoE EB defined as throwing appropriate objects of opportunity (the “Detroit Missileâ€) would avoid the unbalanced/unaerodynamic penalties as well as the regular Grab restrictions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

Do I take this to mean that you would not count the use a chair or bookcase as a “club†for purposes of the free weapons proficiency everyone has with “Clubs� Just want to point out that is definitely a house rule, as it is the exact opposite of what the rules in the UMA specify.

 

Admittedly, it’s less clear if that rule would also apply to light poles and buses wielded by Bricks. But it seems to me that the spirit of that UMA rule is that any simple object a character is using to bash someone over the head with counts as a “club†for proficiency purposes.

 

Oh, and the free proficiency everyone has with Thrown Rocks extends to “other crude missile weapons†(FREd, pg54) so I would think it applies to a brick tossing a car.

 

Doesn't bother me at all. Treating a boockase or lampost like a baseball bat sits wrong with me, as does treating a hurled buick as a hurled rock.

 

Thinking on it, though, I think I would rephrase the rule as "A character must either have weapon familiarity with any object used as a weapon (whether an "everyman" familiarity like Club or Thrown Rock, a purchased weapon familiarity like "1 Pt: WF: Hurled automobile" or an autonmatic WF from purchasing a power with a focus), or suffer the usual -3 Non Proficiency penalty. For purposes of these rules, any object which is balanced and aerodynamic, and can be lifted with the character's casual STR is considered a "thrown rock". Any object which is reasonably balanced and could readily be swung, is no longer than the character's height and can be lifted with casual STR (such as a baseball bat or a fireplace poker, or even a lamppost for a sufficiently large character) is considered a "club". Items not fitting within these categories do not fall within the "everyman" proficiencies.

 

 

That FAQ ruling is interesting. It means it’s actually harder to Grab an inanimate object and throw it someone' date=' than it is to Grab a struggling person and throw them at someone. That seems illogical, but as I said, I think the rules in [i']Champions[/i] and TUB for using characters as weapons are too generous in this regard. Might post a question to Steve later to clarify.

 

I am more inclined to extend the logic of the FAQ to the use of characters as a weapon. That is, once you Grab that character, you can Squeeze or Throw him for damage, as this is part of the Grab action. However, any other action (including any action which would require a separate attack roll) cannot be undertaken until the character's next phase.

 

(d) If the character can lift the object with casual STR' date=' he only suffers the normal CV penalties for the Grab maneuver while holding the object (-1 OCV, -2 DCV for regular Grab, Martial Grabs may differ). If the character needs to use more than Casual STR to lift the object, or the object required an attack roll as in (a), then he suffers the more restrictive “maintaining a grab†penalties (1/2 DCV, ½ OCV to attack other targets, full OCV to attack grabbee).[/quote']

 

I'm inclined to agree, with one addendum: If the object is reasonably balanced, and can reasonably be held using one hand, the character suffers no CV penalties for holding the object if it can be lifted one-handed with casual STR. Thus, a character grabbing a sword, bat or tire iron would suffer the -1 OCV, -2 DCV penalty in the phase he picks up the object (stooping to pick it up). After this, he could hold it in one hand at no penalty.

 

This is similar to your rule, but eliminates the Casual STR - 10 factor. Isn't there a rule somewhere on 1 handed lifts? If not, there should be.

 

In regards to how much “bonus damage†to give objects of opportunity, I suggest this. The number of bonus dice equals the (DEF+(1 per 10 BODY))/2. Subject to these details:

(1) No more than +4d6 bonus dice. (This is more than Hugh suggests, and can obviously be lowered. I choose 4d6 since it matches up with the bonus from a Haymaker).

(2) The maximum STR+bonus dice equals normal STR dice x 1 ½.

(3) The maximum d6 an object can produce without automatically breaking is its DEF+BODY. It can generate up to DEF+BODY+bonus, but if the bonus is used the item automatically breaks.

(4) Even if the item does not automatically break, it still takes the same damage as it generates. If the attack produces no knockback, the object takes 1 1/2 times damage. The 1 ½ times damage also applies if the object is used to drive someone straight into the ground.

(5) END cost is +1 END per 2 bonus dice.

 

This grants the max to anything 8 DEF or higher, while requiring truly massive BOD to have any impact. Toying with it, what about DEF/3 (normal rounding applies) + BOD/10 (always rounds down)? And the usual caveat about common and dramatic sense (eg. a 40 BOD sack of feathers is not going to add 4d6 damage).

