Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I assume that if the DB was with Picks, it would cost 15/d6 because picks are Armor Piercing, or you could pro-rate the 10-pt DB to only provide 2 DC's. And likewise for weapons that have other Advantages.

 

If you allow wizards to have "Deadly Spellcasting," would you allow this:

 

2 1 pip RKA Fire (5 active), -1 worth of spell limitations (Gestures, Incantations, etc.)

2 1 pip RKA Ice (5 active), -1 worth of spell limitations (Gestures, Incantations, etc.)

2 1 pip RKA Lightning (5 active), -1 worth of spell limitations (Gestures, Incantations, etc.)

50 Deadly Spellcasting, +5d6 RKA, only with spells.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Since I cap Unmodified Deadly Blow at 1 Level per 75 Character Points rounded in the characters favor, to have those 5 levels of Deadly Blow the character would need to be a 338 point character.

 

I dont have a huge problem with a 338 pt character tossing a 5d6+1 Killing Attack, particularly considering that 50 points is almost 15% of the characters total points. Pretty one dimensional character, but not unmanagable.

 

YMMV

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Also, Only With Spells for an MU likely wouldnt be a -1/2, considering they provide their own. -1/4 at best, giving a cost of 60

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Well the wizard is a munched character I'd not allow that. That's just a bad character design (as far as concept is concerned, crafty as far as milking the system is concerned). If the wizard had a more apropriate package of fire spells, that he has been using for some time, I would concider allowing him the 10 pt DB with offensive fire spells.

 

Personally I don't prorate the advantages in refrence to the DB.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Quote by KS:

 

"Again, in general. If you seek to hard cap and limit what PC's are capable of, another system where PC's are inherently less capable and which has a more closed character design system would likely be easier for you as a GM."

 

To conclude that if a GM "caps" or "limits" what PC's are capable of (banning/limiting the Deadly Blow talent in this case) he or she may be better off with a less flexible system is a bit excessive IMHO. I don't believe that a GM who bans DB is trying to eliminate the flexibility of the system. I enjoy flexibility - but I also like game balance as well, and it is of my opinion that DB is unbalancing.

 

The concept of limiting/capping/banning DB is the same concept of having different rules for heroic and superheroic campaigns.

 

Here's my point: How many GM's trying to run a fantasy heroic-level campaign would let their players buy superhuman STR, or an unlimited amount of inherent or persistent Armor for their characters; how about Transform? Why not let any of those fantasy characters say they've been bitten by a radioactive spider, thereby giving them superpowers?

 

My guess is that most wouldn't, and it's not because GM's necessarily want a controlled/inflexible system, but because A) It's not consistent with the flavor of a heroic level campaign and more importantly It creates the potential of seriously unbalancing the campaign.

 

Let's say I made it so that a Major Transform spell in my campaign was so common that almost any mage could learn it. Now knowing this, it would almost force every player in the campaign to buy Power Defense (or some other similar countermeasure) for their characters just so they couldn't easily be turned into an insect. Using the same theory, it would force players to buy countermeasures for DB because it is such a potent talent.

 

I don't believe in creating an environment that forces characters to purchase unusual defenses mainly to counter the effects of ONE extremely potent talent/power. THIS in my opinion is promoting inflexibility, when every character has to buy countermeasures for a power/talent in order to have a chance of survival.

 

It is of my opinion that the DB talent isn't consistent with a High Fantasy Heroic campaign. To me it also makes combat too deadly and less dramatic. For a Low Fantasy realistic campaign? Perhaps, but it just ain't my style

[Gunrunner]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Just to clarify: I don't believe that allowing characters to have superhuman powers/talents are going to unbalance a campaign, but to allow only one or two of such in a heroic campaign may because of how potent they are compared to the more mundane talents/abilities characters would have access to. If it were a superheroic campaign where characters have access to a wide range of superhuman powers or talents, well that's a different story and in that case I'd be fine with it.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Another thing: Why would I buy extra DC's for my martial arts maneuvers if I could just buy Deady Blow??? Even at the 10-point level, +1d6 of Deadly Blow costs less than +1d6 of extra damage classes for martial arts, it is more versatile/less restricted, AND it raises the base damage where extra MA DC's don't. I guess one could argue that the cost of MA extra DC's is arbitrary, but an inequality does exist.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Deadly Blow for weapons doesn't add to the benefits given by maneuvers that don't do damage.

