Spiderman Vs. Firelord

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Wow! For a thread that was supposed to have been a quickie, one off question this thing has really gotten out of control...so I thought I'd add some more fuel to the Firelord.

 

In building characters I have to agree with mitch. I look for the "averages", things that seem to be consistent in their appearances and build from there giving a little room for persoanal artistic interpretation (ie, if Spidey is DEX 36 then would Quicksilver be DEX 38 or DEX 30 with +8 Lightning Reflexes. Is he actually more agile than Spidey or does he just have enhanced reflexes). Those are the tricky call in characters. Beyond looking for averages, I go back to first appearances when possible to see what the author's original vision for the Character was since that tends to be a pretty good guide post on how to proceed.

 

As to the debate (and why it is a debate I'm not realy sure) I think that absolutely the only thing that can explain Spidey winning is that the author needed him to. That's it. Even the least of Glactus's heralds (and the bottom end is filling up quickly) like Red Shift and the dopey guy from Stormbreaker have SPDs and DEXs that are cosmic in scope. Personally, I don't think it's stretch to start them at about SPD 8 DEX 40 and go from there. I'd probably put Firelord, who seems more nimble than your average herald (although nowhere near the Surfer's league) around SPD 9 DEX 43. That would give him a natural OCV/DCV of 14. Conversely, as opposed to some of the other hearlds, I don't think there's much eveidence to give him skill levels (maybe with flight) so his basic OCV/DCV would be all he had to work with. If Spidey's DEX 36 with 3 or 4 levels with h to h combat then he could, conceivably at least, keep Firelord busy for a while. Ultimately though, Spidey would tire, since heralds really don't and Firelord would tag him. From there it would quickly be game over.

 

Vigil

The problem I have with your assessment is the same problem I have with MitchellS's assessment. Your idea of "average". Let's face it. That's not what you are doing. What you are doing is disregarding a host, not a few, but a host of stories where Spiderman takes on folks who are much stronger than him or capable of massive destructive acts and who are more than bulletproof and yet they have tremendous difficulty with Spiderman. This isn't an extreme. It's a consistent theme of what happens when those guys tangle with Spiderman.

 

Spiderman isn't bulletproof but he is extremely tough and extremely resourceful. He is described as being time and again as more powerful than he realizes. This is consistent with the character and NOT one author's interpretation.

[Ndreare]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Well lets look at some of the bad guys with invulnerability that Spidey fights.

 

Tombstone

Rhino

Scorpian

Venom

Thing (not a bad guy but...)

 

All these people have very high PD (I would put none of them below 28 PD) and Spidey manages to hurt them with his punch. I would guess that Spidey punches harder than bullets hit because most of these guys are bullet proof.

 

But then again Spidey did only wiun because it was needed. If we were reeding a comic with Firelord Herold of galactus on the cover we all know Spidey would have lost.

 

That is how comics work.

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Well lets look at some of the bad guys with invulnerability that Spidey fights.

 

Tombstone

Rhino

Scorpian

Venom

Thing (not a bad guy but...)

 

All these people have very high PD (I would put none of them below 28 PD) and Spidey manages to hurt them with his punch. I would guess that Spidey punches harder than bullets hit because most of these guys are bullet proof.

 

But then again Spidey did only wiun because it was needed. If we were reeding a comic with Firelord Herold of galactus on the cover we all know Spidey would have lost.

 

That is how comics work.

I might buy that if we weren't talking about Spiderman. They didn't tend to make Spiderman take the fall in his or someone else's title, at least in my reading experience.

[lemming]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

I might buy that if we weren't talking about Spiderman. They didn't tend to make Spiderman take the fall in his or someone else's title' date=' at least in my reading experience.[/quote']

Well, he gets a bias since his face is in the lower corner of each Marvel comic.

