Lack of Power coverage

[SirViss]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Actually, one minor item that ought to have a rule is "Blocks breathing". Not a 6d6 NND vs life support - just prevents the target from breathing with the implication they can't take recoveries, and will gradually lose END, then STUN then BOD.

 

Examples? Sue Richards force bubbles; X-Movie Toad's sticky facial entangle; lots more out there if one cares to look. It shouldn't cot ahuge amount given a Choke Hold has the same effect and only costs a few points.

 

It would be a pretty easy adder for entangles and force wals - "Prevents Breathing". Probably +5 or +10 points. But it would be nice to have an official means of doing this (that doesn't involve Suppress Recovery and tiny linked attacks to take first END, then STUN and then BOD).

 

Unless you insist to build it as part of a Force Wall or an Entangle, wouldn't this just be a 1d6 Drain [or EB] NND (LS:Self-contained Breathing), continuous? It might require concentration or some other limitations. I have never seen anyone actually break the Invisible Woman force bubble be broken when it was only around the head of someone. Loss of END would be simulated by the simple fact that when a character is at 0 Stun or less, the End falls to 0, and loss of Body would be a GM fiat, as part of the SFX.

 

As to the Toad's spit attack, that one would be more problematical. There has to be someway to get the attack to stop. An Entangle with a new Adder probably would be the way to go, i guess.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

The problem is that "Supernatural" is a special effect that can subsume Physical' date=' Energy, and Mental special effects. In fact, in my campaign, [i']everything[/i] is technically a supernatural effect.

 

Essentially, you'd have to decide if supernatural fire affected ED or "SD" (Supernatural Defense). As in standard campaigns, many if not most characters would not have justification for high supernatural defenses, it would be to the advantage of any player to define his supernatural fire as affecting Supernatural not Energy. He'd therefore get a free benefit akin to mentalists -- powers that affect a rare defense. He should pay for that benefit (like, say, AVLD).

 

In the end, though, it is a special effect that would just not apply to many Hero games -- any one that does not deal with the supernatural. To me, that sounds like it's an idea for a house rule, not the rulebook.

Although I'm not passionate about adding a specific supernatural element, I am passionate about eliminating the oddities and vagaries around "Power Defense". In any case, as to your point, it's specifically my point that supernatural forces by definiton can't be classed as physical or energy or mental as in fact they do not affect any of those defenses, that's the point - they are a force as yet unknown to us and their effect on a person cannot be explained at this point by physical impact or a release of observable energy or brainwave or similar activity. HERO's only current method of dealing with that is Power Defense - but Power Defense has the strange position of also being allowed to overlap with any of the others and mean everything and nothing at once.

[Lightray]

It would be a pretty easy adder for entangles and force walls - "Prevents Breathing". Probably +5 or +10 points. But it would be nice to have an official means of doing this (that doesn't involve Suppress Recovery and tiny linked attacks to take first END' date=' then STUN and then BOD).[/quote']

hrm. I'd be more inclined to use Change Environment, somehow, for this effect.

 

And speaking of, it would be good to have some way of making Change Environment affect One Target Only. I've had several circumstances where a power changes the environment for only one target (applying movement penalties, or whatever). I'm still debating what kludge to use for that.

 

Although I'm not passionate about adding a specific supernatural element' date=' I am passionate about eliminating the oddities and vagaries around "Power Defense". In any case, as to your point, it's specifically my point that supernatural forces [b']by definiton[/b] can't be classed as physical or energy or mental as in fact they do not affect any of those defenses, that's the point - they are a force as yet unknown to us and their effect on a person cannot be explained at this point by physical impact or a release of observable energy or brainwave or similar activity. HERO's only current method of dealing with that is Power Defense - but Power Defense has the strange position of also being allowed to overlap with any of the others and mean everything and nothing at once.

Ah, see my definition of supernatural is more like "a means to produce natural forces (or whatever) by some mechanism that I don't have to explain to my science-heavy players". So if Fire Angel uses his supernatural fire powers, they behave just like fire does.