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Because Martial arts DC's work whenever you use martial arts, Deadly Blow only works in specific situations or W/specific weapons. I could see it being allowed to increase the base damage of the Killing Strike manuver.

 

As far as KS's comment about restricting character creation and development, I have to disagree with him that a simpler system is more appropriate. The beauty of hero is that GM's can tailor make their campaigns and include as many or as few of these options as they wish, to make their "perfect game".

 

By the way, does it seem like we may see a new round of those Hero Almanacs now with all of the options from previous books. Maybe in 4-5 years, before a 6th edition.

[Nuke]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I don't believe in creating an environment that forces characters to purchase unusual defenses mainly to counter the effects of ONE extremely potent talent/power. THIS in my opinion is promoting inflexibility' date=' when every character has to buy countermeasures for a power/talent in order to have a chance of survival.[/quote']

 

The only comment I'd say to this is that the defenses are only unusual because the power is restricted. If everybody knows ahead of time what is out there, I think the defenses will scale appropriately.

 

Another thing: Why would I buy extra DC's for my martial arts maneuvers if I could just buy Deady Blow??? Even at the 10-point level' date=' +1d6 of Deadly Blow costs less than +1d6 of extra damage classes for martial arts, it is more versatile/less restricted, AND it raises the base damage where extra MA DC's don't. I guess one could argue that the cost of MA extra DC's is arbitrary, but an inequality does exist.[/quote']

 

If I remember right, doesn't buying a DC for Martial Arts give you bonuses with ALL your Martial Arts abilities? In other words, you gain +5 STR for escapes, +1 DC with all your attacks, +5 STR on holding, etc...

 

I'm not too familiar with 5th edition, but I'd have to ask what is the difference between "deadly blow" for killing attacks and "hand attack" for normal attacks? Hand attack is gobs cheaper than buying strength outright to get damage?

 

-- Nuke

 

P.S. I admit that I am speaking from ignorance on the subject, so take my opinion for what it's worth...

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

You only need to buy unusual defenses if everyone in the game has this talent. This isn't apropriate for everyone. Even if it were, so one guy has +1d6 against Goblins, another guy has +1d6 with their rapier, and the sneaky character has a back stab that gives her +1d6 when she suprises an oponent.

 

Who needs special defenses to deal W/that. Even the Rapier option is powerful but not unmanagable. This would be a powerful team, but in general next to their wizard buddy who throwing around 3-4d6 energy RKA's, not all that gross.

 

As a PC I've ran into Kakita duelist who nailed me with 3 1/2d6K Iaijutsu strike, because of this talent. I've never felt the need to buy up my rPD, I just move first these days, and watch my DCV.

 

There will only be an arms race if you, the GM, allow there to be one.

[Turin]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I am just wondering in the low fantasy campaigns do people not wear armor? I always pictured low fantasy as being lots of mail and ring with occasional breast plate. That would be Defs of 5, 6 and 7. If someone is doing 2d6 +1 with their broad sword they are going to average 8 points per hit, it will still take 4 to 9 hits to deplete an average body. To me that seems like to much. I prefer it to be more lethal when a blow is struck and just have less attacks hitting. I think it encourages the use of block if you know that with one good hit you can be down. But that is just how I view low fantasy.

[Old Man]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Another thing: Why would I buy extra DC's for my martial arts maneuvers if I could just buy Deady Blow??? Even at the 10-point level' date=' +1d6 of Deadly Blow costs less than +1d6 of extra damage classes for martial arts, it is more versatile/less restricted, AND it raises the base damage where extra MA DC's don't. I guess one could argue that the cost of MA extra DC's is arbitrary, but an inequality does exist.[/quote']

 

I thought +1 DC for Martial Arts was only 4 pts?

[Turin]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I thought +1 DC for Martial Arts was only 4 pts?

 

It is, so for a full die it would cost 12 points which is more then any DB, but I think the flexibility of the DC for Martial Arts makes the cost worth it.

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Actually, wouldn't it be 24 pts to get increase a Killing attack by a whole d6. But those would also get you +6d6N to all martial arts, +30 str for disarms, grabs escapes ect ect ect...Far more versital and far more appropriate.

