Power Defence... Ugg

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I didn't say they were really powerful. I was trying to say that Adjustment powers are easy to abuse. You know' date=' like buying an 8d6 PD Suppress linked to a 2d6 AP RKA, with the limitations Focus, Beam, Cannot Be Bounced, 8 1-Turn Charges and calling it "Acid Bullets". That's just cheesy.[/quote']

 

8d6 PD suppress will reduce PD by 14 on average (adjustment powers are halved against defenses) after the damaging attack, as already mentioned. That's also an 85 AP/17 DC power which wouldn't meet the grade in a 60 AP/12 DC average attack campaign. Drop it to 1d6 AP RKA to become comparable. But at the end of the day, the sfx won't do it for me anyway.

 

I find the limitations more cheesy than the power itself. Simple answer, however. It's a focus? VIPER reverse engineers it. Whenever I see an ability that I think smells overpowered, I like to run it by the group and ask if they're comfortable with the prospect of having it used against them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

5 Power Defense isn't going to mean squat if someone hits you with a 10d6-14d6 (average effect 35-42) END suppress and forces you to run on STUN.

 

5 PD doesn't mean much if you're hit with a 10d6 to 14d6 punch, either.

 

I still think the cost isn't as it should be. I think the first point of Pow Def should get you CON/5 Pow Def' date=' and then point for point after that.[/quote']

 

To play the devil's advocate, that first point of Power Defense is suddenly way more cost-effective than any that follow, isn't it?

 

I still have never figured out a decent special effect for Pow Def either.

 

TOUGH. This character is amazingly tough, and resists inherently all forms of attack directed against him.

 

MYSTIC PROTECTION: Due to mysical ceremonies when he was but an infant, Dr. Bizarre is protected against all manner of effects which might cause him harm or reduce his capabilities.

 

LUCKY: Attacks just seem to be glancing or otherwiuse reduced in effect when directed at this character.

 

FAST: This character's amazing reflexes allow him to roll with the punch, evade attacks so they srike ony glancingly, etc.

 

These are all the same sfx as for PD or ED, by the way. These are also good sfx for comnbat luck. our force field can have powere defense, as can armor. It's no tougher from a SFX persp[ective than any other defense, just not as linked to specific other abilities.

[Zanthis]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Firstly, if you don't like Munchkins in the game, TELL the players that. Try this conversation with the offending player:

 

"Ok, so your Superhero has a gun that fires acidic bullets. Looking at the power, if you hit a bystander they are dead. Nothing will save them. Hmm, and your gun is autofire too. Does your character not care about innocent civilians? Is his attitude, 'Oops, sucks to be you dude.' or what? Because you know what, your character's powers look more like a Supervillian to me. In fact, you guys will all be fighting Bob's Supervillian with acidic bullets next session. Thanks Bob for making a really nasty Supervillian. You probably want to get started on your Superhero now though. If I need any other villians, I'll let you know."

 

Then give Bob's character Desolidification, 0 END Persistant, Always On, Inherent and his gun Affects Solid, Area Effect One Hex, double it for +5 points so he MPA each phase and proceed to rip the party into tiny pieces.

 

Afterwords, tell them they wake up from a horrible dream in which they had strayed from the ideals of Superherodom into a moral grey abyss and they all feel they should carefully reconsider their attitudes towards life.

 

11 out of 10 Munchkin powers are extremely lethal to noncombatants, or to people the hero thought were robbing that bank but instead just got back from skiing. 11 out of 10 Munchkin players like making Munchkins. So let them...just do it as a side arena-style battle, not with their main characters. The thing about most Munchkin players is they don't like repeating the same trick. Once they realize some of the best abuses, they'll feel it's somehow beneath them to continue using them. The thrill is in coming up with new abuses. With a side arena-style game for them to exercise this interest in, they'll tend to leave Munchkins out of the role-playing group. Plus, everyone learns the combat rules REALLY well during these .

 

Also, I recommend you creafully read the 5E rules and FAQ. There are many little details that can drastically affect games with nearly-Munchkin characters. Just very briefly:

• I'll tell you straight up to disallow the 5 point to double equipment rule.
  
• Read the rules on Multi-power Attacks and Sweep Attacks about 30 times until you can recite them from memory. Lots of little details in them.
  
• Double check the rules on DCV/OCV manipulation, especially one halving DCV (it can only be halved once, happens after other modifiers, etc).
  
• Don't forget to make sure you fully understand aborting to defensive actions and the manuevers that go with them. Know that you can abort to activate your Force Field AND Martial Dodge with the same aborted action.
  