 

BUT. I agree that Power Defense is vague as defined right now. I know what it defends against, but it is not clear what type of special effects would be appropriate for a character to take Power Defense. Immutable Man, and who -- wizards and supernaturals? It's easy to tell who should have PD or ED, or Mental Defense.

 

But, then, based on the UNTIL Superpowers Database, it seems we're to believe that any special effect can justify any Power. Which is a little too Silver Age for my liking.

[Tom McCarthy]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Just some noodling:

 

Any power with more than three advantages or more than 3 disadvantages deserves consideration as a separate power unto itself.

 

Power Mimicry and Theft - Somehow, a power mimicry VPP doesn't seem counterintuitive, but the power theft builds always seem complex. I'd have voted for building a separate power for this.

 

Possession and Mind Swapping - Again, people know how to build these from existing components (ref. the Spirit Rules), but they really deserve to be built as special powers. Bodyjacker is a cool concept who shouldn't cost that many points.

 

Absorption of multiple types without buying the power multiple times - Great idea.

Absorption as a defence - we probably want an absorption which defends based on amount absorbed, not on amount rolled

 

Multiform - I'd like to see an adder or advantage for "Any form up to max points" (floating multiform).

 

Contagious - I'd like to see Sticky (+1) for attacks that are Sticky not just from the original target, but from all secondary and tertiary targets.

 

Flowing like a liquid - Desolidification is the single power for avoiding barriers and avoiding damage 100%. It probably should be two powers. There's concepts that call for avoiding barriers or avoiding damage but not the other. And this is frequently a reductionist system.

 

Deemphasize the physical - The attributes in the game favour the physical. Historically, it's easy to see why; the game grew from a genre which was focused, at the time, on physical combat. It has some stumbling points as a consequence; the concept of astral forms and spirits can be hard to work with, and mages have to work doubly hard because of the combined physical/mental effects of their powers. They deserve a stat they can use to create a CV with which to attack others (possibly against ECV or DCV).

 

Paralysis - I know there's mental entangles, but a way to force someone to freeze perhaps should be more straightforward.

 

Object Creation - There was a beautiful article on this in Digital Hero where the object's BODY and DEF were built up Entangle style, with object creation skills and the like. On the other hand, I think the Incomplete Characters concept needs a bit of work before it's becomes the official "Masterclass" "Stuffed in the Appendix" way to make a focus with the DEF, BODY and powers you want.

 

Mental powers all or nothing - I might like to see some mental powers which are cumulative and "mental REC" which can lower the effect of ongoing mental assaults (rather than an EGO roll). Then a mind control does indeed slowly build and overcome defences. An attempt to snap someone free from mental attack becomes a way to reduce the overall effect. Throw ina smattering of effects from the PRE attack table to make someone delay or pause, and you've got something very interesting.

 

Absolute Defences - yep, should be in there

 

Oil Slicks - yep, deserves aa power (even if it's just a narrow Change Environment)

 

Shockwaves and Forceblasts (that just knock people down without damage)

 

Regeneration and Healing as separate powers (heck, I'm not even sure why Regeneration doesn't require Continuous or the like).

 

Sizes - I know it's the genre, but if Growth and Shrinking are the powers for changing your size, why are they useless as attacks ? Ditto Density Increase, really.

 

Suffocation - I like it. Much better than an instantaneous NND.

 

Dispel - why isn't this SFX driven ? It could easily be rewritten with the starting level as "Dispel any fire power, one at a a time" as the base, rather than "Dispel EB".

 

Duplication - how about an adder to freely replace dead duplicates ? or even make the current hard limit on duplicates a limitation ?

 

Missile deflection vs. hand to hand blows - yep, I know it's called a block. Except it doesn't have such easy options for acting at range.

 

Animating objects - this could use some work

 

Damage Shield - I'd like to see No Range be a valid limitation for ranged powers used in a damage shield, the way Strength Doesn't Add is for HA and HKA damage shields.

 

Beating someone to death - It's not a pleasant topic, but there should be some way that unconscious figures can be killed. It simply isn't possible (IIRC) for a 50 STR brick to do BODY to a 30 PD brick even after he's beaten unconscious (unless the coup de grace rules are far more generous than I recall).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Any power with more than three advantages or more than 3 disadvantages deserves consideration as a separate power unto itself.