[Turin]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Actually' date=' wouldn't it be 24 pts to get increase a Killing attack by a whole d6. But those would also get you +6d6N to all martial arts, +30 str for disarms, grabs escapes ect ect ect...Far more versital and far more appropriate.[/quote']

 

Ah yes that is true, sorry in our house rules we just count DCs as DCs. But then again we like our combat deadly.

[rayoman]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Two, things. IMO, Heavy Warriors with high STR are better than a Rogue with the Deadly Blow talent in a straight up fight.

 

 

The Heavy Warrior gets a few things from his high STR.

 

1. Increase Carry Capacity

2. Increased Damage

3. Increase PD

4. Increased REC

5. Increased STUN

 

If you think Deadly Blow is too powerful then design a scenario every once and while that will showcase the Heavy Warrior's high STR and where Deadly Blow is useless. Stuck door? Heavy boulder to move? Quit focusing on combat as being the deciding factor of whether something is unbalanced.

 

 

Furthermore' date=' it just seems to trivialize heavy warriors with high STR. There doesn't seem much use in having a high STR if you can just buy Deadly Blow...QUOTE']

[rayoman]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Man, KS you are taking a beating for posting something that wasn't bad at all. I guess people nowadays are too sensitive.

 

I am sure that someone will take exception to what I just wrote. So what. I say what I mean and try to do so without any ambiguity. More people should try it especially politicians.

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Telling people to play another system is fairly insulting at a message board for their favorite system.

[rayoman]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Apparrently, I didn't take his comment that way. I took his comment as basically saying, "Why take a system that allows for flexibility and openess in character creation then put constraints to force players into creating archtypes that the GM wants to define? Instead, maybe you and your players would be better off playing a genre specific system that already had those archtypes defined." That is the nice long drawn out way. KS said it in a that wasn't insulting, IMO.

 

 

Telling people to play another system is fairly insulting at a message board for their favorite system.

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

That's good, I'm glad you're not offended by it, neither am I, the statement isn't directed at me, we're on the same side of this thread.

 

I disagree W/the sentiment however, that they should pick another system. Hero is an inclusive system, not an exclusive systems like most others. If a GM feels like limiting the characters at creation or anywhere else, to engender a particular feel or style of play, hero gives them that option. So I find the "pick a less open system" idea false.

[rayoman]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

This is only true if the GM allows it to be.

 

 

Hero is an inclusive system' date=' not an exclusive systems like most others. QUOTE']

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Telling people to play another system is fairly insulting at a message board for their favorite system.

Then its a good thing I never told someone to play another system.

 

I pointed out that if a GM is in the habit of restricting options a more closed system would be easier for them to run.

 

Restricting options runs counter to the HERO Systems open character design, so obviously if a GM prefers a more dialed down game there are other systems out there that will handle the dialing down for you.

 

Its just common sense, and not meant as an insult.

 

 

It seems like a lot of GM's obsess over every little thing, particularly for Fantasy HERO. Everyone can relax; the system is strong enough to handle more than many seem to think. I promise you, if you allow it's use Deadly Blow will not ruin your game. It might take a little adjustment, but its not as all-powerful as many seem to think it is.

 

The fact is, IME regardless of genre balanced characters traditionally do better in the HERO System than overly specialized characters. Those that spend too many points on Deadly Blow arent spending point in other areas. Unless the GM runs a carebear type game where players are never held accountable for their own decisions (including character focus), their lack of ability in other areas will cost them.

 

Yes, if a GM only runs a big hack-a-thon where the only thing that matters is kill or be killed, Deadly Blow and Combat Luck are huge. If the GM runs a more complex, full featured, and layered game DB and CL decline in general impact along with the prevalence of combat scenes. If every problem is solved by the edge of a blade, Deadly Blow can make characters too powerful. Otherwise, in a more typical blend of action, intrigue, and adventure DB and CL are less important.

 

 

 

Ive said it before, if as the GM you run a game where a character can get away with just being a combat monkey, then you will end up with a bunch of fairly homogenous combat monkey PC's, stacked with the most efficient blend of offense and defense. If your run a game where that kind of limited design just doesnt cut it, where a broad array of situations can occur requiring a similarly broad array of abilities to overcome, you will end up with more nuanced, well balanced characters with a melange of abilities. The GM determines what kind of character is the most "survivable" (in the Darwinistic sense) in their own campaign and will notice over time that the characters that do best in their campaigns will be the characters closest to the ideal.

