Power Defence... Ugg

[Narthon]

I really don't like power defence.

 

I don't see how the same thing protects you from magicly being transformed into a frog, sleeping drugs, and having your atoms taken apart by nanomachienes and recombined elsewhere.

 

It seems like a shoddy patch. Something was needed to deal with "strange" powers, and they made it up.

 

I also don't see many good excuses for ways to take it, espically take it without lims. A magic protection talismen works against magic, a mask protects from sleeping drugs, and anti-nanites protect from nanomachienes, but most shouldn't protect from other things. How do you do a technological or trained protection from magic?

 

 

Any thoughts?

[Count Zero]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Don't allow it without limitations. The key is the all of the powers are base effects. It is the advantages, limitations and special effects which really define them.

 

Jonathan

[KA.]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Narthon,

I think Count Zero is on the right track. Hero is more about reasoning from effect with a few, easily modified powers, than having hundreds of tiny powers that do one exact thing.

 

So, rather than having Poison Defense, Magic Defense, Technological Defense, etc. etc. etc., Hero just gives you the general Power Defense, and assumes that you will add the proper Advantages and Disadvantages to create the actual type of defense you want.

 

I don't think I would allow a character to put "Power Defense" on their sheet any more than I would allow them to put "Desolidification" with no other description.

 

The same way you have to describe "how" you are Desolid (Liquid Form, Out of Phase, Ghostly Form, etc.) and therefore what type of attacks can affect you, I would require the player to say exactly what "powers" they were "defending".

 

Since it is not really that common, I can see why they didn't want to split it up into a bunch of confusing alternatives.

"I bought Magic Defense, will that protect me against Magical Poison? What about a Magical Transformation Attack? What about a Magic STR Drain?"

 

Rather than have this type of debate rage on all day, you just define the power when you buy it, based on the Player's description of how it works.

 

I can see Iron Man developing some type of "phase shielding" that protects against "technological" drains and nanites. That does not mean that it would work against a magic spell that turned armor to stone.

 

But I don't see this as a "cop out" on Hero's part. Rather, they are just sticking to the overall concept. Reason from effect.

 

If what you have is a magical hat that protects you from being turned into a frog, that is going to require certain Limitations added onto Power Defense. You would not just buy "generic" Power Defense and say it protected from that, and everything else.

 

Every power is supposed to have some sort of description, justification, and Special Effect. I would not think that an "anti-magic shell" would keep out nanites. So it should be built with Limitations to reflect that.

 

KA.

[Narthon]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Thats funny actually, as in the game I'm currently we added Magic Defence and Ki defence. Magic defence can protect from anything magical, so if someone throws a fireball at you, you decide if you want to use your ED or your Magic D.

If someone hits you with an advanced KI strike, you can choose Ki defence or Physical.

 

Magic can also protect you from any other type of magical effect, including many power effects.

 

The cop out is that the power can not be used as written without modifires. PD works against everything that does kinetic damage and it isn't hard to imagine how that works. ED protects from all energy types, and that really isn't too hard to figure out either (Insulation works). Mental D covers attacks and effects on the mind. All three are pretty simple, but Power D really doesn't make sence the way the other defences do.

[Agent X]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Thats funny actually, as in the game I'm currently we added Magic Defence and Ki defence. Magic defence can protect from anything magical, so if someone throws a fireball at you, you decide if you want to use your ED or your Magic D.

If someone hits you with an advanced KI strike, you can choose Ki defence or Physical.

 

Magic can also protect you from any other type of magical effect, including many power effects.

 

The cop out is that the power can not be used as written without modifires. PD works against everything that does kinetic damage and it isn't hard to imagine how that works. ED protects from all energy types, and that really isn't too hard to figure out either (Insulation works). Mental D covers attacks and effects on the mind. All three are pretty simple, but Power D really doesn't make sence the way the other defences do.

It's a catch-all. You use limitations like everyone has said.

 

Your magic and ki defense sounds a little more complicated than power defense with limitations though, but not much more complicated.

