High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

[proditor]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Which is exactly how a good campaign involving high level NPCs is supposed to work. Those high powered heroes don't just explain the settings' continued existence' date=' they also give the players something to aim for, a goal to reach. "One day, Dr Celsius will be as great a hero as his idol, Professor Intrepid."[/quote']Agreed. I might have missed something earlier. I do want the high level guys published as I think it tends to lend a certain gravitas to the campiagn world and my days of making every hero on the planet went away when I entered the work force. I'm just getting too old and lazy. Besides, I still have to convert/paint my groups minis in my "free time" as it is.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Well, sorta, yeah. Let me give an example that isn't particularly germaine at first, but it should draw parallels nicely.

 

My Girlfriend was running a World of Darkness plot in a BIG Vampire game. The plot was a small "Get your candidate elected mayor" thing. It was basically an exercise in RP for the Camarilla who had it all buy sewn up. Except...the Sabbat started a methodical and comprehensive campaign to discredit the Cammie mayor and get their guy elected. The cammies did nothing since they were sure they would win. They didn't and the Sabbat got city hall.

 

The parrallel is that a good thinking group of heroes doesn't (or shouldn't need) masses of points to save the day. A group of smart thinking PC's should be able to throw all the right monkey wrenchs to save the day. Just my opinion mind you, but it's worked for me and my groups.

 

It can work, but its a delicate balancing act.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

And if they don't want to play mega heroes because they're not comfortable with that power level or what have you and still would like to be relevant what then?

Play as hero team in a smaller city with few heroic defenders. Fill a nitch roll, like mystic protectors. Dedicate oneself to fighting street crime primarily.

 

Or, "cope until you have the experience to handle a high level of play, and quit your whining." You can't have it both ways.

 

Opinions vary but there are some that just don't like 600+ character builds. Personally, I'm one of them. I think they just get to be too much. I'm not going to tell anyone that can't play on that level, but I don't think mine is bad either or has to be relegated to "loser" status.

 

See afforementioned comment about "wanting it both ways." The Champions Universe is supposed to roughly represent a super hero comic world, specifically, a Bronze Age one. That includes the presence of heroes of varying levels, including really powerful ones. If your players are utterly insistent that they want to play low level heroes but have high setting significance, your going to have to work up a different setting.

[Powerhouse]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

In the CU as is, there is a definite need for higher power characters to explain why it's still around and unconquered. A team of 350 pt characters isn't going to get the job done, as noted.

 

Now admittedly, being smart or relying on plot devices (ala Ultimate Nullifier) can help out every now and then but sooner or later Gravitar is going to boost the gravitational constant a factor of 50 and your 350 pointers are going to go SPLAT.

 

Given how large the CU is though, the presence of the Sentinels or Albion shouldn't shadow your characters. These characters can't be everywhere after all and with so many villains plotting you need all the help you can get. Evil just needs "one good day" (as noted by Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer) to suceed and it's up to ALL heroes to see that doesn't happen.

 

Finally, you don't have to weigh in at 1000 pts to save the world. I remember the Baxter series of the New Teen Titans when Trigon transformed the world along with most of its defenders (including the JLA). Ultimately it was the Teen Titans (definitely clocking in at less points than teh JLA) who won the day. It can come down to be the best suited for the job (ie you have the magic, tech, or personal relationship with the threat) or being in the right place at the right time to be the ones to save the world.

 

Edit: one other thing. If you want a lower point total for starting characters but want them to be more important in the world, you can always change the setting by making them either the first supers to come around or at least the new wave of heroes where the old one are dead or retired. In this case, the 350 pt team can also be this world's JLA/Avengers and Dr. Destroyer can be built on 800 pts and still be a credible threat to the world.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Neither of which is negated by the presence of high powered heroes. OTOH, you can't use this matter to solve the issue of megavillains, because then it render the differences between villains moot.