 

Corrollary: Any ability which gets three or more completely different w/u's when discussed on the boards needs its own power (or at least a formal "way to do this in Hero").

[Lightray]

Sizes - I know it's the genre' date=' but if Growth and Shrinking are the powers for changing your size, why are they useless as attacks ? Ditto Density Increase, really.[/quote']

eh? I know that Stretching has a velocity damage adder -- did this get dropped from Shrinking/Growth while I wasn't paying attention?

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Maybe there just needs to be some rules for "scalability" of advantages and limitations - that might resolve a lot of issues, allowing for things we worry about stacking (such as KA if it were purely in the form of +1 or such) so that the rules can be even more consistent.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Density Decrease - No, not Desolidification, Density Decrease. Same size, incrementally less mass, still solid. Flesh is about as dense as water. Ice and wood are less dense.

 

Tom mentioned Liquification/Fluidification - You're still physically there and you can still physically effect the world. This has been discussed before. I like the idea of gradually increasing fluidity/decreasing viscosity based on the points spent: Say 10 points to become jelly-like, 20 pts to become syrup-like, 30 to become water-like (HydroMan). Or something like that. Say 20 to become sand-like (Sandman), 30 to become powder-like.

 

Related is the idea of Malleability/Squeezability, like Cobra (Marvel villain) who could squeeze himselfe through narrow openings. I like to include this with Stretching, and allow a "Narrowing only -1/2" to remove the ranged reach aspect.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Corrollary: Any ability which gets three or more completely different w/u's when discussed on the boards needs its own power (or at least a formal "way to do this in Hero").

I disagree completely because certainly in comics, not every similar ability works exactly the same way. Building things differently yields the slight but important differences between different characters' powers. As long as you and your GM agree that the build works, I don't see the problem.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Density Decrease - No, not Desolidification, Density Decrease. Same size, incrementally less mass, still solid. Flesh is about as dense as water. Ice and wood are less dense.

 

Tom mentioned Liquification/Fluidification - You're still physically there and you can still physically effect the world. This has been discussed before. I like the idea of gradually increasing fluidity/decreasing viscosity based on the points spent: Say 10 points to become jelly-like, 20 pts to become syrup-like, 30 to become water-like (HydroMan). Or something like that. Say 20 to become sand-like (Sandman), 30 to become powder-like.

 

Related is the idea of Malleability/Squeezability, like Cobra (Marvel villain) who could squeeze himselfe through narrow openings. I like to include this with Stretching, and allow a "Narrowing only -1/2" to remove the ranged reach aspect.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what exactly is the game effect of having less mass that you would be paying for here? Becoming jelly-like, for example, just seems like part of the special effect of turning on a power like Damage Reduction.

 

As for the Mallebility/Squeeability power, I use a limited Desolid. The limited form of Stretching doesn't work for me because Stretching does not include that ability.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Just some noodling:

 

Any power with more than three advantages or more than 3 disadvantages deserves consideration as a separate power unto itself.

I disagree with most of these needing to be their own Powers.

 

Power Mimicry and Theft - Somehow, a power mimicry VPP doesn't seem counterintuitive, but the power theft builds always seem complex. I'd have voted for building a separate power for this.

This is a rare enough abillity that I don't think it should be a separate power. I'd like the Multiform-Transform combo that Steve used in USPD best of any approach I've seen.

 

Possession and Mind Swapping - Again, people know how to build these from existing components (ref. the Spirit Rules), but they really deserve to be built as special powers. Bodyjacker is a cool concept who shouldn't cost that many points.

Again, these are fairly rare abilities. But they are complex enough that I think they need something better. Perhaps Possession could be done as an Advantage on Mind Control. Although personally, I have no problems with this ability being very expensive.

 

As for Mind Swapping, I have to admit I'm not sure right now. Perhaps it is simply Posession (however it is built) with a Side Effect of the other person prossessing your body.

 

Absorption of multiple types without buying the power multiple times - Great idea.