 

(1) The maximum is a matter of taste. +4d6 is no less reasonable than +2 or +3, and provides a bit more range for truly massive objects. Your comment begs the question whether one can haymaker with an object. I would say yes, provided the object can be lifted with casual STR (lower STR implies you're pretty much "giving all you've got" just to use it as a weapon).

 

(2) I would eliminate this restriction. A normal human has STR 8 (1.5 DC) - I would not limit them to 2d6 or 2d6+1. A "str MIN" approach might work, but is probably too cumbersome. hmmm...maybe "If the object exceeds Casual STR lift, reduce the attacker's STR damage by 1d6. If it exceeds 75% of lift capacity, the attacker's STR is reduced by half for damage". But a fairly light object with high DEF should add damage in pretty much anyone's hands.

 

(3),(4) What about just "the weapon takes normal damage from the STR used in the attack, based on the standard effect rules". Thus, 1 BOD per 5 STR rolled. I'm inclined not to include the weapon's bonus damage in the damage to the weapon because this implies the higher DEF of the weapon makes it easier to break. The knockback issue is too much added complexity for the added realism, in my opinion, so I would call it an "optional rule" for lack of a better term.

 

(5) On the one hand, I think an END cost makes sense. On the other hand, that END cost arises from use of STR to hold the object, so contradicts the general rule that STR costs END only once per phase. Also, a lightweight "adamantium" staff (DEF 12+) and a very heavy, lower DEF bus both add 4d6 - why would they both cost the same END?

 

What about applying it with the "Hold rules" we've set out above? If holding the object would cause no DCV penalty, using it costs no END. If you would be -1/-2, it costs 1 END. If you would be at 1/2 DCV, it costs 2 END. Same range, with a different basis?

 

Hmmm...I think we're getting somewhere here!

[JamesG]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

First, let me apologize if I confused anyone following the thread with the editing of one of my examples a couple of posts ago. I had something of a mental meltdown yesterday, and thought I had made a math error. I hadn’t, but when I went to fix it, I introduced one.

It’s all fixed now.

 

Back to the discussion at hand.

 

Doesn't bother me at all. Treating a boockase or lampost like a baseball bat sits wrong with me, as does treating a hurled buick as a hurled rock.

 

Thinking on it, though, I think I would rephrase the rule as "A character must either have weapon familiarity with any object used as a weapon (whether an "everyman" familiarity like Club or Thrown Rock, a purchased weapon familiarity like "1 Pt: WF: Hurled automobile" or an autonmatic WF from purchasing a power with a focus), or suffer the usual -3 Non Proficiency penalty. For purposes of these rules, any object which is balanced and aerodynamic, and can be lifted with the character's casual STR is considered a "thrown rock". Any object which is reasonably balanced and could readily be swung, is no longer than the character's height and can be lifted with casual STR (such as a baseball bat or a fireplace poker, or even a lamppost for a sufficiently large character) is considered a "club". Items not fitting within these categories do not fall within the "everyman" proficiencies.

 

Think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. But, even though I don’t think the Unfamiliar Weapon penalty should apply, I’d certainly be amenable to a Weapon Size/Shape penalty due to unwieldiness, and that would have the benefit of allowing DCV penalties too.

 

How ‘bout this. If the object doesn’t fit within your criteria for a “thrown rockâ€/â€club†as described above, but can be lifted with Casual STR, the character suffers a -1 OCV, -1 DCV Weapon Size/Shape penalty. If the object weighs more than can be lifted with Casual STR, the penalties increase to -2 OCV, -2 DCV. If an object is particularly unbalanced and/or unwieldy, add an additional -1 OCV, -1 DCV.

 

I am more inclined to extend the logic of the FAQ to the use of characters as a weapon. That is, once you Grab that character, you can Squeeze or Throw him for damage, as this is part of the Grab action. However, any other action (including any action which would require a separate attack roll) cannot be undertaken until the character's next phase.

Agreed.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree, with one addendum: If the object is reasonably balanced, and can reasonably be held using one hand, the character suffers no CV penalties for holding the object if it can be lifted one-handed with casual STR. Thus, a character grabbing a sword, bat or tire iron would suffer the -1 OCV, -2 DCV penalty in the phase he picks up the object (stooping to pick it up). After this, he could hold it in one hand at no penalty.

 

This is similar to your rule, but eliminates the Casual STR - 10 factor. Isn't there a rule somewhere on 1 handed lifts? If not, there should be.