 

He does have a massive reserve of power that when he uses it, can be quite formidible. When I read the comic when it came out, it was a little far reaching, but I think it was feasible.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

The problem I have with your assessment is the same problem I have with MitchellS's assessment. Your idea of "average". Let's face it. That's not what you are doing. What you are doing is disregarding a host' date=' not a few, but a host of stories where Spiderman takes on folks who are much stronger than him or capable of massive destructive acts and who are more than bulletproof and yet they have tremendous difficulty with Spiderman. [/quote']

 

As well, your assessment of the Heralds of Galactus having substantially greater DEX and SPD than Spidey not only flies in the face of every story where Spidey encounteres such a character (or anyone who has evre faced off against one), it defies all logic in the MU.

 

The Thing can slug the Silver Surfer (who you put as way higher than Firelord's "meager" 40 DEX). Thor and Hercules can pound on Firelord, and match him blow for blow (are they also DEX 35+, SPD 8-9?). The Hulk has no difficulty connecting with Heralds of Galactus. Yet all of these characters have been shown to have extreme difficulty coping with Spidey's agility.

[Vigil]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

As I said, I think the difference is that Firelord has raw DEX while Spidey (whose DEX is also very high) and Thor, Hercules, etc have levels to offset the difference. It doesn't have to be so simplistic as straight DEX = OCV/DCV. Thor was mentioned. I think THor is probably around SPD 6 DEX 24, so OCV/DCV 8.

 

However, I'm also one of those people who happens to think that Thor is one of the most acomplished fighters in the MU (and yes, i think he could take Superman). So, in my charting of Thor (off the cuff from what I've seen) I'd give him something like 5 Levels with hand to hand combat, 5 Levels with Mjolnir, and 3 Levels with All Combat (the last one demonstrates his ability to harden his resolve against mentalists as well as his ability to push himself in other forms of combat). So, if Thor went all in he'd have an OCV 16 (plus other mods if applicable) vs Firelord's "static" OCV/DCV 14. I don't see that as unbalanced.

 

It's always been my perception that th Heralds of Galactus are extraordinary even in comparison with other superheroes so, hence, I tend to think of them as having proportionately higher base stats. The other side of the coin is that few of the heralds seem to have devolped any sort of real combat ability beyond their overwhelming power. I'd give the Surfer and Morg and Terrax levels of some sort but Firelord, Nova and Air Walker never seem to have demonstrated much "skill" with combat beyond being powerhouses.

 

So, yes, maybe the stats I ascribed (and those are hardly monloithic either since I've never written up any of the herlads) seem high but I think that within the continuum of the MU they do make sense.

 

Yet another way to look at the Spidey/Firelord brawl is that, given what's been said about Firelord not wanting to devastate NY to tag Spidey, maybe Firelord was not only not using his full power...maybe he wasn't using his full DEX/OCV/DCV. That may be possible also. The parallels are characters like Cyclops and Wonder Man both of whom tended to restrain themselves regularly for one reason or another.

 

Anyhoo, that's my thoughts. I may be "wrong" (if that's possible in something so subjective) or it may be that the Herlads of galactus should eb looked at in an entirely different way from virutally any other MU characters. I think the latter view preserves the heralds as absolutely singular and "cosmic" characters...just the way Galactus intended.

 

Vigil

[Watchdog]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

OCV 8 + 5 levels HTH + 5 levels w Mjolnir + 3 all combat levels = 21 OCV.

 

So even if you give Spidey a 14 DCV, you're saying Thor will miss Spidey one time in 216 if Spidey's not actively dodging - the same precentage of time he'll miss Aunt May.

 

Is Spidey Dodging, giving him a DCV of 17? Thor will still hit him 95.4% of the time. Martial dodge? 83.8%.

 

Imo, those percentages just don't jibe with what I've read in hundreds of Spider-man comics. Spidey simply isn't that easy to hit, even if the god of Thunder is doing the hitting. YMMV

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

As I said, I think the difference is that Firelord has raw DEX while Spidey (whose DEX is also very high) and Thor, Hercules, etc have levels to offset the difference. It doesn't have to be so simplistic as straight DEX = OCV/DCV. Thor was mentioned. I think THor is probably around SPD 6 DEX 24, so OCV/DCV 8.