Absorption as a defence - we probably want an absorption which defends based on amount absorbed, not on amount rolled

I don't see the problem with simply buying the Power multiple times. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

When you say based on the amount absorbed, do you mean the total absorbed thus far? In any case, wouldn't this just be a matter of taking an appropriate limitation of some kind of PD/ED?

 

Multiform - I'd like to see an adder or advantage for "Any form up to max points" (floating multiform).

I could see this.

 

Contagious - I'd like to see Sticky (+1) for attacks that are Sticky not just from the original target, but from all secondary and tertiary targets.

Okay. That might work.

 

Flowing like a liquid - Desolidification is the single power for avoiding barriers and avoiding damage 100%. It probably should be two powers. There's concepts that call for avoiding barriers or avoiding damage but not the other. And this is frequently a reductionist system.

Not quite sure what you mean by a reductionist system. What's wrong with simply buying a limitation on Desolid to get just what you want from the Power?

 

Deemphasize the physical - The attributes in the game favour the physical. Historically, it's easy to see why; the game grew from a genre which was focused, at the time, on physical combat. It has some stumbling points as a consequence; the concept of astral forms and spirits can be hard to work with, and mages have to work doubly hard because of the combined physical/mental effects of their powers. They deserve a stat they can use to create a CV with which to attack others (possibly against ECV or DCV).

Okay. I have no problem with the current system, but I may not be seeing what you're getting at.

 

Paralysis - I know there's mental entangles, but a way to force someone to freeze perhaps should be more straightforward.

Well, there's always SPD Drain or Transform.

 

Object Creation - There was a beautiful article on this in Digital Hero where the object's BODY and DEF were built up Entangle style, with object creation skills and the like. On the other hand, I think the Incomplete Characters concept needs a bit of work before it's becomes the official "Masterclass" "Stuffed in the Appendix" way to make a focus with the DEF, BODY and powers you want.

No comment on this one.

 

Mental powers all or nothing - I might like to see some mental powers which are cumulative and "mental REC" which can lower the effect of ongoing mental assaults (rather than an EGO roll). Then a mind control does indeed slowly build and overcome defences. An attempt to snap someone free from mental attack becomes a way to reduce the overall effect. Throw ina smattering of effects from the PRE attack table to make someone delay or pause, and you've got something very interesting.

Perhaps.

 

Absolute Defences - yep, should be in there

Nope. I fall into the "there are no absolutes" camp on this one.

 

 

Oil Slicks - yep, deserves aa power (even if it's just a narrow Change Environment)

Nah. The combat effects of Change Environment handle this just fine.

 

Shockwaves and Forceblasts (that just knock people down without damage)

Energy Blasts that only do Knockback.

 

Regeneration and Healing as separate powers (heck, I'm not even sure why Regeneration doesn't require Continuous or the like).

Well, I'm sure that Steve thought it was a good idea at the time. But I'd prefer them separate or a better build for Regen -- perhaps simply an Advantage on Healing to make it Regen.

 

Sizes - I know it's the genre, but if Growth and Shrinking are the powers for changing your size, why are they useless as attacks ? Ditto Density Increase, really.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

 

Suffocation - I like it. Much better than an instantaneous NND.

Dispel - why isn't this SFX driven ? It could easily be rewritten with the starting level as "Dispel any fire power, one at a a time" as the base, rather than "Dispel EB".

I can see both sides on this.

 

Duplication - how about an adder to freely replace dead duplicates ? or even make the current hard limit on duplicates a limitation ?

Buy a Limitation on one or more extra doublings of Duplication -- only to replace dead duplicates.

 

Missile deflection vs. hand to hand blows - yep, I know it's called a block. Except it doesn't have such easy options for acting at range.

Maybe.

 

Animating objects - this could use some work

I don't see the problem with the Summon approach.

 

Damage Shield - I'd like to see No Range be a valid limitation for ranged powers used in a damage shield, the way Strength Doesn't Add is for HA and HKA damage shields.

I could agree with this.

 

Beating someone to death - It's not a pleasant topic, but there should be some way that unconscious figures can be killed. It simply isn't possible (IIRC) for a 50 STR brick to do BODY to a 30 PD brick even after he's beaten unconscious (unless the coup de grace rules are far more generous than I recall).

