Weak Supers who just needed better writers

[caris]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Actually, Cypher once learned a long dead completely alien language in a matter of minutes. I don't think it is unclear at all how well he would do with linguist aspects that he wasn't already familiar with.

He also was able to read body language, which made him vicious at the poker table.

Although the following was never shown, he could, in theory, do it.

He could tell when a spin kick was coming long before a fighter knew he was going to do it (because body language stems from the lizard brain which precedes the conscious mind). He could learn a martial art and "speak" it. He might have to learn to do a move (he was athletic due to constant training in the Danger Room, though naturally uncoordinated) but he'd know instantly when to use it.

He could read data layouts for troop movements and discern tactics from them.

I think you are missing my point. We know that Cypher can understand the languages and when physically appropriate make himself understood. What we don't know is how his accent would have sound. And how he would have dealt with things like rolling his rs. It isn't something that is really done in English, and something that often takes an English speaker learning Spanish some time to develop. It isn't really a part of understanding the language, but a skill necessary to sound proper in the language. I believe other languages have simillar "quirks" or lack certain "quirks" that appear in English. Would a French man mistake him for a native speaker or realize that he was novice American? Would he start with the accent that he first heard, but quickly expand to other regional accents?

 

We do seem to be on the same page though about his capabilities as a martial artist.

[Guest Witch Doctor]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

I think you are missing my point. We know that Cypher can understand the languages and when physically appropriate make himself understood. What we don't know is how his accent would have sound. And how he would have dealt with things like rolling his rs. It isn't something that is really done in English, and something that often takes an English speaker learning Spanish some time to develop. It isn't really a part of understanding the language, but a skill necessary to sound proper in the language. I believe other languages have simillar "quirks" or lack certain "quirks" that appear in English. Would a French man mistake him for a native speaker or realize that he was novice American? Would he start with the accent that he first heard, but quickly expand to other regional accents?

 

We do seem to be on the same page though about his capabilities as a martial artist.

 

I think the answer to your question was never directly addressed, but can be seen in the general tone of the X comics which seem to imply that such details are decided in favor of the mutant.

[garavello]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

I think you are missing my point. We know that Cypher can understand the languages and when physically appropriate make himself understood. What we don't know is how his accent would have sound. And how he would have dealt with things like rolling his rs. It isn't something that is really done in English, and something that often takes an English speaker learning Spanish some time to develop. It isn't really a part of understanding the language, but a skill necessary to sound proper in the language. I believe other languages have simillar "quirks" or lack certain "quirks" that appear in English. Would a French man mistake him for a native speaker or realize that he was novice American? Would he start with the accent that he first heard, but quickly expand to other regional accents?

 

We do seem to be on the same page though about his capabilities as a martial artist.

 

I recall in a X-Men adventure with the New Mutants that they were teleported to Paris and Cypher starts chatting with a French without problem.

 

I guess his power would be best described to "become native" in any language, spoken or not.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Wow... Cypher. Uh sure, if it wasn't for him, Marvel Earth would be infected with the techno-organic virus of Warlock's pappy, but basically Doug was what I might call a "skilled normal" whose mutant power basically allowed him to access a lot of skills.

 

Of course, until he merged with Warlock, he really demonstrated no superhuman physical attributes or abilities and while he repeatedly showed signs that he was quite brilliant, he wasn't on a par with, say, the Mad Thinker, Reed Richards or Forge. In comparison to the roster of the X-Men and the New Mutants of the time, he was basically a very vulnerable member and not surprising that he died (and just in time, Marvel's X-Books had already begun to get convoluted, plotwise).

 

Um, but while we're talking about un-powered characters, how about Garryn Bek of L.E.G.I.O.N. fame? The only alien in the bunch who had no appeciable superpowers (though he was pretty good at running away from fights) and a knack for getting into bad situations and miraculously surviving.

The real problem about characters like Cypher is that being very cerebral, their portrayal is highly limited to the general intelligence, knowledge, and imagination of the writer.

 

Sadly many comic book writers are not particularly notable for their ability to comprehend the ramifications of hyper-intelligence. To be fair, few are. It takes someone with very high intelligence to properly handle highly intelligent characters.

 

So Cypher died in a storyline involving a really lame Dr. Moreau character, a storyline which was so unnecessary and silly that as far as I know it was never referenced again except in conjunction with Cypher's death. Several orders of "LAME" magnitude involved.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Wow... Cypher. Uh sure, if it wasn't for him, Marvel Earth would be infected with the techno-organic virus of Warlock's pappy, but basically Doug was what I might call a "skilled normal" whose mutant power basically allowed him to access a lot of skills.