 

Sounds good. One handed lifts are STR-5 (TUB pg 9, and I think other books too). But is one handed Casual Strength (STR-5)/2 or (STR/2)-5? I’d push for the latter, as the former breaks down at the low end. For instance, for STR 10, the former leads to one handed casual strength lifting a small refrigerator (37.5 kg), while the latter a full suitcase or a TV set (25 kg). Actually, (STR/2)-5 is pretty similar to my proposed (STR/2)-10. I think (STR/2)-10 works even better at the low end, allowing a something only as heavy as a machine gun or dining room chair (12.5 kg) to be lugged around with no penalty at STR 10. But I can live with (STR/2)-5 since it’s more consistent with other uses of casual strength in our proposed house rules.

 

This grants the max to anything 8 DEF or higher, while requiring truly massive BOD to have any impact. Toying with it, what about DEF/3 (normal rounding applies) + BOD/10 (always rounds down)? And the usual caveat about common and dramatic sense (eg. a 40 BOD sack of feathers is not going to add 4d6 damage).

 

For BODY/10, don’t you mean always rounds up? Otherwise a BODY of 1-9 will generate no extra damage. If you mean BOD of 1-10 = +1d6, 11-20 = +2d6, etc, then that works fine with me. The only issue I have is my system easily generated ½ dice, while this one does just whole dice. Depending on how you feel about ½ dice, this is good or bad. But I like the granularity of half dice. Easily fixed: DEF/3 + ½ d6 for each 5 BOD. So a DEF 3, BOD 3 object generates +1 ½ d6. A DEF 5, BOD 8 object generates +3d6.

 

(1) The maximum is a matter of taste. +4d6 is no less reasonable than +2 or +3, and provides a bit more range for truly massive objects. Your comment begs the question whether one can haymaker with an object. I would say yes, provided the object can be lifted with casual STR (lower STR implies you're pretty much "giving all you've got" just to use it as a weapon).

 

Good idea.

No Haymakering with an object if you can’t lift it with casual strength.

 

(2) I would eliminate this restriction. A normal human has STR 8 (1.5 DC) - I would not limit them to 2d6 or 2d6+1. A "str MIN" approach might work, but is probably too cumbersome. hmmm...maybe "If the object exceeds Casual STR lift, reduce the attacker's STR damage by 1d6. If it exceeds 75% of lift capacity, the attacker's STR is reduced by half for damage". But a fairly light object with high DEF should add damage in pretty much anyone's hands.

 

I don’t agree here. I don’t think crowbar made of adamantium (sp?) is going to generate any more damage in the hands of a STR 10 person than one made of iron. The low STR just can’t generate enough force to take advantage of the higher DEF of adamantium. I’d be OK with making the restriction more generous and allowing someone to double their STR damage with objects, instead of a max of 1 ½ times STR damage. Actually, increasing the max to double ties in pretty well with the Clubs weapon table values. From the table a STR Min 10 club does 4d6N and a STR Min 15 club does 6d6N.

 

(3),(4) What about just "the weapon takes normal damage from the STR used in the attack, based on the standard effect rules". Thus, 1 BOD per 5 STR rolled. I'm inclined not to include the weapon's bonus damage in the damage to the weapon because this implies the higher DEF of the weapon makes it easier to break. The knockback issue is too much added complexity for the added realism, in my opinion, so I would call it an "optional rule" for lack of a better term.

 

Since, by the standard rules, an object can’t do more than DEF+BOD in damage, I figured there should be some drawback to allowing an object to exceed DEF+BOD damage. But perhaps “auto-break†was too harsh. Maybe tone it down to for each d6 over DEF+BOD, the object takes a minimum of 1 BODY in damage. So if a DEF 6 BOD 5 object is swung for 13d6, it will take at least 2 BOD, even if the attacker rolls 13 ones. And I would definitely count the bonus dice when calculating object damage. The whole concept of bonus dice is something we are adding to the rules to the benefit of the attacker. An increased chance of object breakage is a small price to pay for that.

 

Oh, and the KB thing is certainly optional.

 

(5) On the one hand, I think an END cost makes sense. On the other hand, that END cost arises from use of STR to hold the object, so contradicts the general rule that STR costs END only once per phase. Also, a lightweight "adamantium" staff (DEF 12+) and a very heavy, lower DEF bus both add 4d6 - why would they both cost the same END?

 

What about applying it with the "Hold rules" we've set out above? If holding the object would cause no DCV penalty, using it costs no END. If you would be -1/-2, it costs 1 END. If you would be at 1/2 DCV, it costs 2 END. Same range, with a different basis?