I'd have to reflect on this one. But it should be harder to do a coup de grace on a tough being.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

I disagree completely because certainly in comics' date=' not every similar ability works exactly the same way. Building things differently yields the slight but important differences between different characters' powers. As long as you and your GM agree that the build works, I don't see the problem.[/quote']

 

If there are legitimate differences in the power construct, I agree. I wouldn't want to, say, fold KA, EB and NND into one power just because they're all "I attack and do damage".

 

If the difference in effects is only SFX, however, I disagree. There should be one way to build such powers. We don't have, or need, "Fire EB", "Lightning EB", etc. Now, maybe we need some base powers, advantages, limits and adders to simulate different ways these powers work, but having three different ways to build the exact same power indicates, to me, that there's no real Hero build for that power.

[Tom McCarthy]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Perhaps a rhetorical question but doesn't it strike you as odd that you would never attack your opponent with a Shrinking Ray built as "Shrinking Usable As Attack" ?

[Magmarock]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Object Creation - There was a beautiful article on this in Digital Hero where the object's BODY and DEF were built up Entangle style' date=' with object creation skills and the like. On the other hand, I think the Incomplete Characters concept needs a bit of work before it's becomes the official "Masterclass" "Stuffed in the Appendix" way to make a focus with the DEF, BODY and powers you want.[/quote']

 

 

We did something like this years ago for an Iceman-type character.

For the PC's ice-slides, we used the Tunneling power and declared that instead of going through solid matter, he created it. All the rules for DEF & BODY were already in place and he could choose to take someone with him (if they held onto his belt) or people could follow him. The SFX was ice, of course, so it was slippery and would melt depending on the current temperature. Also, the ice-slides could be damaged by attacks. He was not allowed to use the Tunneling in the traditional way, however. This worked out very well, all around.

 

So with a little thought, certain powers can be "inverted" and used to create a different effect yet using the same rule.

 

For an Aquan character, I bought the Swinging power. Instead of the traditional method of swinging from tall objects using a line (or web), my Aquan PC, Monsoon, was carried along by a column of water she controlled which enveloped the lower half of her body. Instead of the arc being anchored above, it was anchored at a point on the ground. The same rules for Swinging applied.

 

I've utilzed this same concept for Disads, too. I once made a Mentalist PC who's mind would go on haitus at the most inopportune time. There was a chance that she would go catatonic if someone attacked her with mental powers. I used the Enraged rules for this, and it was worth the same amount of points because she could be in serious danger if it happened during combat (the most likely time for her to be attacked by another Mentalist.)

 

 

 

To sum up: Many of the existing rules can be used to create a new power (or disadvantage) with a different purpose or effect. Whether you give the power a new name or not is up to you. In my examples we didn't rename them but we know that these options are acceptable in future games.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mitzie

[Guest Kolava]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Perhaps a rhetorical question but doesn't it strike you as odd that you would never attack your opponent with a Shrinking Ray built as "Shrinking Usable As Attack" ?

 

I think a Major transform would work fine for this, don't you?

[Zanthis]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

I think a Major transform would work fine for this' date=' don't you?[/quote']

Nonsense, I prefer a Megascaled, Area Effect, Usable As Attack, Growth with Hole in the Middle to exclude the target you wish to shrink. Sure, it costs more points, but it is more difficult (and interesting) to Dispel, plus it avoids your the targets defenses entirely!!!

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

I think a Major transform would work fine for this' date=' don't you?[/quote']Ah, ah, that violates one of the rules I set out when starting this thread. If you have to resort to Major Transform or Extra-Dimensional movement to accomplish what is essentially a well defined and simple effect then it should be it's own power (not always, there are always exceptions).

 

TB

[Guest Kolava]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

True, Transform is usually cheating, but in this case it truely is the exacty power you are describing. You are transforming your target into something else; it's not a "last resort", it's common sense (of course, you need to set limits on what transforming means). It's certainly more reasonable than creating new powers to chop us Transform. Do we really need "Offensive Shrink"?

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Absorption -- I've considered a + 3/4 advantage Defensive. I think buying linked armor (at now a - 1/4) a bulky way to do things.