• Read the restrictions on the power frameworks, especially ECs and MPs.
  
• Learn the ins and outs of Naked Power Advantages.
  
• Read the rules on adding Strength to HA, HKA and manuavers together. Then come here and post your questions and learn that we aren't even sure exactly how it all adds up.
  
• Read up on the moving attacks, and learn that they can deal damage so insane you'll be wishing for wimpy acid bullets.
  

 

Remember, what's good for the Heroes is super-good for the Villians. Tell the players this. If they want random insta-death powers in their battle suit, ask them how much fun fighting against Dr. Ridiculous will be when each of his minions has such a suit? The GM can always add enough limitations to make powers cheap enough for minions since the bad guys have a short life expectancy anyways. Who cares if they've only got 3 charges of Instant Death? There are only 5 Heroes in the group!

 

Ultimately, it's a game so just have fun. Know that you can never add enough rules to prevent Munchkins, but you can change your players' attitudes so that they stop making Munchkins and still enjoy playing their characters.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

8d6 PD suppress will reduce PD by 14 on average (adjustment powers are halved against defenses) after the damaging attack' date=' as already mentioned.[/quote']

 

I think it'd be simpler and more effective to just add 4d6 to the attack.

 

As for "lethality", I learned a long time ago that any damage-causing attack is lethal, if it's big enough. A bystander killed by a 15d6 Energy Blast is just as dead as bystander killed by a 5d6 Ranged Killing Attack.

[Zanthis]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

True, dead is dead. However, 15d6 averages 15 BODY, so with 2 PD and 8 BODY of the average person, they'll take 13 BODY putting that at -5 BODY which is not quite dead. Your Superheroes have just enough time to save his life. A 5d6 RKA however averages 17.5 BODY (call it 17) and a normal's PD isn't resistant so all 17 goes through. That puts him at -9 which is quite dead. KAs really are more lethal. They should be taken only if the intent is to kill with the attack. Nonlethal attacks can also kill, but unless your characters "Absolutely, positively has to kill every mother f***er in the room", stay away from KAs. They do exactly what their name implies.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

True' date=' dead is dead. However... KAs really are more lethal.[/quote']

 

No, they're not. Normal people die from any even moderately powerful attack, while superheros rarely take much, if any, Body damage at all, and then they take virtually the same damage whether it's Killing or not.

 

It mystifies me that people don't seem to get this. I posted a half-dozen or a dozen examples, at a range of power levels, in another thread, and still people don't get it. I get the feeling I could post a comprehensive matrix with every possible attack and defense point level from 10 pts. up to 90 pts., and people still wouldn't get it. It's baffling.

 

But we're way off the topic of the thread. I won't beat this particular horse anymore.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

No, they're not. Normal people die from any even moderately powerful attack, while superheros rarely take much, if any, Body damage at all, and then they take virtually the same damage whether it's Killing or not.

 

It mystifies me that people don't seem to get this. I posted a half-dozen or a dozen examples, at a range of power levels, in another thread, and still people don't get it. I get the feeling I could post a comprehensive matrix with every possible attack and defense point level from 10 pts. up to 90 pts., and people still wouldn't get it. It's baffling.

 

But we're way off the topic of the thread. I won't beat this particular horse anymore.

 

Despite your last statement (dead on), I'll just add this. Note that Zanthis' example shows letahlity for a baseline normal person, where your examples have shown lethality for characters of equal capability. You aergue that KA's aren't more lethal because they aren't more lethal to guys with appropriate defenses. Zanthis has demonstrated that KA's are more lethal when measured by the likelihood of "Joe Normal" being killed.

 

Whenever people tell me how they try and try, and still no one gets it, I start to wonder who it is that REALLY doesn't get it.

[Zanthis]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I am certainly not trying to claim Normal vs Killing Attacks against equally powerered characters are more or less lethal. All I generally care about in terms of lethality is against innocent bystanders. When all of a Hero's powers would outright kill any normal person that is accidentally hit, I get concerned. Most players forget that they are just as often protecting normal people as death-matching bad guys in their secret lair in the middle of nowhere. That means one wrong shot and they just killed someone. Not good for a Superhero.

 

A few lethal (to normals) attacks are fine. But I've had people come up with 6 out of 6 attack powers that would outright kill any 2 PD 10 BODY (4E rules) character they hit. And this is what the normal Munchkin player forgets. The goal is not just "Defeat my enemy" but frequently includes "and don't kill innocent people doing it". I'd rather let the player know about the problem during character creation than after the game started. Because my villians will use human shields, hostages, mind controlled children and wire wheelchair-bound elderly with nuclear weapons. If you've only got acid bullets, you'll find a lot of combat you just can't do anything at all because all you can do it kill, and there's nothing you want to kill!