 

Actually, I based the END cost on the equivalent number of dice in the Hand-to-Hand Attack power. Since the “bonus dice†of damage are basically “free†dice of HA, from a game mechanics standpoint. I would think that basing the END cost on weight of the object runs even more afoul of the general rule that STR costs END only once per phase. So while I see the logic of your idea, for game balance and consistency reasons I think the END cost should be based on the number of dice. Not that one or two END is going to make a difference in game balance.

 

Hmmm...I think we're getting somewhere here!

 

I think so!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

How ‘bout this. If the object doesn’t fit within your criteria for a “thrown rockâ€/â€club†as described above' date=' but can be lifted with Casual STR, the character suffers a -1 OCV, -1 DCV Weapon Size/Shape penalty. If the object weighs more than can be lifted with Casual STR, the penalties increase to -2 OCV, -2 DCV. If an object is particularly unbalanced and/or unwieldy, add an additional -1 OCV, -1 DCV.[/quote']

 

I'm inclined to leave the DCV penalties to Encumbrance (and/or the Grab penalties). What if we try to dovetail this with the existing mechanic for thrown objects, replacing "aerodynamic" with "heavy" (cannot be lifted with casual STR).

 

The present system imposes a -2 OCV penalty if an object is unbalanced, and a -2 if it is not aerodynamic. What if we add a -2 penalty if the object cannot be lifted with casual STR (one handed casual STR if the character wants to use only one hand), and restrict the "aerodynamic" penalty to thrown objects?

 

Sounds good. One handed lifts are STR-5 (TUB pg 9' date=' and I think other books too). But is one handed Casual Strength (STR-5)/2 or (STR/2)-5? I’d push for the latter, as the former breaks down at the low end. For instance, for STR 10, the former leads to one handed casual strength lifting a small refrigerator (37.5 kg), while the latter a full suitcase or a TV set (25 kg). Actually, (STR/2)-5 is pretty similar to my proposed (STR/2)-10. I think (STR/2)-10 works even better at the low end, allowing a something only as heavy as a machine gun or dining room chair (12.5 kg) to be lugged around with no penalty at STR 10. But I can live with (STR/2)-5 since it’s more consistent with other uses of casual strength in our proposed house rules.[/quote']

 

I'd say casual STR is 1/2 STR, so it's (STR/2) - 5. There's always some issues at the low end, but we aren't all 2 meters tall weighing 100 kg and able to lift our own weight withough excessive strain (ie without pushing STR) either. [nb: Joe Average with 8 STR lifts his own 100 kg weight only if he can push 2 STR higher]

 

For BODY/10' date=' don’t you mean always rounds up? Otherwise a BODY of 1-9 will generate no extra damage. If you mean BOD of 1-10 = +1d6, 11-20 = +2d6, etc, then that works fine with me. The only issue I have is my system easily generated ½ dice, while this one does just whole dice. Depending on how you feel about ½ dice, this is good or bad. But I like the granularity of half dice. Easily fixed: DEF/3 + ½ d6 for each 5 BOD. So a DEF 3, BOD 3 object generates +1 ½ d6. A DEF 5, BOD 8 object generates +3d6.[/quote']

 

No, I was looking at "rounds down" so only a truly massive object would have added damage for BOD. Also, I don't want to reach the max too quickly. 10 BOD is probably too much, however. I also hadn't considered better granularity than 1d6 at a time. What about 1d6 per 3 DEF, and 1d6 per 6 BOD, and using KA DC's for granualrity so 1 DEF = +1 STUN; 2 DEF = 1/2d6 STUN; 3 DEF = 1d6. Full increments of 2 BOD would have the same additions.

 

That 3 DEF, 3 BOD object would do 1d6 for STR, +1 STUN for 2-3 BOD = 1d6 +1. A 5 DEF, 8 BOD object would get 5 "DC" for DEF and 4 "DC" for BOD = +3d6 HTH.We cap out somewhere between light armor (10 DEF) and medium armor (13 DEF), but by this point, the guy doing the hitting is looking for somethhing durable enough it won't shatter on impact.

 

I don’t agree here. I don’t think crowbar made of adamantium (sp?) is going to generate any more damage in the hands of a STR 10 person than one made of iron. The low STR just can’t generate enough force to take advantage of the higher DEF of adamantium. I’d be OK with making the restriction more generous and allowing someone to double their STR damage with objects' date=' instead of a max of 1 ½ times STR damage. Actually, increasing the max to double ties in pretty well with the Clubs weapon table values. From the table a STR Min 10 club does 4d6N and a STR Min 15 club does 6d6N.[/quote']

 

Well, we've already established that you can't get more than +4d6 in any case, which caps out at 12 DEF (between light and medium armor), which should be well below adamantium (heavy armor is 19 DEF).