 

Shape Shift -- the pay for senses thing doesn't strike me as quite right.

 

Instant Change -- seems bulky bundled into Shape Shift.

 

Possession/Bodyjacking

 

Clinging -- variable terrain; flight surface only is bulky to just be able to run up a wall or over water. +5 to 10 adder?

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

If there are legitimate differences in the power construct, I agree. I wouldn't want to, say, fold KA, EB and NND into one power just because they're all "I attack and do damage".

 

If the difference in effects is only SFX, however, I disagree. There should be one way to build such powers. We don't have, or need, "Fire EB", "Lightning EB", etc. Now, maybe we need some base powers, advantages, limits and adders to simulate different ways these powers work, but having three different ways to build the exact same power indicates, to me, that there's no real Hero build for that power.

WARNING - RAMBLE ALERT!

 

I just am not sure what to think about this...

 

HERO is a toolkit. Part of its appeal is that a build one GM will call cheesy another will call "just right" - for what is the same construct. And to imagine 4 or more of these doesn't phase me.

 

Yet certainly there is a point as to at what point the "toolkit" is actually a big refrigerator box that we write "Transmogrifier", "Time Travel', and such on and just circle or use a pointer for which "pretend power" we want. In other words, at some point we cross the line to in essence not having rules truly. And without rules - without orthodoxy - it is not simply harder to port between games but it is difficult, as in any social setting, to establish an order that is considered legitimate.

 

In other words, at some point HERO, if taken to this extreme, is FUDGE, and at some point FUDGE, if taken to this extreme, is that cardboard box. There is NOTHING wrong PER SE with any of these approaches, but if we start with rhetoric that we have a rules system but belie it with a praxis that is anything but a system, then we have an irresponsible and most likely ineffective form of anarchy. Anarchy where the rhetoric is anarchy is fine - the group knows their conduct needn't have bounds and they must rely solely on each other's good will and spirit of compromise. And we know there were many successful games of pretend cowboys and indians partly because we were indeed lucky enough to have the right collection of people for anarchic play but also because that group also went into the situation knowing they would be relied upon to cooperatively play with no guidelines.

 

So to put it another way, there is a line somewhere at which point we are not playing HERO anymore if power constructs exist willy-nilly.

 

But what is that bar? A construct with >2 builds?

 

I'm not sure. I'm sure that you've identified a telling point Hugh. It will plague me...and just when I'm having serious issues trying to reconcile my single/no framework theory.

 

And thanks - I owe you rep... (I'm out at the moment)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Ok, my question is:

 

What powers/effects that exist commonly in genre (any genre: Fantasy, Comic Book, Sci-Fi, etc...) do you think are not adequately covered in the existing Hero 5th Ed. Powers regime. I specifically exclude catch all powers such as Major Transform, Cosmic VPP, and their ilk. While, although they are useful for cutting to the chase on certain things, I'm looking for proposals from you Hero Fans out there that don't just entail 15d6 Major Transform (Something into What I Want).

The problem I see with avoiding the use of Transform is that what other mechanic are you going to use as a defense against any replacement/NEW power? Shrinking usable against others describes the effect but not the defense. Transform has a very clear and well worked out mechanic for Power Defense and Body.

 

Unless a NEW power description has a simpler but still fair mechanic for defense against the power there is no reason to not just use Transform instead.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Another thing I'd like to see rules for is Size. We got Shrinking and we got Growth. But we don't have anything representing how being large/small affects your chances of making and avoiding attacks in HTH. Realistically' date=' any character that's large should get an OCV penalty equal to his DCV penalty (just as if he were normal size and his target were shrunk), but he doesn't (really, his targets should get a DCV bonus equal to his DCV penalty, but whatever).[/quote']

I agree the listed rules for these powers is a bit sparse but I would argue in favor of the characters that paid for the respective size altering power to say that they are used to dealing with the disparity and therefore should not suffer penalties like their opponents. Think of it in the same way that characters who pay for 'guns' don't have to buy the weapon familiarities.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

I know people don't like to hear this one, but Invulnerability. Modeling it with Desol isn't that sound, too hand-waving, and the power doesn't have its own set of guidelines unto itself as it (genre-ically) requires.

