High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I've been running CHAMPIONS games since 1983, Nexus, and have never had the same problem, honestly, except for a few times when I was dumb enough to set up plots that boiled down to, essentially, "the PCs stand around and watch as more powerful NPCs deal with stuff." That was bad GMing on my part, and the players had every reason to complain about it.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying you were guilty of that. Maybe your players just like being the kings of the hill or something. I dunno. I can just say, having uber-powerful good guys in the larger setting generally wasn't a problem, so long as I didn't focus the stories around them.

 

Those are key points: Don't have adventures where the PCs are left just standing around, and don't focus the adventure on the uber-npcs. I'd add from Nexus' post "Don't use the uber-npcs to bludgeon the plot along."

 

I've seen all of these rules broken repeatedly by game designers and GMs. It can easilly ruin a game, and I understand why some GMs would rather avoid the whole mess by not having high power-cannon Heroes around at all.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

If they ask for some reason to send a signal to The Overman's secret arctic headquaters begging for help, it's a little out of genre, but not a problem. The PCs don't get an answer, and in game they have to go it alone. Out of game the GM can remind the players that the campaign is about them, not Overman. In game, the PCs can later find out that Overman was saving Space Station Gamma from falling out of orbit, or that he was in bed with an underage intern from his congressional campaign and is now up on charges. Both can be fun, depending on setting.

 

On the other-hand, saying to your players "Overman has no time to worry about baby-murdering cultists, he has to hang back and wait to handle the serious stuff" belittles the players' actions and makes Overman seem like a monster. It's a matter of the GM's skill in handling the Uber-NPCs; it's easy to do this wrong.

 

Another trap that's easy to fall into is using the titanic battles of the cannon characters to push the meta-plot along, with the PCs having no chance of even beginning to interfere. Aberrant was partially guilty of this, with their first published adventure featuring absurd railroading through uber-NPCs (a White Wolf trademark). This can be avoided; the easiest way is to keep the uner-NPCs off-screen, and to keep in mind areas where the PCs should be able to make changes to the campaign.

 

Yeah, you definitely want to go the first route. Have the PCs see the news footage of Overman doing his thing, so they know he had a reason for not responding (and also make sure to show footage of the PCs doing *their* thing so Overman isn't getting all the thunder) Or maybe have Overman drop by after the battle: "The automated communication system at my headquarters showed that you contacted me while I was out. I apologize for not being there or responding sooner, but I was helping the Super Six with something over in India. It looks like you guys did a great job here on your own, though - and I'm not surprised. From what I've heard about you on the news, you really have your act together. It's great to know there are others on my side who can do a great job, so we can all count on each other when the chips really get down."

 

And yeah, the third trap - the PCs are just along for the ride on a trip that doesn't concern them, or get swept along on the sidelines of someone else's story - truly doth suck.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I'd say you don't do it most of the time because a) you're a superhero, not a helpless normal, and you can't.

 

The first is an issue of player/character personality and genre. Spider-Man calls Reed Richards or Avengers Mansion if he sees an alien invasion, not if the Vulture and Electro team up for a crime spree. Besides, it might take a long time for the FF or Avengers to show, and by then the villains are gone. So, no time to call.. Spidey goes off to save the day.

 

Like I said, when you are "outclassed" and if you lose people are going to die. I'm not talking about Bulldozer challenging you to arm wrestling match and you call in Capt, Badass to do it in your stead. If there is expectation of help, why not seek it out unless have ego problems? Most CHARACTERS don't. They are heroes, but the feel pain (well some of them do) and realize some things are beyond. The PLAYERS are playing a game and likely won't be too happy to do it (and possibly know that can't -really- be Grond in a suit of Power Armor walking Godzilla on a leash).

 

Yes, you can have Superman constantly being off on a mission in space everytime, but that gets really old, really fast.

 

It's sort of like if you play DnD and there are some werewolves terrorizing the village, do the characters ride to the big city and ask Mordenkainen to take care of the problem for them? I'd hope not.

