Power Defence... Ugg

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

For that matter' date=' flash attacks and nearly all physical attacks could more accurately be categorized as energy, while energy attacks could quite reasonably be divided into at least five [i']completely[/i] different special effects, each of which is as distinct from the others as adjustment attacks are from anything else, if not more so.

 

Fire, Sonic, Cold, Electricity and Acid. [Oh look - we're playing d20!]

 

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who sees that all of the other defense categories have the same "multiple SFX" issue.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

All powers require, in my mind, a description. From that description SFX can be determined.

 

Visualizing Power Defense, as is, is the challenge left to the players and the GM, no? Coming up with a justification for why its on your character sheet should be a requirement. Flash Defense can be inner eyelids or sunglasses, for example, but they won't defend you if the flash is directed at you in some unusual way. Normally as GM if a player comes up with an attack that by passes the typical defense there has to be some sort of limitation on it. So the problem isn't so much the SFX of the defense as it is the attack getting around such defenses if present.

 

I am all for keeping Power Defence as is, and just keeping in mind that all things require a written description. From there it is role playing and proper game mastering to keep things fun and blanced.

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I just think Power Defense is way, way overpriced. It isn't useful enough to justify it's cost. Why should it cost as much to defend against adjustment powers as it does against physical attacks, when physical attacks are a thousand times more common? I mean, literally ANYONE can launch a physical attack, but how many people have adjustment powers?

 

Power Defense should cost 1 Point per 2 Power Defense, or maybe even 1 per 3. There's just no way to justify it's high price in comparison to the rarity of such attacks. Lack of Weakness and Flash Defense suffer the same problem, Flash Defense even more so now that Flashes are more powerful and cheaper.

 

Another possibility is using a mechanic like the one used with Mental Defense, but based on CON. Buy 1 point of Power Defense, and get CON/5 points for free.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I just think Power Defense is way' date=' way overpriced. It isn't useful enough to justify it's cost. Why should it cost as much to defend against adjustment powers as it does against physical attacks, when physical attacks are a thousand times more common? I mean, literally ANYONE can launch a physical attack, but how many people have adjustment powers?[/quote']

 

They may be rare, but by making the power defense so cheap as to be a no-brainer then you force adjustment attacks to become even more rare - with characters only having them if they buy them at very high power levels.

 

I don't think rarity of the attack form justifies a price benefit. Perhaps the attack form is rare because the defense is actually too cheap? Pardon my macro-economic look at this but supply and demand comes into play here quite a bit. If you think adjustment power attacks are too rare, then make power defense more expensive. If you want to see fewer of them, make it cheaper. Thats my theory on it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

If you think adjustment power attacks are too rare' date=' then make power defense more expensive.[/quote']

 

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

And what's this about Flash being cheaper and more effective? I thought Flash got more expensive and less effective? That's the main reason I haven't bothered writing up a character with a Flash attack in the last few years. Was there an errata, or did H5 go back to the old way, and I missed it?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Fire' date=' Sonic, Cold, Electricity and Acid. [Oh look - we're playing d20!']

 

I was thinking more along the lines of heat, kinetic, electrical, chemical ... but yours work every bit as well.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

And what's this about Flash being cheaper and more effective? I thought Flash got more expensive and less effective? That's the main reason I haven't bothered writing up a character with a Flash attack in the last few years. Was there an errata' date=' or did H5 go back to the old way, and I missed it?[/quote']

 

I wasn't being explicit, sorry for the confusion. Flash can be made more powerful with a clever description - but one should have to pay for it in some way if the suggestion is it bypasses some typical form of the defense. For example, saying your flash directly affects the optic nerve, thereby bypassing lids and goggles. For that you should need to purchase some flavor of indirect. Its a case where the SFX dictate a specific construction because they suggest an advantage of the attack over normal attacks.

 

Now then, you could buy your flash defense as extra tough optic nerves or bionic eye with automatic limiters on nerve stimulation. There are lots of ways in which you can write up a power and each of those ways can suggest inherent advantages and limitations. If you don't write it up, though, what have you got? That's why I think the character write up - the flavor text - is as important as the actual stats, skills, perks, talents and powers.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

That's why I think the character write up - the flavor text - is as important as the actual stats' date=' skills, perks, talents and powers.[/quote']

 

I could't agree more.