 

 

For example:

Magic Defense: 15 points of power defense, -1/2 only versus magic and +5 pd, rpd, ed, red; -1/2 only versus magic

 

Ki Defense: 15 points of power defense, -1/2 only versus ki attacks and +5 pd, rpd, ed, red; -1/2 only versus ki attacks

[Rick]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Well ED protects you from Electricity, fire, Magic, Dark energy or anything. Why would Power Defense protect you from multiple SFX.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

IIRC most of the example characters who have power defense have power defense, not power defense limited to an SFX.

 

So arguments about "hero" intending you to usually limit power defense and not take a catch-all defense that handles everything from itching powder to wraith drain to aging spells to even rock-to-mud traps don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

If "hero" wanted you to in most cases limit your power defense to a narrow set of SFX, wouldn't it make sense to have it do so as default? other powers/effects require a limit included in their base cost.

 

The conceptual problem with power defense, which is not a mechanical one, is that adjustment powers are used to handle a vastly wide scope of effects, such as the ones mentioned above, within the system. The notion of any single effect covering all seems rather difficult to work in, at least to a game which worries beyond the mechanical.

 

The best idea i have had/seen/usee is that most adjustment powers should instead be NND-like. They should have conditions, effects and circumstances that counter their power and not some ephemeral trait called power defense. i used a lot of them in chardesign in my last HERo game but it was rather shortlived (under a year) so i really cannot say it got extensive playtesting. Power defense basically goes away in this version and each sfx of adjustment powers become a wholly different animal, each with its own set of counters, just like NNDs.

 

The other notion is, a less dramatic one, to make both adjustment powers and power defense take as a default the "of a given sfx" trait that adjustment powers get only when they add more than one power. .

[Magmarock]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I think that Power Defense bought straight out, without limitations is too powerful for the cost, too. Maybe it sould cost double the current rate with SFX limitations required to make it cheap again.

 

Mags

[Guest Kolava]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Another wierd fact is that Power Defense is the absolute defense for many NND or UAAs.

 

In the end, you have to remember to reason from effect and apply limitations where they need to be. No one usually eats plain bread without putting stuff on it, but does that make bread a bad food? No, it just means it's one of the more dependant foods out there just as Power Defense is dependant on modifiers.

 

It is actually possible to buy plain Power Defense, but the SFX need to be very broad (cosmic entities or hyperadvanced robots are two possibilities; they can maintain their form against forces trieng to alter it in any way)

[Grailknight]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Every living thing tries to maintain its form and resists attempts to alter it. If you use this rationale,( I do.) then there is no problem with broad effect power def.

[Rick]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Once agian read my last post. It's little different from ED or PD. They all cover all SFX that cause that sort of damage. Power defense is no different. It's cheap because all defensive power are relatvly cheaper than the appropriate attack.

[Guest Kolava]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Once agian read my last post. It's little different from ED or PD. They all cover all SFX that cause that sort of damage. Power defense is no different. It's cheap because all defensive power are relatvly cheaper than the appropriate attack.

No one's doubting that Power Defense is a type of defense, the discussion is about SFX. No one simply buys Energy Defense because they want to take less damage from energy and calls it "Energy Defense", there has to be something more to it (force field, armor, char is simply tough). Power Defense is the same, you are right, but the issue is how it's SFX are more difficult to assign then ED or PD, a fact that led some to believe it had some intrinsic problems in it's design.

 

Every living thing tries to maintain its form and resists attempts to alter it. If you use this rationale' date='( I do.) then there is no problem with broad effect power def.[/quote']

 

Though I see nothing wrong with it, some GMs might not like a character who, out of sheer will, can not have his SPD reduced by a spell or his EB reduced by the Energy Dampening field, particularly if the spell involves slowing down time for the character or the EB is bought through a focus.

[Rick]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I've never seen it just called power defense. Most often I've seen at as an extension of a character primary defensive capabilities. So it's part of the armor, or force field or alien physiology they already have.

 

And you can just buy ED and PD, they are characteristics, the same W/MD and Flash Defense.

[Jarekk]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I've always looked at power defence as an inner strength--a resistance to being altered, which is what it is...

 

It's your strength of self, or so I always concidered it.