I tend to view him as essentially a normal with a built in analytic/translation computer in his skull, which is his mutant power.

 

Of course, until he merged with Warlock, he really demonstrated no superhuman physical attributes or abilities and while he repeatedly showed signs that he was quite brilliant, he wasn't on a par with, say, the Mad Thinker, Reed Richards or Forge. In comparison to the roster of the X-Men and the New Mutants of the time, he was basically a very vulnerable member and not surprising that he died (and just in time, Marvel's X-Books had already begun to get convoluted, plotwise).

His technical expertise was specialized primarily in computers, and there he was quite brilliant. In the area of hacking computers I would be quite willing to pit him against Reed Richards, Forge or Tony Stark. He wrote some very nasty viruses in his time, one of which turned up in Excalibur. As I made out in my postings, he lacked the scientific expertise to make use of his power to maximum effect.

 

One note M4H, I like your approach w/ Cypher, but I think you are discounting his ability for assimilation and cognizance.

 

He did puzzle out the Dyson Sphere's tech after all, and he did read and alter Magus's genetic code showing a capability for rapid assimilation, comprehension, and application.

Cypher already had expertise in electronics, which is why I think he was instantly able to understand a lot of alien tech. And Magus was techno-organic, which meant that he was essentially a robot with an organic base.

The real problem about characters like Cypher is that being very cerebral, their portrayal is highly limited to the general intelligence, knowledge, and imagination of the writer.

Cypher should have been introduced about five to ten years after he actually was. If he had been introduced now, he's be the Internet savvy resource of whatever teen mutant group he was in and writers wouldn't have any problems thinking of things to do with him.

[caris]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

I recall in a X-Men adventure with the New Mutants that they were teleported to Paris and Cypher starts chatting with a French without problem.

 

I guess his power would be best described to "become native" in any language, spoken or not.

I wasn't saying that he would be unintelligble, but it is unclear wether he automatically got Fluent with Native accent or not right off the bat.

[Lightray]

You know, Cypher wasn't the only New Mutant-type who could have used a better writer.

 

Wolvesbane could have become a potential Logan, but always seemed relegated to smelling things, and growling at enemies.

 

Mirage could originally create illusions of your greatest fear, and apparently had the potential to create illusions of anything. Over time she became a valkyrie and developed the abiilty to fire some kind of psi arrows (the focused totality of her psionic power, no doubt) -- and no longer does either of these. Now? She can create illusions of your greatest fear.

 

Jubliee and Boom-Boom were mostly played for laughs, but could have used some development in their powers to broaden their abilities. IIRC Boom-Boom became "Meltdown" in the Liefeld era and got more powerful, but if I think too much about that era I'll need to scrub my brain clear with caustic lye.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

I actually sat down once and worked out an alternate timeline where the New Mutants got a better writer than what they got after Claremont left the title. I actually worked on developing and augmenting the powers of the New Mutants, not through radiation accidents so much as the fact these were adolescent mutants and their powers were growing and developing over time. I'll go over my results:

 

Cannonball: It turns out that Sam's actual power is to generate a forcefiled that he can generate molecular bursts from. His normal flight mode just has a forcefiled around his feet (which is why his power doesn't burn his legs off), and he can extend the forcefield around the rest of him.

 

Later on, he learns to call up the forcefield by itself without the rocket and to be able to generate focused molecular bursts akin to his rocket as a ranged weapon. His forcefield also behaves as an exoskeleton of sorts (which is why he can lift massive objects as he's done at times). New code name: Impact

 

Sunspot: He learns to store power and release it in bursts. giving him bursts of strength that can exceed his regular strength. He also learns to tap into that power to accelerate his speed and to heal himself of damage. In time he even learns how to extend his aura outside of himself, creating an area of darkness which he alone can see inside (his teammates prefer he not do this around them). New code name: Eclipse

 

Magma: Learns to call up armor and weapons of rock, to summon up molten golems to fight for her. Also learns to manipulate and create a vast range of geological phenomena under the training of Havok and Polaris (remember? Mutant geologists)

 

Wolfsbane: As a mutant whose hybrid form has claws and enhanced senses, she gets handed over to Wolverine for training in how to fight. He also takes her off to the wilderness to train her in the ways of wolves. Her wolf and wolfgirl forms grow stronger over time, and she picks up a regeneration power along the way. New codename: Wolfen (not a bane to wolves at all)

 

Karma: She develops telepathic abilities. She's a focused telepath, a very powerful one, though she has the limitation she has to take over a mind in order to work with it. She can do things to minds even Charles Xavier would have difficulty with. In time she joins the staff of the school, using her powers to help mutants gain control of their powers and deal with damaged minds. Never decided what her new code name would be.