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I don't think rarity of the attack form justifies a price benefit. Perhaps the attack form is rare because the defense is actually too cheap? Pardon my macro-economic look at this but supply and demand comes into play here quite a bit. If you think adjustment power attacks are too rare' date=' then make power defense more expensive. If you want to see fewer of them, make it cheaper. Thats my theory on it.[/quote']

 

I don't understand why a defense against an incredibly uncommon attack should cost more. I don't see the reasoning there. It would seem to me that the reduced demand for a power should reduce it's cost.

 

Adjustment powers are rare in my campaigns primarily because few players can come up with reasonable special effects for them, and because I flat out will not allow DEX, SPD, BODY, PD and ED Drains/Supresses as they tend to be way too destabilizing for their cost. Also, I almost never build villians with them.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I don't understand why a defense against an incredibly uncommon attack should cost more. I don't see the reasoning there. It would seem to me that the reduced demand for a power should reduce it's cost.

 

You are looking at it wrong. There isn't reduced demand for power defense. There is simply, in your world, a lack of need for it so people don't buy it. There is a big difference there. The equalizing force is reflected in both the defense and the attack. ALSO, don't be confused by the shelf price vs. the "actual value." At the given price, in your world, few people are buying power defense. They can't justify it. In another world where drains/suppress/transforms are more common, it might be a necessity to pay those points for it. If adjustment attacks are so rare in your world so as to occure once in the campaign life of a character then even 1 point spent on power defense if probably too much for the rational purchase.

 

Defense is like insurance. Many people under insure and some over insure. $1 Meeeeliion dollars of renters insurance for all of my crap in my apartment would be over insurance just as 10 points of power defense in your world would be.

 

Of course, when you really need it, you really need it!

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Adjustment powers are rare in my campaigns primarily because ... I flat out will not allow ...

 

If I knew straight-up that I'd never be faced with a Penetrating or Armor Piercing attack, I'd never buy Hardened defenses, either.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I don't understand why a defense against an incredibly uncommon attack should cost more. I don't see the reasoning there. It would seem to me that the reduced demand for a power should reduce it's cost.

But, of course, you see that IF THE DEFENSES ARE MORE EXPENSIVE the power will be seen as more useful, and thus taken more often. if the defense is seen as too cheap, the power will not be taken a lot.

Adjustment powers are rare in my campaigns primarily because few players can come up with reasonable special effects for them, and because I flat out will not allow DEX, SPD, BODY, PD and ED Drains/Supresses as they tend to be way too destabilizing for their cost. Also, I almost never build villians with them.

 

I would hazard a guess that, yes, your house rules will tend to make adjustment powers rarer in practice.

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

But' date=' of course, you see that IF THE DEFENSES ARE MORE EXPENSIVE the power will be seen as more useful, and thus taken more often. if the defense is seen as too cheap, the power will not be taken a lot.[/quote']

 

Ah, okay, I think I see what you're getting at.

 

I just don't think I agree with the reasoning. Seems like it would encourage MinMaxing.

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Jackalope. Of course drains/etc will be rare in youre campaigns. You disallow the most usefull and effective ones. How do you deal with poisons if not as a body drain over time? Or for a more superpowered example i once ran a super named "Secondhand". His main power being the ability to move time. He had a linked dex/speed transfer to dex/speed he got faster as you got slower he also had a dex/spd aid with a dex/spd drain side effect so he could give you his time. Eventually the party brick managed to land a grab and it was a free trip to Stronghold for Secondhand. Or take "Presto!" a mutant who can vanish objects for a short time. I origionally built this as an all or nothing body/def drain. You pull a gun *poof* the gun vanishes until it's full body has returned per the normal rules for recovering from drains. Either of these could be done as transforms but drains are so much simpler. I wonder though why you leave one of the nastiest drains in the game as still available? In the hands of even a low power Mentalist an ego drain is a godsend, It's pretty easy to get ego +x when you've only got to beat the x. I agree the drains/transfers need to be carefully considered but the same can be said for aid powers and it is trebly true for transforms.

My .02

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Ah, okay, I think I see what you're getting at.

 

I just don't think I agree with the reasoning. Seems like it would encourage MinMaxing.