 

If they're all first level newbs that don't stand a chance in hell of doing anything but becoming more werewolves, why wouldn't they? Get help is a perfectly logical responsible to being in trouble. You have to come up with some reason that there is no help available. Or run a chase scene where the werewolves are organized (and/or numerous) and try to stop them from getting said help.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Or maybe your experiences differ greatly than those other people have had. Gaming is a social thing' date=' and it depends on the mix of people involved... and people can, obviously, be very different from each other.[/quote']

 

That is what I've been saying and getting treated like I am delusional or starting role playing yesterday. I have been trying to meet people halfway and being treated like I'm wearing a tinfoil hat for the most part.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Like I said' date=' when you are "outclassed" and if you lose people are going to die. I'm not talking about Bulldozer challenging you to arm wrestling match and you call in Capt, Badass to do it in your stead. If there is expectation of help, why not seek it out unless have ego problems? [/quote']

 

Don't create the expectation of help. Make it clear that everyone is busy. The Avengers are busy. The FF is busy. The PCs are busy. They might run into each other along the way, or occasionally team up, but you can't depend on it. Don't portray the uber-goodguys as always sitting around on their asses sipping cocktails and waiting for the Troubalert to tell them there's something going on, or waiting for the PCs to send out a distress call.

 

If they're all first level newbs that don't stand a chance in hell of doing anything but becoming more werewolves, why wouldn't they? Get help is a perfectly logical responsible to being in trouble. You have to come up with some reason that there is no help available. Or run a chase scene where the werewolves are organized (and/or numerous) and try to stop them from getting said help.

 

Or, pick something other than werewolves for the first-level PCs. A band of kobold raiders or something. Or have a helpful NPC who's too old and feeble to adventure now hand out a few silver daggers... "These are the tools you need... now go take care of the problem."

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Another trap that's easy to fall into is using the titanic battles of the cannon characters to push the meta-plot along, with the PCs having no chance of even beginning to interfere. Aberrant was partially guilty of this, with their first published adventure featuring absurd railroading through uber-NPCs (a White Wolf trademark). This can be avoided; the easiest way is to keep the uner-NPCs off-screen, and to keep in mind areas where the PCs should be able to make changes to the campaign.

 

Have you read/ran "Into the arms of the Angel of Wrath"? for Aberrant?

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I don't think it a nessecary contradiction. Just don't but the high level Gods in and scale your opponents and your world to fit. Its worked for me for 20 years.

 

Yes, but your insisting we not put the powerful characters into a world when that is what fits the comic style. It also doesn't explain why you have no problem with the presence of uber-villains that your low level characters can't hope to compete with.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I don't think I'm diverging from "comic book setting" any more then a RPG conceit of having all the characters on team based on approximately the same amount of points. Secondly' date=' I only borrow material from the mainstream champions universe. I just don't think it needs to clutter up with more uber heroes.[/quote']

 

If you are only borrowing elements, than what does it matter if their are high level heroes in the canon setting?? You simply don't have to borrow them.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Don't create the expectation of help. Make it clear that everyone is busy. The Avengers are busy. The FF is busy. The PCs are busy. They might run into each other along the way, or occasionally team up, but you can't depend on it. Don't portray the uber-goodguys as always sitting around on their asses sipping cocktails and waiting for the Troubalert to tell them there's something going on, or waiting for the PCs to send out a distress call.

 

The existence of the Uber guys presents at least a possibility of help. Unless they are mystic recluses that can't ever be reached or have really good call screeners. Or you can just not have them so the PCs, in character, have to knuckle down and at least try.

 

 

Or, pick something other than werewolves for the first-level PCs. A band of kobold raiders or something. Or have a helpful NPC who's too old and feeble to adventure now hand out a few silver daggers... "These are the tools you need... now go take care of the problem."

 

It was your example, not mine. I'm just pointing out that even heroes seek help. A few silver knives might not cut it. The pivotal thing is will seeking help look like the more logical and better alternative than grandstanding. Being a hero is sacrificing for others, including your ego.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

If you are only borrowing elements' date=' than what does it matter if their are high level heroes in the canon setting?? You simply don't have to borrow them.[/quote']

 

I have used the Champions Universe before, and likely will again. I'd prefer to avoid the problem as I see it. It would make the CU less appealing, IMO and I'd like to avoid that because I enjoy it a great deal the way it is.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think Takofanes can beat EVERY single super in the CU combined' date=' except maybe Dr. Destroyer. 125 800 pt summons are just too gruesome to imagine. 1 or 2 800 pters would be enough to beat a typical 5-6 member 350 pt team by themselves, let alone 125 of them.[/quote']

 

Keep in mind, thats "up to 800 points." Depending on what corpses he has available and how much time, he may not be able to create critters that powerful. Then again, he can instasummon demons of up to 750 points, albeit of minimal actual loyalty. . .

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

If you are only borrowing elements' date=' than what does it matter if their are high level heroes in the canon setting?? You simply don't have to borrow them.[/quote']

 

Righto. That's sort of the approach I take to the Forgotten Realms. In decades of DMing, I've never run a Realms campaign, but I have taken a few bits and pieces here and there and used them. I liked the idea of the Red Wizards of Thay, so I used them, modified a bit. Some of the campaign-specific critters were cool. I used Undermountain as a mega-dungeon, but excised the Realms-related politics and such and gave it a different rationale for being there.