 

Magik: Illyana's power is actually not what everyone thinks it is. Her true mutant power is the ability to form spiritual bonds with things and people, to draw and share power with them. She bonded with Limbo once and her magical power and teleportation abilities are based on her tapping into Limbo. That Kitty can use the Soulsword is because Illyana bonded with Kitty. In time, the older Illyana goes back to her own timeline (the one where the X-Men died) and our Illyana comes back as a child.

 

Warlock: With help from Reed Richards and Moira MacTaggart is 'cured' of his transmode virus and learns other ways to feed and reproduce. With Cypher's training he overcomes his father and returns to his own race to set them on a better path (sorry, but he did not belong in that title).

 

Mirage: Dani becomes a shaman of sorts. She learns to delve into spirits to learn all sorts of things about people. And she learns to make temporary and permanent spiritual constructs. She can start fires by conjuring up a spirit of fire, and can even permanently create a fire spirit. She can alter and even destroy spirits as well. New code name: Spirit

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Quick note M4H, interesting list, but as far as Cannonball is concerned that is pretty much how his power worked already; he was nearly invulnerable when "blasting" (the term used for his rocket propulsion) due to the FF he generated, and his STR went up to REM (30) when "blasting".

 

Of course, as with all the NM's, other writers often forgot or were unaware of how their powers worked and thus CB would get knocked out by a rock and other similar gaffes.

 

Someone told me that in the post-Liefeld era he could generate the FF without flying, and could project blasts also, but then he also became a Mutant Highlander, and other similar nonsense, so I think its best if we all just pretend post-Liefeld never happened

 

 

Also, I like "Cannonball" as a nom de mutant. It suits him and has cool factor.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Of course, as with all the NM's, other writers often forgot or were unaware of how their powers worked and thus CB would get knocked out by a rock and other similar gaffes.

I think that's why I had some confusion. Okay, the main problem was that there wasn't a decent writer's bible and the continuity people were asleep at the wheel. But yes, the forcefield and blasts are the logical extrapolation of his powers.

Someone told me that in the post-Liefeld era he could generate the FF without flying, and could project blasts also, but then he also became a Mutant Highlander, and other similar nonsense, so I think its best if we all just pretend post-Liefeld never happened

 

Also, I like "Cannonball" as a nom de mutant. It suits him and has cool factor.

Well yes, but he doesn't have to fight as a human cannonball. He picks up other options as well.

 

But all the above is part of my divergent X-Men timeline which happens shortly before Fall of the Mutants, when things go to crap in the X-Titles as far as I'm concerned. No X-Force, none of the Goblin Queen mess and Inferno was not the best way to resolve the whole Magik storyline, and we have an Editor with the power to make Claremont (or someone) resolve dangling plotlines.

 

Maybe we need a "Non-Weak Supers who just needed better writers" storyline, except that I think that would pretty much include all of them at some point or another.

[Prometheus]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

I have to say that just about any character that can mimic the animal kingdom (Changeling, Vixen, Animal Man, etc.) tends to be underpowered when their writers aren't top notch. With animals like chameleons, ants, and ring worms out there, they should be able to put together an impressive power suite. Or have the ability to cycle through some impressive abilities at least.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Heres a couple of Cannonball links:

 

http://marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/cannonball.htm

 

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/canonball.htm

 

http://www.norse-man.net/Marvel/MSHX/MXE-1am.pdf

[Vorsch]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

I have to say that just about any character that can mimic the animal kingdom (Changeling' date=' Vixen, Animal Man, etc.) tends to be underpowered when their writers aren't top notch. With animals like chameleons, ants, and ring worms out there, they should be able to put together an impressive power suite. Or have the ability to cycle through some impressive abilities at least.[/quote']

 

Okay i can see chameleon (cough) but ring worm?

 

who admits to that!

 

i also think that they are limited to the animal kingdom not the insect kingdom, different enough in my view.

[Guest Witch Doctor]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

I actually sat down once and worked out an alternate timeline where the New Mutants got a better writer than what they got after Claremont left the title. I actually worked on developing and augmenting the powers of the New Mutants, not through radiation accidents so much as the fact these were adolescent mutants and their powers were growing and developing over time. I'll go over my results:

 

I thought that was a cool idea and, so, I tried my own hand at it.