 

As for capping it, "Joe Average" with his 8 STR needs a 3 DEF 2 BOD slab of plywood to add 1d6 +1 to his 1 1/2d6 STR damage and max out at 3d6 if we use double STR. A 10 STR "above average" guy caps out with a thin strip (1 BOD) of heavy fibreglass (6 DEF). To me, this means we either need to raise the cap on STR from your proposal, or raise the DEF/BOD required to add each d6 to ensure a crowbar will be more effective than, say, a yardstick.

 

Since' date=' by the standard rules, an object can’t do more than DEF+BOD in damage, I figured there should be some drawback to allowing an object to exceed DEF+BOD damage. But perhaps “auto-break†was too harsh.[/quote']

 

If the weapon takes normal damage from the STR used in the attack, and it's swung with STR greater than its combined DEF and BOD, on average it will break. Consider a 3 DEF, 3 BOD object which adds 1d6 +1. Swung at 15 STR, an average blow will inflict 3 BOD - no damage to the object - using only STR, or 4 BOD if we add bonus dice (it can last 3 swings before hitting 0 BOD).

 

Whether or not we add bonus dice, the object will break if swung with 30 STR or more, as it takes 6d6 damage (or 7d6 +1) = 6 (or 7) BOD, reducing it to zero.

 

Inflicting the same damage as the STR used to swing the object, at standard effect, means it will take BOD equal to its DEF + BOD if swung at STR equal to 5x [DEF + BOD]. I like this approach because it creates a range between the current "object undamaged" up to damage of DEF + BOD and "object broken" at the next damage die. You can use actual BOD rolled just as easily as "standard effect",. in which case your "at least 1 BOD taken per d6 done over DEF + BOD is another reasonable addition. I'm inclined to use "standard effect" for simplicity, since we're already pretty complex.

 

Under the current rules, a 3 BOD, 3 DEF object can be swung at 20 STR forever - it will never break, even though it should take 1 BOD per hit, on average.

 

Actually' date=' I based the END cost on the equivalent number of dice in the Hand-to-Hand Attack power. Since the “bonus dice†of damage are basically “free†dice of HA, from a game mechanics standpoint. I would think that basing the END cost on weight of the object runs even more afoul of the general rule that STR costs END only once per phase. So while I see the logic of your idea, for game balance and consistency reasons I think the END cost should be based on the number of dice. Not that one or two END is going to make a difference in game balance.[/quote']

 

While I see the logic and consistency here, extrapolating it means we should base END for a thrown object on both the range and the conversion of STR into an area of effect. At present, throwing the object costs no extra END at all. Let's stick with your mechanic on the basis it has some correlation in game terms, and apply it to both ranged and HTH strikes. It's more intuitive, so one less table, to get to no more than +2 END. [so with standard rounding, that's to +1d6 0 END; 1d6+1 to 3d6 = 1 END; 3d6 +1 to 4d6 = 2 END, right? Nothing's ever easy!]

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

I have to disagree with the use of BODY at all in determining bonus damage. I don't think that a 40 BOD 0 DEF giant sack of feathers should do any bonus damage at all. IMO, the hardness of an object is best represented by it's DEF alone. It seems to me that your formula maxes out too quickly. I'd start the bonus damage a little higher. Items made of leather, rubber, rope, or other "tough but flexible" materials (2-3 DEF) shouldn't do any bonus damage. Only rigid items like wood, metal, stone, (4+ DEF) should start to do bonus damage. So my formula would be (DEF-2)/2, either round down or use half dice, as you prefer.

 

Here is an even more radical idea I had (I only call it more radical because it gets farther away from the printed rules, but IMO gets closer to reality):

 

1) An object used as a weapon has a STR minimum = the STR needed to lift it.

2) Real Physics: the force (STR) needed to lift an object up is the same as the force (weight) that the object exerts down.

3) Therefore, if you let the object weapon simply "fall" on your target, letting the weight of the object do all the work, it will do the same amount of damage as the STR you used to lift it.

4) If you have additional STR, you may use it to increase the amount of force/damage done with the object.

5) The object will do additional damage based on how hard it is.

6) How hard it is is based on it's DEF.

7) Therefore the amount of damage done will be (up to) your STR/5 + the objects DEF in d6. You need not use any additional STR beyond that needed to lift the object.

8) The object will take damage on every swing, subject to its own DEF and BODY. Thus if the STR used greatly exceeds the minimum needed, the object will likely not last long.