 

I'd never run the Realms, though, because IMHO, it's a perfect example of having too many uber-NPCs running everything. You can't swing a dead kobold around without running into high-level guys sticking their noses into your business.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Also, 350-Point Characters can more likely save the world if they happen to be in the right place in the right time. If the GM wants to do a "save the world" adventure with those guys, he or she has to either a1) make sure the heroes are the ones who just happen to be there, or a2) create a logical reason why nobody else can get there first; and make sure this particular world-threat is one the PCs can indeed handle (i.e., ending the threat does not require a fist-fight with Dr. Destroyer); and c) leave it to the PCs to handle.

 

In contrast, characters of 750+ points can often detect the world-threats and get there almost immediately. But to do that, they have to be busy watching out for such threats, and they're going to be kept very busy by them - which is why they aren't available to handle some of the other threats (see a2, above).

 

And conversely, all those 350ers dealing with lower level threats are bound to run across truely dangerous plots that got past the radar of the big leaguers at least occasionally.

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Have you read/ran "Into the arms of the Angel of Wrath"? for Aberrant?

 

Nope, I stopped buying supplements after a while. Didn't like a game world with so little official room for the players. I still can't think of the invincible bartender in the Amp Room without flinching.

I did however run plenty of Aberant games using Hero system and my own tweaked version of that world ...

 

So would you reccomend that title?

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Yes' date=' but your insisting we not put the powerful characters into a world when that is what fits the comic style. It also doesn't explain why you have no problem with the presence of uber-villains that your low level characters can't hope to compete with.[/quote']

 

I can scale them back, use them as the plot devices they are (Dr Destroyer can exist, he just doesn't have to show up until I think they are ready or I have plot device means for them to beat him). I've found most players actually don't mind high powered villains. They are expected. They just expect to be able to eventually defeat them. High Level Heroes outshine the PCs in "their" ballpark. Though just to add more feul to the fire, I think the power level for Champions has gotten a little stupid high, but that is a topic for another flamewar.

 

And I am not insisting that "we" meaning you and those that agree with your not put anything in your games. You can go hog wild with high level Heroes if you want. I would prefer they not be cannononical and written into the setting in official books.

[Chuckg]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

And conversely' date=' all those 350ers dealing with lower level threats are bound to run across truely dangerous plots that got past the radar of the big leaguers at least occasionally.[/quote']

 

There's even an example in canon.

 

Canonically, the Battle of Detroit started when the kids from Ravenswood Academy stumbled over Destroyer's secret base, and managed to live long enough, despite the opposition, to a) get the hell gone and call in the cavalry.

 

Some might call that 'acting like sidekicks'. I call that 'getting into the history books'.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I guess I'm just making it up then or I just suck. Whatever. I guess I should take my lame ass elsewhere. Whereever bad gms go to die.

 

No, its entirely possible the problem lies with your *players*; specifically, them having false expectations of what 350 points gets you. And no, it doesn't get you alot; all you have to do is compare the powers and skills created with various benchmarks to demonstrate this.

 

However, if the players are so oversensitive that they can't tolerate their being anybody bigger and better in the campaign world, then they are being unreasonable.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Nope, I stopped buying supplements after a while. Didn't like a game world with so little official room for the players. I still can't think of the invincible bartender in the Amp Room without flinching.

I did however run plenty of Aberant games using Hero system and my own tweaked version of that world ...

 

So would you reccomend that title?

 

Oh no, definately not. Its a classic example of White Wolf rail roading. The high point (In some opinions, anyway) is a fight between Divis Mal and Ceatus Pax. A fight in the which (regardlness of their level) are so throuroughly outclassed that all they can do is stand there and watch in awe. And then Mal, who wins a flawless victory proceeds to finish the scenario, basically pat the players on the head if they try to interact with them and say the equivalent of "Get back to me when you grow up." then vanish with Teragen in poof of light.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

The existence of the Uber guys presents at least a possibility of help. Unless they are mystic recluses that can't ever be reached or have really good call screeners. Or you can just not have them so the PCs' date=' in character, have to knuckle down and at least try. [/quote'] You ignore the other reasons to have high-level PCs around, even if not reliably available. Things like:

1) Someone to pull the PCs' fat out of the fire when they really do screw up, particularly through no real fault of their own. One has to use this sparingly, of course, or else the PCs feel they are at no real risk, but it can be appropriate on rare occaions.