 

Frankly, taking a CON that ends in 3 or 8 is minmaxing. How many characters, published or otherwise DO NOT do this?

 

Charging points commensurate with the usefulness of the bility is intended to frustrate minmaxing, not prevent it. If all powers were equally useful (ie no matter what you spent 5 cp on, you would get precisely the same benefit from it), there would be no "min " and no "max".

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

MinMaxing in Hero System? What? No, surely you jest!

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Frankly' date=' taking a CON that ends in 3 or 8 is minmaxing. How many characters, published or otherwise DO NOT do this?[/quote']

 

Um...yeah, I do that. But that's a bit different than what I meant by MinMaxing. That, to me, just seems like effective character design.

 

I meant more the habit some players develop of starting with what I refer to as a "Rules Rape", a power or ability that, in terms of game mechanics, is devastatingly effective, and then jury rigging a concept around it.

 

Like someone who builds a character around aset of drains and attacks designed to rip apart any other character in a matter of seconds (phases, whatever). Like "Here's my power the destroys your defenses, then here's my power that takes away your DCV, and then here's my attack which finally kills you. Concept? Um..uh...he's a guy...with a...battlesuit..."

 

I've seen that battlesuit too many times, dammit!

 

Charging points commensurate with the usefulness of the bility is intended to frustrate minmaxing, not prevent it. If all powers were equally useful (ie no matter what you spent 5 cp on, you would get precisely the same benefit from it), there would be no "min " and no "max".

 

Well, yeah, see, that's what I'm saying.

 

You spend 5 points on PD, you get far, far more benefit for your five points than you would if you spent 5 points on Power Defense. There's no balance there at all.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

"Rules Rape"

 

Well there is a term I am adding to my glossary. I totally know what you mean. The current Champs DM I am running with has you write up a couple of pages of character concept before you design your character. He then compares your write up to your design and pretty much forces you to stick with the 'contract' as it were. Its great. People who Rule Rape aren't decent role players and wouldn't make it far in our group.

 

You spend 5 points on PD' date=' you get far, far more benefit for your five points than you would if you spent 5 points on Power Defense. There's no balance there at all.[/quote']

 

If someone hits me for 5 points of stun, big whoop. If someone hits me for 5 points of drain - hey now! It seems to me 5 points of drain are going to mess me up much worse. PD/ED are cheap because they are necessary. Power Defense is a nice to have and generally esoteric so you have to pay a bit more. YMMV. It also costs more to buy an attack that drains than an EB. 1D6 of drain costs 10 points while 1 point of Power Defense costs 1 point. 6 points spent on defense means that there is no way (without advantages) that the drain is getting through. That seems fair to me. If you don't think you'll be drained because its a rare form of attack then don't buy the defense. Its the same type of tradeoff you have to make in all other aspects of Hero. Do you want the defense to be free???

[palehorse]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

If someone hits me for 5 points of stun, big whoop. If someone hits me for 5 points of drain - hey now! It seems to me 5 points of drain are going to mess me up much worse. PD/ED are cheap because they are necessary. Power Defense is a nice to have and generally esoteric so you have to pay a bit more. YMMV. It also costs more to buy an attack that drains than an EB. 1D6 of drain costs 10 points while 1 point of Power Defense costs 1 point. 6 points spent on defense means that there is no way (without advantages) that the drain is getting through. That seems fair to me. If you don't think you'll be drained because its a rare form of attack then don't buy the defense. Its the same type of tradeoff you have to make in all other aspects of Hero. Do you want the defense to be free???

 

Yep, that's always been my experience; power defense doesn't get used nearly as often, but when you need it a little goes a long way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Like "Here's my power the destroys your defenses, then here's my power that takes away your DCV, and then here's my attack which finally kills you. Concept? Um..uh...he's a guy...with a...battlesuit..."

 

**********************************************

 

You spend 5 points on PD, you get far, far more benefit for your five points than you would if you spent 5 points on Power Defense. There's no balance there at all.

 

On the one hand, youre saying Drains are very powerful, and on the other hand you're saying that points spent to defend yourself from drains aren't valuable. Which is it?

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Well there is a term I am adding to my glossary...People who Rule Rape aren't decent role players and wouldn't make it far in our group.