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

When all of a Hero's powers would outright kill any normal person that is accidentally hit' date=' I get concerned.[/quote']

 

1) Any large attack will kill "any normal person".

 

2) Any attack, unless it has taken a Limitation to the contrary, can be used at reduced power.

 

I wouldn't mind discussing this topic further. If you like, create a new thread for it.

[Agent X]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

1) Any large attack will kill "any normal person".

 

2) Any attack, unless it has taken a Limitation to the contrary, can be used at reduced power.

 

I wouldn't mind discussing this topic further. If you like, create a new thread for it.

Nope, I'll discuss it right here.

 

Here's where the difference is:

3d6 RKA averages 10.5 body damage. Joe Normal has NO defense against it. Joe Normal is at -.5 Body on average. That's a 9 damage class attack.

 

9d6 EB averages 9 body damage. Joe Normal has TWO defense against it. Joe Normal is at 3 body on average. That's a 9 damage class attack.

 

Yes, once you get to big dice, Joe Normal is out of luck either way but at smaller dice attacks Joe Normal is more likely to survive an EB than an RKA. THAT is why people say killing attacks are more lethal.

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

5 PD doesn't mean much if you're hit with a 10d6 to 14d6 punch' date=' either.

 

Well yeah, but have you ever seena Brick built with 5 PD? No. A Brick built with 5 Pow Def? Many times.

 

To play the devil's advocate, that first point of Power Defense is suddenly way more cost-effective than any that follow, isn't it?

 

Yep, just like the first point of Mental Def.

 

These are all the same sfx as for PD or ED, by the way. These are also good sfx for comnbat luck. our force field can have powere defense, as can armor. It's no tougher from a SFX persp[ective than any other defense, just not as linked to specific other abilities.

 

Sure, those are reasonably valid - but if being Tough, or Lucky, or Fast justifies Pow Def, then why doesn't every character with those attributes have Pow Def? If those are the sorts of things that justify Pow Def, then why is Pow Def different than PD or ED?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I started a new thread for the discussion of large and/or lethal attacks, and how they may limit a character's options when noncombatants are present. It is called Nonlethal Alternatives.

[jackalope]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I think it'd be simpler and more effective to just add 4d6 to the attack.

 

Nope, because the PD Suppress wil reduce the victim's def against EVERYONE'S attacks. See, you open the fight by nailing everyone with Acid Bullets, then the brick tears them apart while their skin is mysteriously gone.

 

That's called "Tactics" or "Annoying the GM To No End".

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Nope' date=' because the PD Suppress wil reduce the victim's def against EVERYONE'S attacks.[/quote']

 

Ah, I see. I'm sorry: I misunderstood how the power was purchased. In that case, I don't see a problem with it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Yep' date=' just like the first point of Mental Def. [/quote']

 

We can alweays get rid of that as well. Or, alternatively, make MD a figured characteristic and you add to it at 1 point per. The same could be done with power defense.

 

Sure' date=' those are reasonably valid - but if being Tough, or Lucky, or Fast justifies Pow Def, then why doesn't every character with those attributes have Pow Def? If those are the sorts of things that justify Pow Def, then why is Pow Def different than PD or ED?[/quote']

 

Because not every character is necessarily tough, lucky or fast in the same way. Why don't all Energy Blasts (or all EB's of a given special effect) have the Armor Piercing advantage?

[Mentor]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Do what? Yes, they do. It's called Power Defense.

 

Adjustment attacks : Power Defense

Energy attacks : Energy Defense

Flash attacks : Flash Defense

Mental attacks : Mental Defense

Physical attacks : Physical Defense

 

Granted, it would be be more intuitive if it were called Adjustment Defense, but that can't seriously be what's hanging you up, can it?

Pre-zactly. Concerns based on distateful special effect may require some broadening of the SFX application or execution rather than narrowing of the effect concept perception, i.e. molecular structure that physically moves molecules out of the way of the adjustment attack, regardless of SFX, rather than just calling it "magic" or "radiation" because of the power origin. Concentrate your definition on what it does rather than why or how it does something justifies power defense just fine in most cases.

[zornwil]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Do what? Yes, they do. It's called Power Defense.