 

However, I'm also one of those people who happens to think that Thor is one of the most acomplished fighters in the MU (and yes, i think he could take Superman). So, in my charting of Thor (off the cuff from what I've seen) I'd give him something like 5 Levels with hand to hand combat, 5 Levels with Mjolnir, and 3 Levels with All Combat (the last one demonstrates his ability to harden his resolve against mentalists as well as his ability to push himself in other forms of combat). So, if Thor went all in he'd have an OCV 16 (plus other mods if applicable) vs Firelord's "static" OCV/DCV 14. I don't see that as unbalanced.

 

As Watchdog points out, if Thor has no trouble hitting your 40 DEX Firelord, he should have little difficultyu hitting your lower DEX Spiderman. Alternatively, if you buy a bunch of DCV levels for Spidey to explain why it's so hard for Thor to hit him, then it should be even harder for Firelord to hit him.

 

And even Captain America, who is higher DEX than Thor, IMO, and is likely the most accomplished HTH fighter in the MU - ie more levels than Thor - has trouble hitting Spidey.

 

Yet another way to look at the Spidey/Firelord brawl is that' date=' given what's been said about Firelord not wanting to devastate NY to tag Spidey, maybe Firelord was not only not using his full power...maybe he wasn't using his full DEX/OCV/DCV. That may be possible also. The parallels are characters like Cyclops and Wonder Man both of whom tended to restrain themselves regularly for one reason or another.[/quote']

 

I don't associate any of those characters with restraining their chances of hitting, only the damage they will inflict.

[Vigil]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

You're right, I miscalculated. I was thinking of Mjolnir as Ranged Combat Levels as a way to express Thor being equally cpaable in both h to h and ranged combat. Now, given that if he's equally capable with both but won't be using both at once, I'm thinking this may look more proper:

 

DEX 24

SPD 6

+ 5 Levels with All Combat

+ 2 Overall Levels (he's been around a long time)

 

I think that looks a little bit better.

 

It still may make sense to include levels with Mjolnir seperately but the above seems pretty solid and balanced.

 

Now let's postulate a bare bones Spidey (again, completely off the cuff)

 

DEX 36

SPD 8

+ 3 levels with h to h combat

 

 

So, Thor maxes out 15 OCV without other bonuses for manuevers, etc while Spidey is capable of 15 DCV plus up to +5 DCV if his Spidey Sense kicks in and/or he Martial Dodges. So Thor up to 15 max, Spidey up to 20 DCV max without other bonuses. I think that makes sense. Thor (or anyone short of Quicksilver or a Herald of Galactus) won't hit Spidey too often when Spidey's focussing on not being hit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

So' date=' Thor maxes out 15 OCV without other bonuses for manuevers, etc while Spidey is capable of 15 DCV plus up to +5 DCV if his Spidey Sense kicks in and/or he Martial Dodges. So Thor up to 15 max, Spidey up to 20 DCV max without other bonuses. I think that makes sense. Thor (or anyone short of Quicksilver or a Herald of Galactus) won't hit Spidey too often when Spidey's focussing on not being hit.[/quote']

 

And your 40 DEX Firelord still can't hit Spidey, precisely as portrayed in the issues in question (13 OCV vs 20 DCV means a 4 or less).

[Vigil]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

True, that's with the proviso that Spidey (as I wrote him) is concentrating exclusively on not being hit. I think that's a realistic scenario...that Spidey can avoid Firelord. The unrealistic scenario is assuming in any way shape or form that Spidey can defeat Firelord. Beyond writer's fiat (and it's the extreme of that) there's simply no way anyone with any knowledge of the genre would relaistically support the idea of Spidey beating Firelord. Avoiding him yes. Beating him, no way in hell. In the comsimc scheme of thing given who the two of them are, the aforementioned Aunt May is just as likely to deafet Firelord as Spidey is. For Spidey to do so means the writer is seriously lame and without credible ideas and the story should be relegated to the "imaginary story" file. That's all I'm saying.