9) The maximum STR damage is equal to the BODY (which reflects the mass or substance) of the object.

10) You pay END for the entire amount of STR used (STR to lift + additional force applied with any STR over the minimum).

 

Examples:

10 STR guy swings a 3 BODY, 3 DEF wooden barstool. He can do up to 5d6, which will likely break the barstool apart after two hits. Each swing would cost him 1 END, assuming he uses his full STR. Let's assume the barstool requires a 0 STR to lift (which seems reasonable). If he doesn't use any additional STR, he can do 3d6 on each hit, spending no END, and doing minimal damage to the barstool. If he pushes his STR to 15, he can do 6d6 in one hit, likely shattering the barstool immediately. Pushing his STR beyond 15 will not do any additional damage, since that exceeds the BODY of the stool. He could still push to 20, but that would only increase the damage to the stool itself, not to an opponent. Useful if your goal is to break the barstool, but not if you want to take someone out.

 

30 STR guy swings a 10 BODY, 6 DEF steel girder. He can do up to 12d6 with it, which will also likely break it after two hits. This costs 3 END. If it takes 15 STR just to lift the thing, he can do 9d6 for 1 END without using additional STR beyond that needed to lift it, letting the beam's own weight do most of the work. He only has to do the work to lift it into position before each swing, plus a little to aim. If he pushes his STR to 40, he can do 14d6.

 

50 STR guy swings a 8 BODY, 5 DEF small car. He can do 13d6 with it, using 40 of his STR. Using more STR than this will only break the car faster. If it takes 25 STR to lift the car, he can do 10d6 using only the 25 STR to lift it and the car's own weight and hardness.

 

I just throw this idea out there because I think it's realistic, but I don't necessarily think it's balanced for game play (especially at superheroic levels of play). I think the ideal is to first determine the most realistic system, and then make exceptions/restrictions based on various genres.

 

Oh, and then there's:

11) Sharp, pointy objects do the equivalent DC of killing damage.

11a) Extremely sharp, and very strong objects may even do Armor Piercing damage.

11b) Soft objects may have Reduced Penetration.

11c) Very large, solid, rigid objects may do Penetrating damage. Even Iron Man will feel it if he's hit by a train, simply do to the instantaneous acceleration.

11d) Sharp, pointy objects that aren't particularly strong (thin glass, jagged plastic, sharpened pencil, perhaps an icicle) will do killing damage with reduced penetration.

[JamesG]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

I'm inclined to leave the DCV penalties to Encumbrance (and/or the Grab penalties).

[/Quote]

 

While that’s certainly doable, I’d personally prefer to stay away from Encumbrance rules in a Supers game. Just too many additional on-the-fly calculations. Plus, up to now, we’ve been sticking with modifiers based on if something can be lifted with Casual STR, which is usually pretty easy to eye-ball. But with Encumbrance, you need a better idea of exactly how much something weighs, which may not be so easy to quickly dermine.

 

What if we try to dovetail this with the existing mechanic for thrown objects, replacing "aerodynamic" with "heavy" (cannot be lifted with casual STR).

 

The present system imposes a -2 OCV penalty if an object is unbalanced, and a -2 if it is not aerodynamic. What if we add a -2 penalty if the object cannot be lifted with casual STR (one handed casual STR if the character wants to use only one hand), and restrict the "aerodynamic" penalty to thrown objects?

 

Workable, but I want to impose DCV penalties or heavy/unwieldy items since I’m not using Encumbrance. I’d go with:

Item is unbalanced: -1 OCV / -1 DCV

Item is heavy (can’t be lifted with Casual STR): -1 OCV / -1 DCV

Item is unwieldy: For each doubling of area (starting with Fills two hexes): -1 OCV / -1 DCV

 

All penalties are cumulative. All three apply when using items as a H-to-H weapon, only the last two apply to thrown objects (but thrown objects are subject to the existing unbalanced/unaerodynamic penalties as appropriate).

 

I also hadn't considered better granularity than 1d6 at a time. What about 1d6 per 3 DEF, and 1d6 per 6 BOD, and using KA DC's for granualrity so 1 DEF = +1 STUN; 2 DEF = 1/2d6 STUN; 3 DEF = 1d6. Full increments of 2 BOD would have the same additions.

 

That 3 DEF, 3 BOD object would do 1d6 for STR, +1 STUN for 2-3 BOD = 1d6 +1. A 5 DEF, 8 BOD object would get 5 "DC" for DEF and 4 "DC" for BOD = +3d6

 

I like this. I like it a lot.