 

Cannonball: Never really develops powers beyond “blastingâ€. Much like Cyclops, he compensates by becoming a remarkable leader and tactician. He does, however, change his name to Impulse

 

Sunspot: As his powers develop, he learns to absorb not just solar radiation, but any form of energy. Further, he develops the inability to turn it off. This means that loud noises become whispers and lights dim in his presence. However, his life force is amplified by this constant absorption of energy and it is he who becomes immortal. Once a boisterous personality, he becomes somewhat melancholy. His skin is hard, but cold to the touch and he remains superhumanly strong. He has a permanent dark aura around him. He becomes Burnout

 

Wolfsbane: In early comic issues, she had a healing factor like Logan’s. This fact is reiterated. She feels compelled to go to Gehenna and stays there for a while working as a member of the mutant underground. Upon her return, she has a decided motherly streak, but bitches can and will kill to protect their young. Most of the time, though, she is matronly and the archetypal female in the same way that Logan is the archetypal male. Her code name is Bloodmoon.

 

Karma: Finally killed in Asia, Karma returns to the New Mutants. This, of course, raises some questions. Much of what happened to her in Asia is unknown – even to her. However, she has a need to believe that the world can be a better place. It has to be better than the past, else wise there is no use fighting. Over time, she learns that her mutant power causes her the power to take up permanent residence in someone else’s body when her body dies (once she does so, the new body slowly changes form to match her original one). This means that she can essentially reincarnate over and over again. It also means that most every time she does so, an innocent dies.

[Lightray]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

With animals like ... ring worms

psst. Ring worm = fungus, not an animal.

 

edit: oh, heck. if i'm being pedantic might as well go all the way. apologies to all.

 

She feels compelled to go to Gehenna

Gehenna = term for "Hell" in Jewish (i think) theology

Genosha = mutant Madagascar in Marvel comics

 

Anyway, Wolvesbane had Liefeld and Simonson writing for her. She wouldn't feel compelled to go to Hell -- she was already there.

[Lupus]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Someone told me that in the post-Liefeld era he could generate the FF without flying, and could project blasts also, but then he also became a Mutant Highlander, and other similar nonsense, so I think its best if we all just pretend post-Liefeld never happened

 

 

Also, I like "Cannonball" as a nom de mutant. It suits him and has cool factor.

Yeah, Liefeld only lasted a dozen issues into X-Force. Fabian Nicieza wrote it after that. He had Sam really push his power. He could generate the blast field while stationary, extend it out to protect others, focus it around his fist for a punch, or even do short-ranged blasts. Finally, he learned how to (as a held action block defence) absorb and redirect the force from incoming blows and hit back with it. He only did that once that I saw.

 

I was generally quite happy with how he went, post-Liefeld. He found some writers who actually respected him.

 

(Oh, as for the mutant highlander thing, I think that was revealed to be some kinda mistake. I forget.)

 

Someone else mentioned Boom-Boom/Meltdown... in the Liefeld era, she got renamed Boomer, and used wrist-launchers to shoot out her plasma balls. Post-Liefeld, she finally grew up, and renamed herself Meltdown. Started really getting the hang of her powers. I quite liked that powerset. She finally actually seemed like a human being.

 

Wolfsbane: From what I remember, she didn't get more powerful, but got more control over it. After being turned into a Genoshan mutate, she started experimenting with gradiating the shifting power. once she was cured, she could turn to just about any stage of wolfiness along a finely-gradiated spectrum. She also pulled herself together and got out of the shadow of Reverend Craig - even went in and slapped him around, verbally. I'd consider her very well-balanced now. 'Course, that didn't stop some writers from still writing her like a little girl, even after she was clearly shown to have grown up into quite a strong young woman. Sigh.

 

Moonstar: Well, for a while there, she had the ability to not only create illusions, but real objects. O_O That was kinda silly, I personally think. I'm glad they got rid of it. I have no idea what she's doing at the moment.

[Prometheus]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

psst. Ring worm = fungus' date=' not an animal.[/quote']

 

Oops, I meant flatworm. With a little dramatic license, a character can gain some duplication from sharp objects.

[Lightray]

Moonstar: Well' date=' for a while there, she had the ability to not only create illusions, but real objects. O_O That was kinda silly, I personally think. I'm glad they got rid of it. I have no idea what she's doing at the moment.[/quote']

She's teaching at the Xavier Academy. She was the central original New Mutant in the recent New Mutants comic, which has now become New X-Men. She's apparently back to her original power set, but is much more mature.

 

Karma is also there, as the librarian. Also the same power set, still taking care of her younger brother and sister.