 

Vigil

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

True, that's with the proviso that Spidey (as I wrote him) is concentrating exclusively on not being hit. I think that's a realistic scenario...that Spidey can avoid Firelord. The unrealistic scenario is assuming in any way shape or form that Spidey can defeat Firelord. Beyond writer's fiat (and it's the extreme of that) there's simply no way anyone with any knowledge of the genre would relaistically support the idea of Spidey beating Firelord. Avoiding him yes. Beating him, no way in hell. In the comsimc scheme of thing given who the two of them are, the aforementioned Aunt May is just as likely to deafet Firelord as Spidey is. For Spidey to do so means the writer is seriously lame and without credible ideas and the story should be relegated to the "imaginary story" file. That's all I'm saying.

 

Vigil

 

i think you built spidey wrong then

 

part of his thing is dodging and attacking at the saem time so he should be able to iht firelord and keep his dcv real high

 

spidey

str 50 he can lift 10 tons above his head and so he needs it to be this high

dex 35 hes really fast but can still be hit if his dangersense doesnt work

con 33 hes healthier and tougher than normal peopple

spd 8

pd 20

ed 20

3 levels combat luck hes really hard to hurt even though its not 'bulletprofness"

25% damage reduction cause you ddnt hit him good

4 lvls with dcv on his dangersenes

2 or 3 overall levels (10 pts) cause hes a great hero

martial arts

 

so with his dangersenses he can go up to a 23 dcv if he dodges [flying dodge) or a 19 if he doesnt and tries to hit firelord witha 14d6 offensive strike that can wear firelord down and maybe he has find weekness too

[Watchdog]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

True, that's with the proviso that Spidey (as I wrote him) is concentrating exclusively on not being hit. I think that's a realistic scenario...that Spidey can avoid Firelord. The unrealistic scenario is assuming in any way shape or form that Spidey can defeat Firelord. Beyond writer's fiat (and it's the extreme of that) there's simply no way anyone with any knowledge of the genre would relaistically support the idea of Spidey beating Firelord. Avoiding him yes. Beating him, no way in hell. In the comsimc scheme of thing given who the two of them are, the aforementioned Aunt May is just as likely to deafet Firelord as Spidey is. For Spidey to do so means the writer is seriously lame and without credible ideas and the story should be relegated to the "imaginary story" file. That's all I'm saying.

 

Vigil

 

If Firelord indeed has a 43 DEX and a 9 SPD, I might agree with you. But you appear to be an army of one making that argument. Even those on this thread who agree with you that Spiderman would never beat Firelord are doing so on the basis of the damage Firelord can deal out and his inherent toughness - not because he's more agile and quicker than Spidey.

 

I could see giving Silver Surfer numbers like that, but no other herald has proven to be as powerful - and AFAIK no other herald has shown to be anywhere close to Surfer in speed and agility. Might I ask what Firelord has shown you to make you believe he merits stats that high in those characteristics? Do his opponents often miss him, or just fail to hurt him?

 

When I look at Firelord, I fail to see any display of amazing DEX or SPD. Why would he? He has an area effect attack that can apparently vaporize several city blocks. He's grossly overconfident, and we agree he doesn't spend a lot of time/xp on combat skill levels. Do you have a better argument for giving him a 43 DEX than that he's obviously built on a lot of points?

 

If he's given Thor a tough fight, and has no CSLs, I could see putting Firelord's DEX as high 29-30. The SPD? I think 6 is as far as I'd go. Does he really get that many more attacks than Thor?

 

So when I give him those stats, a loss against Spidey becomes plausible when Firelord isn't using his ten block area affect inferno. Spidey dodges on phases where Firelord can attack, which gives Spidey two free shots at him a turn (assuming an 8 SPD for Spidey). If he can hurt him even a little bit - enough STUN to overcome his defenses and recovery each turn - he can wear him down if Firelord doesn't get a very lucky shot in.