 

Here's another one for you: People who commit Rules Rape on a regular basis are, of course, Rules Rapists.

 

If someone hits me for 5 points of stun, big whoop. If someone hits me for 5 points of drain - hey now! It seems to me 5 points of drain are going to mess me up much worse. PD/ED are cheap because they are necessary. Power Defense is a nice to have and generally esoteric so you have to pay a bit more. YMMV. It also costs more to buy an attack that drains than an EB. 1D6 of drain costs 10 points while 1 point of Power Defense costs 1 point. 6 points spent on defense means that there is no way (without advantages) that the drain is getting through. That seems fair to me. If you don't think you'll be drained because its a rare form of attack then don't buy the defense. Its the same type of tradeoff you have to make in all other aspects of Hero. Do you want the defense to be free???

 

You make an excellent point, and I suppose I hadn't really considered that. Still, the average Drain in a Supers game is going to be around 5d6-7d6 (average effect: 17-24), which means 5 points of Pow Def isn't going to help much, and it's hard to justify buying much more than that. And then there's Suppress, which is pretty cheap. 5 Power Defense isn't going to mean squat if someone hits you with a 10d6-14d6 (average effect 35-42) END suppress and forces you to run on STUN.

 

I still think the cost isn't as it should be. I think the first point of Pow Def should get you CON/5 Pow Def, and then point for point after that.

 

I still have never figured out a decent special effect for Pow Def either.

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

On the one hand' date=' youre saying Drains are very powerful, and on the other hand you're saying that points spent to defend yourself from drains aren't valuable. Which is it?[/quote']

 

I didn't say they were really powerful. I was trying to say that Adjustment powers are easy to abuse. You know, like buying an 8d6 PD Suppress linked to a 2d6 AP RKA, with the limitations Focus, Beam, Cannot Be Bounced, 8 1-Turn Charges and calling it "Acid Bullets". That's just cheesy.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I didn't say they were really powerful. I was trying to say that Adjustment powers are easy to abuse. You know' date=' like buying an 8d6 PD Suppress linked to a 2d6 AP RKA, with the limitations Focus, Beam, Cannot Be Bounced, 8 1-Turn Charges and calling it "Acid Bullets". That's just cheesy.[/quote']

 

That is cheesy. Thankfully the attack happens before the suppress according to the 5E rules. Defenses are always adjusted last.

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

That is cheesy. Thankfully the attack happens before the suppress according to the 5E rules. Defenses are always adjusted last.

 

Neat, did not know that. I just got the 5E rules less than a month ago. I'm still living in a 3E world, where AFAIK, the issue wasn't addressed.

 

Still, we all know that an "Acid Bullet" is a 1d6 Penetrating RKA, Continuous, Uncontrolled with a 1 turn continuing charge. The PD Suppress is just nonsense. I mean what the hell is that supposed to be? The acid eats someones skin, then it comes back in a turn? Whatever.

 

Maybe I should mention that I've had to shoot that power down three times, from two different players. I hate DEF Drains and Suppress, but I see them all the time. Like go through the characters on Global Guardians, and you'll see it more than once. There's one guy (Nordberg Man or something) who has a DEF Drain defined as "freezing the target till he's brittle", but there's no linked massive RKA. So apparently you can freeze and shatter someone's skin without hurting them, and it'll grow back in a few minutes.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

What is and isn't allowed in a campaign is an important duty of the GM. Unrestricted the Munchkins and Munchkins in Denial (guilty as charged) will run rampant and require really bogus enemies.

 

I expect my GM will throw a STR drainer at me at some time. I did not yet buy power defense but I did by healing BODY and STR - my character is a minor Hindu God, if you will, and does this healing though meditation. And he may never send a STR draining attack against my brick ever - but I spent the points because when it comes down to it, without STR my brick is Lame Ass! I will eventually probably buy some Power Defense, its in my character concept to a degree, but we'll see. It depends on what kind of villians the GM is going to throw our way.

 

Oh an the rule on reducing defenses at the same time as an attack can be found on 5E pg. 234 under MULTIPLE-POWER ATTACKS. Its a nicely written section and in fact the ENTERING COMBAT chapter should be re-read several times by anyone who wants to play the game properly. Kudos to Steve on this one.