 

As for capping it, "Joe Average" with his 8 STR needs a 3 DEF 2 BOD slab of plywood to add 1d6 +1 to his 1 1/2d6 STR damage and max out at 3d6 if we use double STR. A 10 STR "above average" guy caps out with a thin strip (1 BOD) of heavy fibreglass (6 DEF). To me, this means we either need to raise the cap on STR from your proposal, or raise the DEF/BOD required to add each d6 to ensure a crowbar will be more effective than, say, a yardstick.

 

I’m perfectly OK with 8 STR Joe Average capping out at 3d6, it matches up exactly with a STR Min 8 “club†from the weapons table. A yardstick is what, 1 or 2 DEF, 1 BOD? Don’t think we need to worry about it doing as much as a DEF 5 BOD 3 crowbar. But your thin strip of heavy fiberglass did make me think of something. An item with significantly less BOD than DEF should do less damage, since it lacks the mass to use its DEF to full effect. I’d propose that for each three points BOD is less than DEF, an object loses two “DCâ€. So that thin strip would be 6 DC (from 6 DEF) + 0 DC (from 1 BOD) – 2 DC (from BOD 5 less than DEF)= 4DC, or 1d6+1. The crowbar is 5 DC (DEF) + 1 DC (BOD) – 0 DC (BOD 2 less than DEF) = 6 DC or 2D6.

 

If the weapon takes normal damage from the STR used in the attack, and it's swung with STR greater than its combined DEF and BOD, on average it will break. Consider a 3 DEF, 3 BOD object which adds 1d6 +1. Swung at 15 STR, an average blow will inflict 3 BOD - no damage to the object - using only STR, or 4 BOD if we add bonus dice (it can last 3 swings before hitting 0 BOD).

 

Whether or not we add bonus dice, the object will break if swung with 30 STR or more, as it takes 6d6 damage (or 7d6 +1) = 6 (or 7) BOD, reducing it to zero.

 

Inflicting the same damage as the STR used to swing the object, at standard effect, means it will take BOD equal to its DEF + BOD if swung at STR equal to 5x [DEF + BOD]. I like this approach because it creates a range between the current "object undamaged" up to damage of DEF + BOD and "object broken" at the next damage die. You can use actual BOD rolled just as easily as "standard effect",. in which case your "at least 1 BOD taken per d6 done over DEF + BOD is another reasonable addition. I'm inclined to use "standard effect" for simplicity, since we're already pretty complex.

 

I’m not sure if we are in agreement here yet or not. I’m still in the camp that all the dice used to cause damage to the target should cause damage to the object. But good point that, on average, a blow at greater than DEF+BOD will destroy the object anyway. So I think we can drop any auto-break or “at least one BOD per extra d6†conditions.

 

Since we need to roll the damage to see how much the attacker inflicts on his target, we may as well use that roll to determine damage to the object as well, instead of using standard effect.

 

Under the current rules, a 3 BOD, 3 DEF object can be swung at 20 STR forever - it will never break, even though it should take 1 BOD per hit, on average.

 

I’m not sure what you mean here. Non-weapon objects used as impromptu “clubs†do take damage when used as weapons, at the GMs discretion. The amount of damage depends on how “weapon-like†the object is. (FRED, pg 253).

 

While I see the logic and consistency here, extrapolating it means we should base END for a thrown object on both the range and the conversion of STR into an area of effect. At present, throwing the object costs no extra END at all. Let's stick with your mechanic on the basis it has some correlation in game terms, and apply it to both ranged and HTH strikes. It's more intuitive, so one less table, to get to no more than +2 END. [so with standard rounding, that's to +1d6 0 END; 1d6+1 to 3d6 = 1 END; 3d6 +1 to 4d6 = 2 END, right? Nothing's ever easy!]

 

I agree, any “bonus dice†added to a thrown object should cost END, just like using the object in H-to-H combat. On the END cost, any bonus “diceâ€, even just +1 pip, cost 1 END (based on END cost of the Hand-to-Hand Attack power). So +1 pip to 3d6 is 1 END, and 3d6+1 to 4d6 is 2 END.

 

Though, you have me thinking that the extra area large objects allow the attacker to effect should have an END cost too. While I would not want to calculate the END cost of the AoE advantage on STR on the fly, maybe a simple formula like for every doubling of size, add +1 END. And remember, I’m using the optional rule described on FRED pg 253 for large objects, where the attacker does not attack DCV 3 as in a true AoE attack, but instead gets an OCV bonus based to the size of the object he is attacking with. So I have to know how many doublings there are anyway, to determine the OCV bonus. If a brick wants to do true AoE attacks with objects of opportunity, he must pay for the power.