 

But then, that's just me. Someone with no knowledge of the genre who is seriously lame and without credible ideas.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

True, that's with the proviso that Spidey (as I wrote him) is concentrating exclusively on not being hit. I think that's a realistic scenario...that Spidey can avoid Firelord. The unrealistic scenario is assuming in any way shape or form that Spidey can defeat Firelord. Beyond writer's fiat (and it's the extreme of that) there's simply no way anyone with any knowledge of the genre would relaistically support the idea of Spidey beating Firelord. Avoiding him yes. Beating him, no way in hell. In the comsimc scheme of thing given who the two of them are, the aforementioned Aunt May is just as likely to deafet Firelord as Spidey is. For Spidey to do so means the writer is seriously lame and without credible ideas and the story should be relegated to the "imaginary story" file. That's all I'm saying.

 

Vigil

 

I think there are a lot of people posting to this thread who do not disagree with Spidey's defeat of Firelord and have at least some "knowledge of the genre". I expect most (all!) of these, and many of those who feel the scenario was wholly implausible would also challenge the assertion that Firelord's DEX and Speed are equal to, or even superior to Spider Man's.

 

I've yet to see anyone agree with your statements...

 

This overwhelming majority of posters, none of whom I would classify as lacking "any knowledge of the genre", may indicate the lack of knowledge falls somewhere other than you have assumed?

[shaunclinton]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Okay, let's settle a few points. Firelord is tough, eh? He can take hits from the likes of Thor and Thing, although they do hurt... I think we agree on this.

 

Spider-man STR 45.

Deny at your peril that he has minimum +10 STR when angry, etc.

We all know Spidey has a distinctive fighting style, something Hero calls Martial Arts which everyone here knows includes Passing Strike.

He can push just like everyone else to get another +10 STR.

Spidey has, I'm sure you'll all agree, a minimum of 30" Swinging.

With his DEX of 36 or thereabouts, for OCV 12.

He has a minimum 2 levels HTH (possibly Overall, but whatever!)

 

So when he's pissed off he can throw 20d6 at someone with an OCV of 14.

And that's minimum. Min-i-mum!!! Argh!!! My new favourite word.

 

Which equates to 100 STR. Which, funnily enough, is in the ball-park of Thing, Thor, Hulk, etc.

 

Just 'cause Spidey doesn't do it all the time doesn't mean he can't.

 

The SPD 9 Firelord is pulled out of someones butt. I've never seen anything in any comic to even remotely suggest that. It's totally cooked up. It's like saying Galactus is cosmically powerful, he must have SPD 12. Maybe he does, but there's no evidence for it, and if there's no evidence for it then it is not valid.

 

Spidey has hurt tougher opponents consistently and on a regular basis. How much HERO damage you define as 'hurt' will clearly vary. I'd say that a not insignificant amount of STUN qualifies.

 

Tombstone (post upgrade) is unphased by an exploding gas main collapsing a building on him... but Spidey full pelt move by/thru? He's out like a light.

 

Hulk, doesn't feel too many of Spidey's blows, Spidey gets his attention and gets him mad when he leaps on his back and flips him into the concrete hard. That had to hurt.

 

Rhino, who is sub-Hulk class brick, but not by much... has consistently been hurt by Spider-man time and time again. He too can survive collapsing buildings and all that sort of thing.

 

Carnage is hard to define, but has Venom++ defences and is in the mini-brick class... Spidey can clearly hurt him and has done consistently over a long period of time.

 

If I go up and check through my comics collection just now I'm sure I can find far more than the 3 examples that people seem to accept makes it 'legit' of Spidey cutting loose with far, far more power than he uses day to day. So even if you disregard the passing strike (because he doesn't actually use this move against Firelord) he should be able to get his damage up in the 14-18d6 region without too much difficulty.

 

That, based on all available evidence would suggest to me that Spidey can, has, and could again take down Firelord.

[lemming]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Ooooo! I know! Spiderman has a huge VPP and when he becomes unhittable he's using either that Desolid schtick or puts up a 100/100 FF with special effects, unhittable. (And some KB resist)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

I'm coming in on the end of this, so I'm sure that someone else mentioned it before now, but I was reading Spider-Man when he beat up Firelord, and the only reason he could do it was because he had the Omni-Power (at least, I think that's what it was called -- it was what, 20 years ago?). Spider was doing all kinds of crazy things with his powers (and even his webbing) for the span of several issues. Even he thought it was bizarre, until he discovered the Omni-Power thing.