 

I keep trying to say what I mean, but I keep re-writing the same things. I need to stop doing this at 4:30 am. (%)

[Wanderer]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

IMO, all-around Power Defense without any SFX limitations is quite appropriate for high-level mystic or cosmic characters, where it represents advanced mastery over one's lifeforce and metaphysical frame, resisting any attempts to warp it without one's permission. It is also appropriate for hyper-technological characters with advanced nanite-based self-repair systems, who are able to heal any kind of damage on a molecular level.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Every living thing tries to maintain its form and resists attempts to alter it. If you use this rationale' date='( I do.) then there is no problem with broad effect power def.[/quote']

 

That would be true if the SFX of all adjustment powers were "alters the form of the target."

 

itcvhing powder (Dex drain), muddy ground (drain/suppress vs running and leaping), etc don't come close to fitting that bill.

[Agent X]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

IIRC most of the example characters who have power defense have power defense, not power defense limited to an SFX.

 

So arguments about "hero" intending you to usually limit power defense and not take a catch-all defense that handles everything from itching powder to wraith drain to aging spells to even rock-to-mud traps don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

If "hero" wanted you to in most cases limit your power defense to a narrow set of SFX, wouldn't it make sense to have it do so as default? other powers/effects require a limit included in their base cost.

 

The conceptual problem with power defense, which is not a mechanical one, is that adjustment powers are used to handle a vastly wide scope of effects, such as the ones mentioned above, within the system. The notion of any single effect covering all seems rather difficult to work in, at least to a game which worries beyond the mechanical.

 

The best idea i have had/seen/usee is that most adjustment powers should instead be NND-like. They should have conditions, effects and circumstances that counter their power and not some ephemeral trait called power defense. i used a lot of them in chardesign in my last HERo game but it was rather shortlived (under a year) so i really cannot say it got extensive playtesting. Power defense basically goes away in this version and each sfx of adjustment powers become a wholly different animal, each with its own set of counters, just like NNDs.

 

The other notion is, a less dramatic one, to make both adjustment powers and power defense take as a default the "of a given sfx" trait that adjustment powers get only when they add more than one power. .

It's a matter of personal taste how you use power defense. Some folks have a problem with the idea of power defense affecting multiple sfx. Some don't. The system works for both sets of folks.

[Agent X]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I think that Power Defense bought straight out, without limitations is too powerful for the cost, too. Maybe it sould cost double the current rate with SFX limitations required to make it cheap again.

 

Mags

Does it come up that often in your games?

[Agent X]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

That would be true if the SFX of all adjustment powers were "alters the form of the target."

 

itcvhing powder (Dex drain), muddy ground (drain/suppress vs running and leaping), etc don't come close to fitting that bill.

Wouldn't muddy ground be Change Environment?

[Wanderer]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

That would be true if the SFX of all adjustment powers were "alters the form of the target."

 

I'd say that this is true in the vast majority of cases, in genres where adjustment powers often come into play (Champions, Fantasy Hero, Ninja Hero), often enough for making all-around Power Defense appropriate there.

 

For the other examples you mention (Chemical attacks, like sleeping gas, or itching power), I'd say that as Drains they should be done NND (defense is Life Support vs. chemical agents) in any case.

 

Muddy ground, I'd reckon it to be either Entangle, or Change Environment.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

 

 

I'd say that this is true in the vast majority of cases, in genres where adjustment powers often come into play (Champions, Fantasy Hero, Ninja Hero), often enough for making all-around Power Defense appropriate there.

i gotta say, as an old-timer in those games, i certainly do not see that the form alter SFX for adjustment powers is all that more common than the rest.

 

For the other examples you mention (Chemical attacks, like sleeping gas, or itching power), I'd say that as Drains they should be done NND (defense is Life Support vs. chemical agents) in any case.

I agree of course, that they should be NND. I don't for instance, think they should be more expensive than a standard drain, however, which is iirc what happens when "vs power defense" is standard. The various NND resistant effects (life support vs sleeping gas, rPD vs itching powder, etc) occur far more frequently than significant levels of power defense will, if the sample characters and my own campaign experience are looked at.

 

Muddy ground, I'd reckon it to be either Entangle, or Change Environment.

 

It probably could be done with CE, but i have seen it done with suppress/drain vs running and leaping. Should we consider this to be a specific case where "you should only build it one way in hero" as opposed to the usual "you can build things several ways in hero"?