 

Adjustment attacks : Power Defense

Energy attacks : Energy Defense

Flash attacks : Flash Defense

Mental attacks : Mental Defense

Physical attacks : Physical Defense

 

Granted, it would be be more intuitive if it were called Adjustment Defense, but that can't seriously be what's hanging you up, can it?

All of these can be identified as a very specific thing...except one...I think that says it all. The criticisms that follow are as redundant as this, you're all saying "adjustment defense is valid because adjustment attacks exist."

 

How are adjustment attacks delivered? The others are delivered via real, definable mechanisms, physical, energy, sense-blinding, mental, things we understand. NND and AVLD and Limitations were built to define other circumstances. Adjustment defenses (i.e. "Power Defense") still make no real sense in this context.

 

By the "Adjustment Defense" logic we should just have "Attack Power Defense"...yet we do not.

 

PS - btw, a valid construction would be to precisely do this, to eliminate the phys/ener distinction and simply embrace "Attack Defense". That would become consistent, then. PPS - although "Flash Defense" would better be qualified into the "Sense-Affecting Defenses" or such.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Zornwill,

I don't think your argument proves his defense is flawed, more than it shows an inconsistancy in the Hero System. I think this results from the inception. I have in my hands right now a copy of Champions I and when you look at it, the obvious thing you note is -- they had no idea in 1981 what the game would become in 2004! Or even that I would hold a copy of 5th edition in hard back along with almost 20" of bookshelf space taken up by Hero books.

 

I mean really back then powers had options (not just advantages and limitation!) Energy blast had the option of no knockback and no stun. They also state a range mod of -1 per 3" in the Energy Blast description itself. All of these original inconsistancies were later smoothed out in 5th edition. Is there room for more improvement? Sure. 6th edition will be here in time for the colonization of Mars.

 

Finally, you say that "How are adjustment attacks delivered? The others are delivered via real, definable mechanisms, physical, energy, sense-blinding, mental, things we understand." Well, adjustment powers are too... if you read comic books and base a roleplaying game based on every comic you read in the 1970's!

 

And really, do you actually believe in psionic powers and think mental powers are a "real and definable mechanism"???

[zornwil]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

Zornwill,

I don't think your argument proves his defense is flawed, more than it shows an inconsistancy in the Hero System. I think this results from the inception. I have in my hands right now a copy of Champions I and when you look at it, the obvious thing you note is -- they had no idea in 1981 what the game would become in 2004! Or even that I would hold a copy of 5th edition in hard back along with almost 20" of bookshelf space taken up by Hero books.

 

I mean really back then powers had options (not just advantages and limitation!) Energy blast had the option of no knockback and no stun. They also state a range mod of -1 per 3" in the Energy Blast description itself. All of these original inconsistancies were later smoothed out in 5th edition. Is there room for more improvement? Sure. 6th edition will be here in time for the colonization of Mars.

 

Finally, you say that "How are adjustment attacks delivered? The others are delivered via real, definable mechanisms, physical, energy, sense-blinding, mental, things we understand." Well, adjustment powers are too... if you read comic books and base a roleplaying game based on every comic you read in the 1970's!

 

And really, do you actually believe in psionic powers and think mental powers are a "real and definable mechanism"???

I agree that the issues do relate back to the original edition not being far-sighted enough, which, of course, is no major slight at all.

 

To your specific point, re comics and other heroic fiction, I've never seen adjustments delivered in such an oddly-defined way - they're always magical (which I agree can be a form of energy), physical (as in either cutting tendons or sapping muscle tissue), energy (as in a poison), or, in rare cases, mental (as in sapping one's will to fight with mental powers). They have a specific SFX which is already covered by the other areas.

 

I dunno re psionic and mental, I think over the latter half of the 20th century many consistencies arose. But I could see lumping those in with magic and non-physical energies as "energy".

 

Primarily, I just think HERO needs to take one of a few roads towards creating an "ultimate toolkit: - SFX-based defenses (energy, physical, mental, etc.) and category-based defenses (attack, senses, movement, adjustment, etc.) being two options which have come to mind in this thread.

[Vondy]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

I require players to define any powers sfx at the time of purchase. As such, if they buy power defence defined as "magic defence" then it only works against magic - and if they want to drop a reasonable lim on it I let them

[OddHat]

Re: Power Defence... Ugg

 

As a house rule, I use Power Defense against Magic and Psionics only (not worth a limit) and apply most other forms of transformation attack or drain against RPD or RED. Mental Drains and Transforms go against Mental Defense. Injected drugs, gasses, acid to the eyes, etc. are purchased as NNDs. However, all of that gets complicated, and I can understand just wanting to stick to one defense.