 

(The Omni-Power, if I recall correctly, was this semi-sentient Power Pool that would give itself to people for short periods of time so that they could overcome otherwise unbeatable odds in the name of justice, or something like that. That's the first and last time I ever ran across it in a comic.)

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

I'm coming in on the end of this, so I'm sure that someone else mentioned it before now, but I was reading Spider-Man when he beat up Firelord, and the only reason he could do it was because he had the Omni-Power (at least, I think that's what it was called -- it was what, 20 years ago?). Spider was doing all kinds of crazy things with his powers (and even his webbing) for the span of several issues. Even he thought it was bizarre, until he discovered the Omni-Power thing.

 

(The Omni-Power, if I recall correctly, was this semi-sentient Power Pool that would give itself to people for short periods of time so that they could overcome otherwise unbeatable odds in the name of justice, or something like that. That's the first and last time I ever ran across it in a comic.)

Do you mean the Uni-Power?

[shaunclinton]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Spider-man didn't have any power boost when he took on Firelord, he was plain old Spidey. I've got the issues in front of me just now!

 

You're thinking of the issues around about the time of Acts of Vengeance when Spidey had all the extra powers and was tossing The Hulk and Dragon Man about. Can't remember the exact time disparity, but I think it was some five years or so later anyway.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Do you mean the Uni-Power?

 

Could be. It was 20 years ago, and I stopped reading Spider-Man shortly after that. Actually, I stopped reading it when they screwed up his cool new costume, the one he got during the Secret Wars. They made it some kind of idiotic villain (and another one, and another one...). The comic went downhill fast after that. But that's a rant for another thread, I'm sure.

 

edit:

Actually, I'm certain that you are right. Uni-Power. That's it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Spider-man didn't have any power boost when he took on Firelord' date=' he was plain old Spidey. I've got the issues in front of me just now![/quote']

 

He didn't know he had the Uni-Power at that point. He had it for several issues before he realized why he was suddenly able to do all these crazy new things (like being able to levitate collapsed buildings with his webbing). I don't recall why he got the Uni-Power, or when he lost it it (those two things were related -- he lost it once he'd used it for whatever reason he was meant to have it), but he definitely had it when he beat Firelord. There's no question at all about that.

[MitchellS]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

He didn't know he had the Uni-Power at that point. He had it for several issues before he realized why he was suddenly able to do all these crazy new things (like being able to levitate collapsed buildings with his webbing). I don't recall why he got the Uni-Power' date=' or when he lost it it (those two things were related -- he lost it once he'd used it for whatever reason he was meant to have it), but he definitely had it when he beat Firelord. There's no question at all about that.[/quote']

The Captain Universe/Uni-power manifested around ASM #327. That was long after the Firelord battle.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Whatever. I suppose I could be mistaken, but until I have comics in front of me that prove otherwise, I'll stick by what I know I read. You guys feel free to keep arguing about it if that makes you happy.

[MitchellS]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Whatever. I suppose I could be mistaken' date=' but until I have comics in front of me that prove otherwise, I'll stick by what I know I read. You guys feel free to keep arguing about it if that makes you happy. [/quote']

Well you can go and read the comics, you can do a google search online, or you can go and ask on one of the Spidey message boards. The Firelord battle was #269-270. The Captain Universe material was #327-328 [basically 5 years later].

[Watchdog]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Whatever. I suppose I could be mistaken, but until I have comics in front of me that prove otherwise, I'll stick by what I know I read. You guys feel free to keep arguing about it if that makes you happy.

 

 

http://www.newkadia.com/NK.php?sst=Spider-Man

 

1985: Spidey Fights Firelord in Amazing Spider-man

 

 

 

 

http://spiderfan.org/comics/title/spiderman_web-3.html#64

 

Late 1989- early 1990 Cosmic Spidey Storyline in Web of Spider-man

 

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=749810#post749810

 

2005: Bblackmoor realizes that sometimes people disagree with him because he's wrong, not just because they're trying to be difficult.