 

 

I could take a character with no Deadly Blow into someone elses campaign and absolutely wreck it depending on how that game was focused. Alternately I could take a character with gobs of Deadly Blow into another campaign and have almost no impact, again dependant on how that game was structured.

 

And thats the reality of the HERO System. In other games where the system is fixed, and settings are built off of that fixed structure character design has much less meaning because the abilities of character are more limited or categorized. In the HERO System every GM's campaign, every GM's setting can be totally different. There are no fixed character designs.

 

A character that is god-like in one setting under one GM can be good-for-nothing in another setting with the same or a different GM.

 

Ultimately trying to limit and restrict character designs illustrates weaknesses in the campaign in question more than anything. If having too much Deadly Blow makes a character too powerful, then it is likely that the campaign in question relies to much on lethal combat and the ability to over excel in that arena makes a character too powerful. If the campaign were more well balanced, then the ability to truly excel in HtH combat would be counterbalanced by the relative unimportance of such ability in the bigger picture.

 

 

Also, another consideration of damage. Which is more powerful when facing a 8 BODY person with no resistant DEF? a 4D6 KA or a 8D6 KA?

 

The 8D6 obviously, but is it, in relative terms, TWICE as good as 4D6? No, not really. Once you get to a certain point of lethality, it doesnt matter if you kill someone a little bit or a lot a bit. In this case the average roll from both (14 and 28 respectively) will both either kill the target outright or leave them in a state where they will bleed out in under a minute. All the extra dice really do in this case is reduce the likelyhood of a bad roll leaving the target alive, since a minimum roll of 8 will still reduce the target to 0.

 

Thus the only real purpose of adding dice is a) reliability and overcoming defenses. Each D6 of Deadly Blow will overcome another 3 rDEF on average. Eventually a point is reached where extra dice of Deadly Blow just dont do anything tangible because a) reliablity has been attained and defenses are regularly overcome.

 

In the meantime before reaching that point there are increments of Deadly Blow which wont have a real measurable effect. If its going to take you two hits to put down an average opponent then adding Deadly Blow levels only makes a real difference if you can reduce the rate to one hit to put down an average opponent. Reducing it to 1.5 hits or 1.25 hits doesnt make much difference in the bigger picture.

 

 

Here are two example characters from actual play. Rogate and Saemund.

 

Rogate is a specialized character, focusing on swords. He has 2d6 Deadly Blow with Swords. He was extremely lethal with a sword in his hands, but he was a one pump chump. Every fight he would get dropped either right away, or soon thereafter. Spent the bulk of most encounters in a STUN coma, and died an ignomious death.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/PCs/RogateTurvoldsen.HTML

 

 

Saemund on the other hand is much more balanced. With a creditable offense and a strong defense, and with options beyond just "Strike with Sword", he was easily the most powerful and dangerous member of a 9 PC group. He routinely survived, though often gravely wounded, and never dropped in a fight. He has 1d6 Deadly Blow.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/PCs/SaemundMagnussun.HTML

 

Now, either of them could have had more Deadly Blow, but another die of Deadly Blow would not have made Rogate any better off. Saemund could have traded off one of his OL's for another level of Deadly Blow, but in the long run it wouldnt have made much difference, at the cost of having an OL to put towards anything. In fact, he probably would have been better off buying a 4th point of Speed rather than Deadly Blow in the bigger picture. Saemund with no Deadly Blow and a 4 SPD > Saemund with 1d6 Deadly Blow and a 3 SPD.

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

"Of course if you are so interested in locking down options and preventing players from being capable, Im not sure why you wouldnt just use some other genre-specific game system instead. "

 

You can see how this can be misconstrued.

 

They don't pick other systems becaus they like the way hero runs, they like hero. On the same token I don't know why they'd consider any of these options "unhero".

 

We all get to run these games with what we like and leave out what we don't like. Some people like narrowly defined character parameters, others like to let their PC's run wild, and it's all equally "Hero".

 

I think we've made enough of an arguement pro DB to explain the importants of it's inclusion. It's a valuable tool, and a fun one.

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

This is only true if the GM allows it to be.

 

 

Hero is an inclusive system' date=' not an exclusive systems like most others. QUOTE']

 

 

I mean this on a general scale, hero allows for a variety of play styles. Individual GM's can't change that basic idea.