 

2) Someone to keep the PCs in line if they go overboard - or to go after the PCs if some villain frames the PCs.

 

3) Sometimes even the big guys need help. Captain Uber might be able to juggle cars, but maybe he isn't a super-scientist or mega-detective, and maybe one of the PCs is. This is a good thing to do on occasion, as it shows that everyone has their part to play, and everyone needs help sometimes.

 

I'm just pointing out that even heroes seek help. A few silver knives might not cut it. The pivotal thing is will seeking help look like the more logical and better alternative than grandstanding. Being a hero is sacrificing for others, including your ego.

 

It also means taking risks and being brave. If you are putting reasonable challenges out there and the PCs won't tackle them - if they're assuming the assistance and resources they have on hand won't be enough - maybe they'd be better off playing blacksmiths or city guards than heroes. Unless you have a *horde* of werewolves (i.e., assuming you've scaled the challenge appropriately for the heroes), if a group of low-level PCs is handed a bunch of silver daggers to complement the skills and abilities they already have that will work just fine vs. lycanthropes (tracking, spells, etc.), they're being weenies if they don't give it a shot on their own before running off to Elminster. Meanwhile, farmers are getting eaten because the PCs aren't doing their job.

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Nope, I stopped buying supplements after a while. Didn't like a game world with so little official room for the players. I still can't think of the invincible bartender in the Amp Room without flinching.

I did however run plenty of Aberant games using Hero system and my own tweaked version of that world ...

 

So would you reccomend that title?

 

Just Googled for "Into the arms of the Angel of Wrath." That is one of the pieces from Aberrant Worldwide Phase I that I disliked. Great setting, some really crappy modules.

 

Edit: Just saw this post.

 

Oh no, definately not. Its a classic example of White Wolf rail roading. The high point (In some opinions, anyway) is a fight between Divis Mal and Ceatus Pax. A fight in the which (regardlness of their level) are so throuroughly outclassed that all they can do is stand there and watch in awe. And then Mal, who wins a flawless victory proceeds to finish the scenario, basically pat the players on the head if they try to interact with them and say the equivalent of "Get back to me when you grow up." then vanish with Teragen in poof of light.

 

Fully agreed. Lousy "adventure" design.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Those are key points: Don't have adventures where the PCs are left just standing around, and don't focus the adventure on the uber-npcs. I'd add from Nexus' post "Don't use the uber-npcs to bludgeon the plot along."

 

I've seen all of these rules broken repeatedly by game designers and GMs. It can easilly ruin a game, and I understand why some GMs would rather avoid the whole mess by not having high power-cannon Heroes around at all.

 

Except that, again, the very same problems can happen with high powered canon *villains*. The objection is equally applicable to both.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

No, its entirely possible the problem lies with your *players*; specifically, them having false expectations of what 350 points gets you. And no, it doesn't get you alot; all you have to do is compare the powers and skills created with various benchmarks to demonstrate this.

 

*shrug* I've found 350 point characters, particularly with access to powers to be rather capable unless you make the entire world up on 500+ points. Like I said, creatively played and well designed 350 or so character can be impressive, particularly in "real world" terms.

 

And it hasn't been one group of players. Its been many groups of players, at least a dozen seperate groups so its not like one incident I'm basing my opinion on.

 

However, if the players are so oversensitive that they can't tolerate their being anybody bigger and better in the campaign world, then they are being unreasonable.

 

I don't think not wanting to be overshadowed is unreasonable. You've only played in a game where you ARE the biggest boys on the block so it hasn't been a problem for you.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

That is what I've been saying and getting treated like I am delusional or starting role playing yesterday. I have been trying to meet people halfway and being treated like I'm wearing a tinfoil hat for the most part.

 

The problem is that, while I can see your point of view and where it comes from, I fail to see how it has any bearing on the ultimate question of whether the canon source material should have high level NPC heroes in it. After all, you've already said you don't use the canon material except to steal ideas and pieces from it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I have used the Champions Universe before' date=' and likely will again. I'd prefer to avoid the problem as I see it. It would make the CU less appealing, IMO and I'd like to avoid that because I enjoy it a great deal the way it is.[/quote']

 

The thing is, "the way it is" does not make any sense at all. There already are uber-villains; do you delete them from the setting when you use the Champs U??

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Except that' date=' again, the very same problems can happen with high powered canon *villains*. The objection is equally applicable to both.[/quote']

 

True enough. That's why I keep Takofanes trapped in another dimension in my campaigns, and tone Destroyers personal power down, and tweak everyone ...

 

House rules are darn useful.