 

Also, I really think a case can be made for 4 types of attack instead of 3 - we have physical, energy, and mental. I would add "supernatural" and I would REPLACE Power Defense with that, basing it on INT. I think this works very well as a generic bases for all genres, and eliminates that dodgy what-the-heck-is-it Power Defense. Supernatural is a, well, natural catch-all. You can also use supernaturally-based and supernatural attacks as those things which don't affect physical, energy, or mental - the oogity-boogity magic stuff.

Invulnerability is a very slippery thing. In the comics it should be called virtually invulnerable/indestructable since the 2 best examples of it: Captain America's Shield and Superman practically define it but both can and have been affected by very powerfull opponents. That should settle the issue since any player wanting to play a character more powerful than Superman or tougher that Cap's shield should be laughed at!

 

I really like the way you summed up the 'Power Defense' problem.

 

I agree it needs to have a more concrete effect that it is tied to but like Dustraven points out later in the thread, that implies magic. I think a more apt description that would fit in with existing UMA rules would be to describe it as a type of Karma or Chi'. Heck, call it the Force. That way a mechanic is explained for magical AND non-magical items to have the potential for some defense depending on the Karma of the area the material was mined or the individual(s) who crafted the item.

 

As a figured characteristic it probably needs to be a blend of 2 primaries like CON and INT taking the sum of each divided by 10. with rounding this would give a normal 2 defense. One result of applying figured stats for Power and Ego defense is that it would require retro-fitting any NND attacks with those powers as a defense, maybe just a minimum 10-15 points but then that jumps over to the realm of AVLD so it would be tricky in either case.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Invulnerability is a very slippery thing. In the comics it should be called virtually invulnerable/indestructable since the 2 best examples of it: Captain America's Shield and Superman practically define it but both can and have been affected by very powerfull opponents. That should settle the issue since any player wanting to play a character more powerful than Superman or tougher that Cap's shield should be laughed at!

 

I really like the way you summed up the 'Power Defense' problem.

 

I agree it needs to have a more concrete effect that it is tied to but like Dustraven points out later in the thread, that implies magic. I think a more apt description that would fit in with existing UMA rules would be to describe it as a type of Karma or Chi'. Heck, call it the Force. That way a mechanic is explained for magical AND non-magical items to have the potential for some defense depending on the Karma of the area the material was mined or the individual(s) who crafted the item.

 

As a figured characteristic it probably needs to be a blend of 2 primaries like CON and INT taking the sum of each divided by 10. with rounding this would give a normal 2 defense. One result of applying figured stats for Power and Ego defense is that it would require retro-fitting any NND attacks with those powers as a defense, maybe just a minimum 10-15 points but then that jumps over to the realm of AVLD so it would be tricky in either case.

I don't disagree with your point that it is genre-ically "near invulnerability" - no issue with that.

 

I think your post, with the notions of fu, karma, chi', etc., point in a couple possible directions

- create a generic "unnatural" container and change it by genre book

- or just chuck the idea as such as everyone indeed has their own vision but DO do something more concrete to replace or augment "Power Defense" more appropriately

 

From many posts I grant that my "SD" or similar is probably not so good for HERO at large. But I cling tenaciously to my passion re the current state of Power Defense!

 

I like the CON/INT blend idea a lot, at least as a jumping off point.

 

Thanks for the insight, Hyperman. Again, my rep debt increases...

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Lack of Power coverage

 

Invulnerability is a very slippery thing. In the comics it should be called virtually invulnerable/indestructable since the 2 best examples of it: Captain America's Shield and Superman practically define it but both can and have been affected by very powerfull opponents. That should settle the issue since any player wanting to play a character more powerful than Superman or tougher that Cap's shield should be laughed at!

 

Diamond Lil from Alpha Flight. Her only real power is that she cannot be hurt.

 

At all.

 

Ever.

 

Unless you use some means to bypass her invulnerability, like a gas attack, or mental attacks. But until that point, forget about trying to damage her, because you won't and you can't.

 

Tell me again why you can't model this in Hero System?