[JamesG]

Re: Bashing people with chairs, lightpoles, automobiles...

 

I have to disagree with the use of BODY at all in determining bonus damage. I don't think that a 40 BOD 0 DEF giant sack of feathers should do any bonus damage at all.

 

Hmmm, I think Hugh has already mentioned the caveat that the GM needs to use some judgment for unusual objects. So a giant sack of feathers would not get any bonus damage, except perhaps to determine knockback only.

 

Also, the use of BODY in the bonus dice calculations is due to the fact that, to a large extent, BODY is an abstraction for mass for inanimate objects. There are exceptions of course, such as heavy objects with delicate workings (high mass, low BOD), but that’s where GM judgment comes in. But think of a cinderblock vs a fist sized piece of concrete. They have the same DEF, but the cinderblock will cause more damage when you hit someone over the head with it, due to its higher mass, represented by higher BOD.

 

IMO, the hardness of an object is best represented by it's DEF alone.

 

Agreed, but I think the BOD/mass of an object can lead to “bonus damage†as well, you don’t. Instead, you use BOD/mass as a limiting factor, in point 9.

 

It seems to me that your formula maxes out too quickly. I'd start the bonus damage a little higher.

 

And I think your system accelerates damage too quickly. Your 30 STR guy just doubled his damage output by picking up a girder. Too effective, IMHO.

 

Items made of leather, rubber, rope, or other "tough but flexible" materials (2-3 DEF) shouldn't do any bonus damage. Only rigid items like wood, metal, stone, (4+ DEF) should start to do bonus damage. So my formula would be (DEF-2)/2, either round down or use half dice, as you prefer.

 

Glass is DEF 1, Bone is DEF 2. Items made from either should generate bonus damage, though they will probably break themselves in the process. “Tough but flexible†is more a property of the specific object material, not the DEF itself. Again, GM’s judgment may be needed, particularly at the low end of the DEF scale.

 

 

Here is an even more radical idea I had (I only call it more radical because it gets farther away from the printed rules, but IMO gets closer to reality):

 

1) An object used as a weapon has a STR minimum = the STR needed to lift it.

2) Real Physics: the force (STR) needed to lift an object up is the same as the force (weight) that the object exerts down.

3) Therefore, if you let the object weapon simply "fall" on your target, letting the weight of the object do all the work, it will do the same amount of damage as the STR you used to lift it.

4) If you have additional STR, you may use it to increase the amount of force/damage done with the object.

5) The object will do additional damage based on how hard it is.

6) How hard it is is based on it's DEF.

7) Therefore the amount of damage done will be (up to) your STR/5 + the objects DEF in d6. You need not use any additional STR beyond that needed to lift the object.

8) The object will take damage on every swing, subject to its own DEF and BODY. Thus if the STR used greatly exceeds the minimum needed, the object will likely not last long.

9) The maximum STR damage is equal to the BODY (which reflects the mass or substance) of the object.

10) You pay END for the entire amount of STR used (STR to lift + additional force applied with any STR over the minimum).

 

An interesting system. Whether or not its more “realistic†than the one Hugh and I have been batting around is a debatable point. But I do think yours is less playable. Its more cumbersome (not that ours isn’t somewhat cumbersome) and you need to the exact STR needed to lift something. As I mentioned in my last post, needing to know more or less exactly what something weighs can be problematic to determine quickly.

 

I just throw this idea out there because I think it's realistic, but I don't necessarily think it's balanced for game play (especially at superheroic levels of play). I think the ideal is to first determine the most realistic system, and then make exceptions/restrictions based on various genres.

 

Well, as I mentioned, I find the increased realism debatable. And I don’t think it’s balanced, as it can lead to vastly higher damage totals particularly in the Superheroic genre. And that’s the genre such rules will find the most play. My ideal is balance/playability, with realism a secondary goal. Particularly when realism is so arguable.

 

Oh, and then there's:

11) Sharp, pointy objects do the equivalent DC of killing damage.

11a) Extremely sharp, and very strong objects may even do Armor Piercing damage.

11b) Soft objects may have Reduced Penetration.

11c) Very large, solid, rigid objects may do Penetrating damage. Even Iron Man will feel it if he's hit by a train, simply do to the instantaneous acceleration.

11d) Sharp, pointy objects that aren't particularly strong (thin glass, jagged plastic, sharpened pencil, perhaps an icicle) will do killing damage with reduced penetration.

 

All good guidelines for GM judgment calls, except perhaps 11c. I don’t find that one particularly in genre.