[Zanthis]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

It probably could be done with CE' date=' but i have seen it done with suppress/drain vs running and leaping. Should we consider this to be a specific case where "you should only build it one way in hero" as opposed to the usual "you can build things several ways in hero"?[/quote']While you can do things many ways in HEROs, no one said they'd all be equally effective. While I can understand your point of view, I look at it this way:

 

If I have some power I do not want to be affected by everyone and his brother who has power defense, I have two choices: 1) Force everyone and his brother to not have the defense I don't want them to have, 2) Build my power such that the defense I am concerned about isn't effective.

 

Now, if I'm the GM, I can use option 1, but if I'm just a player, I've only got option 2. I find many GMs take option 1 just because they can, rather than using option 2. In both examples you listed, non-adjustment powers would be better solutions. Sure, you can build them with adjustment powers, but when you reason from effect, you determine that it doesn't make sense for power defense to stop those powers, so that should eliminate adjustment powers as a method of implementing your power.

 

As an aside, if power defense doesn't stop Itching Powder (DEX Drain) what does? Power Defense vs Chemical Attacks? I find that defense sufficiently unlikely to ever be encountered that the itching powder really should be NND and have to pay the extra points. Otherwise I don't see why players wouldn't just start making extremely obscure adjustment powers (say BODY drain) against whacked out power defenses.

 

How about: Universal Allergen: 9d6 BODY Drain (requires Power Defense against Allergens)

[TheEmerged]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I won't at all be surprised if Power Defense gets seperated into categories in a future edition, the way Flash Defense operates and the way Lack Of Weakness now operates under 5th Edition. I've given some thought to adopting this as a house rule for future campaigns...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I agree of course' date=' that they should be NND. I don't for instance, think they should be more expensive than a standard drain, however, which is iirc what happens when "vs power defense" is standard. The various NND resistant effects (life support vs sleeping gas, rPD vs itching powder, etc) occur far more frequently than significant levels of power defense will, if the sample characters and my own campaign experience are looked at.[/quote']

 

To me, this is a problem overall. Swapping esoteric defenses should not cost the same as replacing a standard defense with an esoteric defense.

 

Let's define first. for me, "Standard Defense" means PD and ED only. An esoteric defense is Flash Defense, Power Defense, Mental Defense and NND (and anything you want to allow as AVLD as well)..

 

Perhaps a reasonable approach would be to allow all powers which apply against an esoteric defense as a default (eg. Flash, adjustment powers) to take "Attacks Standard Defense" as a limitation (the same as "mental power based on CON": -1.5), then buy an advantage to select a new defense.

 

Thus, our itching powder would be a DEX drain, Based on Standard Defense, NND - immunity to chemicals. A Flash versus power defense would be Flash, Based on Standard Defense, AVLD Power Defense.

 

The result would be that swapping between Flash, Mental Defense and Power Defense would be free, and changing an attack against one of these three defenses to an NND would effectively save 20% (assuming only these advantages and limitations). For simplification, therefore, simply allow attacks vs esoteric defensesto swap the defense as a +0 advantage (that's how energy blasts work now anyway), and become "NND" for a -1/4 limitation.

 

This might also force the issue that the defense for an NND should be more common than a substantial amount of flash/power/mental defense.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

As an aside, if power defense doesn't stop Itching Powder (DEX Drain) what does?

 

R PD of the sort that prevents the skin from being contacted by the powder. For instance, force fields and some armor sfx (like armor suits.)

 

Guys with just tough skin, damage reduction or dex based defenses would be affected while those with force fields and relatively sealed armor suits would not.

 

IMX that would mean that between 1/2 to 1/3 of the enemies would not be affected.

 

Thats why i suggest the nnd option first, BTW. I certainly would not expect anyone to go buying power defense limited to stopping a particular power or something as silly as "only vs allergens".

 

Could i see someone buying power defense vs poisons and diseases, just like they would buy life support for the same thing, as a less than flawless means of stopping such.

 

of course, i could also see "power defense" being redefined as a "sfx defense" where it applied as a defense against any effect of a given type whether that effect was an Ebn a HKA, a flash, or a NND or a drain. The goal would be to simplify those constructs as compared to buying every known defense "only vs fire" and even then having to fret over NNDs.