 

And Rahne showed up, in a sort of rebellious slut phase, having lost her powers due to some backstory I don't know about. She regained them, went berserk, and that plotline's still being resolved.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Oops' date=' I meant flatworm. With a little dramatic license, a character can gain some duplication from sharp objects.[/quote']

 

Didn't that happen in an issue of Animal Man (or did he go with an amoeba and avoid the slashing issue)? A starfish woud work too.

[BarryB]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

The annoying part about Cypher was that he was treated as such a wuss for having a wimpy mutant power when at the same time over in the X-Men title' date=' Storm was the X-Men leader even when her powers were neutralized. And there were dozens of superheroes in the Marvel universe who don't have any inherent powers who were not having any problems in the respect area. There was this inherent double standard that really nailed Cypher to the wall.[/quote']

 

Cypher just didn't have the personalit for leadership. People liked him, even loved him, but they didn't instinctively follow him, for whatever reason.

 

We all know people like that. Personally, I think it could be an interesting story. Instead of someone with few or no powers being a great leader, how about the other way around. Someone with Superman-level powers who feels an obligation to try to be a great leader because of the powers, but who just isn't up to the task. Not because of some great tragic flaw or lack of intelligence or wisdom. But just because he or she doesn't have the spark of leadership.

 

Or maybe it would be pretty boring to read about that.

[GTAgamemaster]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Okay I just have to ask.. (because I have just been enjoying this thread so much)

 

Does anyone else believe that Forge is just dripping with untapped potential. I mean you have a mutant who can invent anything that he has a need for. It takes time but he will solve the problem.

 

I mean that is a scary "Plot Device" power especially when you combine it with the tech he has had available to him for many years.

 

Any thoughts?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

Another one I was always annoyed with was Chemical King from the LSH. He could control the rate of any chemical reaction. He was always slowing down the metabolic reactions of people' date=' but damn near [i']everything[/i] is a chemical reaction -- he could have been amazing.

 

Increase corrosion? check. Stop most electrical cells (batteries)? check. Cause the sun to go nova? check.

The sun isn't powered by chemical reactions, it's powered by nuclear reactions...so causing the sun to go nova isn't in CK's portfolio. (And for that matter, we don't even know if he could affect something as large as the core of the sun in any case.)

[Lightray]

The sun isn't powered by chemical reactions' date=' it's powered by nuclear reactions...so causing the sun to go nova isn't in CK's portfolio. (And for that matter, we don't even know if he could affect something as large as the core of the sun in any case.)[/quote']

I assure you that nuclear reactions are, in fact, chemical reactions. Fission (and fusion, for that matter) are relatively simple reactions when you look at what's going on. In fact, the reaction is often favored, because it's producing a more stable isotope. Granted, the energy necessary to catalyze the reaction is quite high (fortunately), and the conditions necessary to sustain it are not common.

 

Biological activity is also a chemical reaction. Lots and lots of things non-chemists don't think are chemical reactions in fact ARE. That was kind of the problem with Chemical King -- the writers didn't understand what was and wasn't chemistry. Even then the writers weren't very consistent -- even in his last issue Chemical King was affecting some kind of energy force field globe around [bad Guy Whose Name I've Forgotten].

 

But I'll grant you that we didn't know the extent of his powers.

[Lupus]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

She's teaching at the Xavier Academy. She was the central original New Mutant in the recent New Mutants comic, which has now become New X-Men. She's apparently back to her original power set, but is much more mature.

 

Karma is also there, as the librarian. Also the same power set, still taking care of her younger brother and sister.

 

And Rahne showed up, in a sort of rebellious slut phase, having lost her powers due to some backstory I don't know about. She regained them, went berserk, and that plotline's still being resolved.

Good to hear about Dani and Karma.

 

But... gah. Had that writer actually READ Excalibur? O_o That totally doesn't track with the development she'd been going through. She got to terms with her past. Why does she need to rebel? Sounds more like someone going 'hey, here's this repressed little innocent girl, let's make her into a slut. It'll make us look cool and edgy.'

 

Maybe I should cross-post this to the 'why I stopped reading comics' thread, 'cause that attitude basically sums it up.

 

Thanks for the news. Not ranting at you. Sorry.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Weak Supers who just needed better writers

 

What? They turned Rahne/Wolfsbane into a slut? Great, and she was one of the very few mutant characters ia ctually /liked/ too.

 

Man, am I ever glad I stopped reading anything X-drek related after the whole 'Rahne gets turned into a giant she-wolf in Genosha' line. (Though I liked her in that one; she could've gone back to Asgard and shacked up with Fenrir; Lord knows she was BIG enough by then!)