 

My big point is that it is a delicate matter to handle well with some groups. If you want to include high level NPCs, then by all means you should, but if you want to ignore them, I think that's cool too. In other words, they're not a "bad" idea I just don't they are required nor are they without a potential negative impact.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Play as hero team in a smaller city with few heroic defenders. Fill a nitch roll, like mystic protectors. Dedicate oneself to fighting street crime primarily.

 

Or, "cope until you have the experience to handle a high level of play, and quit your whining." You can't have it both ways.

 

See afforementioned comment about "wanting it both ways." The Champions Universe is supposed to roughly represent a super hero comic world, specifically, a Bronze Age one. That includes the presence of heroes of varying levels, including really powerful ones. If your players are utterly insistent that they want to play low level heroes but have high setting significance, your going to have to work up a different setting.

 

Then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[ChuckB]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

The thing is' date=' if they are playing 350 point characters, they should *expect* to be outstripped by the guys who take on Gravitar on even terms. Its like playing 1st level D&D characters, and acting surprised that the warrior king of your nation can kick your ass.[/quote']

 

Wow. Couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I (and most players I know) don't play Champs to be second-stringers. We usually expect to be THE main heroes. Does adding a 750 pt. NPC hero group really add anything positive to the game ? What is that supposed to prove ?

 

And truth be told, a 1st level D&D character running across a presumably high-level warrior-king just smacks of amateurish or bad game-mastering.

[Enforcer84]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

 

Wow. Couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I (and most players I know) don't play Champs to be second-stringers. We usually expect to be THE main heroes. Does adding a 750 pt. NPC hero group really add anything positive to the game ? What is that supposed to prove ?

 

And truth be told, a 1st level D&D character running across a presumably high-level warrior-king just smacks of amateurish or bad game-mastering.

So does beginning level heroes wanting to be the big guns, doesn't it?

 

You know...and this isn't directed at anyone here...I find it amusing to hear people talk down Munchkins and PowerGamers ...literally wading through pages of arguments over whether a "Brick" should be allowed to have a DEX higher than 15 or not at one point. Then I come to this thread and listen to a different group of people upset because someone wants High Level NPC's and that their PC's should take a back seat or something...What about the role playing oppotunities? Why do the PC's always have to be the JLA? Why can't they start out as the Titans and work their way up?

 

It's two different discussions to be sure...I just marvel at the fact that there is such a wide bredth of personal styles and prejudices. It's cool.

 

Carry on.

[proditor]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I'd +rep you for the post Enforcer, but I apparently have to hit some other folks first. Go Teen Titans!!

[megaplayboy]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think the iconic NPC heroes should be a resource available to GMs running a CU campaign, mainly because the NPC master villains and some of the villain teams are so dang powerful. It just doesn't make sense that no high level heroes exist...

only a novice GM (or a really bad one) would use the NPCs to overshadow the PCs....

 

otherwise, the question is, what 350 point team of heroes is going to stop Takofanes, Dr. D, etc.? What, the villains put their plans on hold until the PCs gain 100+xp?

[Enforcer84]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I could take a team of 350 pt characters and beat Tokafanes...I'd be a team of about 100 of them though

 

 

I'd like to see some big guns in the Official Hero Universe, simply because I don't want to have to make them all myself

[Pulsar]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

In my opinion, having higher level heros is to be expected, as far as having heros overshadowed by an 800 or 1000 point hero does not make sense. Is Batman overshadowed by Superman? Does Thor overshadow Captain America? It seems to me that at least in the comics hero groups are not all one level but everyone contributes thier best and because of that they triumph, usually against opponents or odds that they should not be able to, in the comics that is thier strength, diversity.

Every hero or group has a niche, and the higher powered heros protect the planet or the reality, where as the lower level heros protect a city or even just thier block. As heros grow they protect more growing to possibly a state or region, to the country, to the big leagues where they are welcomed later.

To assist a higher level hero might be a major adventure, or they may get involved when the big leaguer gets whalloped and they come to assist, even if its to take the heat off for a moment so he can "get his breath" and get back into the fight.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

It isn't, to me at least, that I want my PCs to always be the JLA, its that I don't want them to unimportant peons that are constantly taking a backseat to NPCs. I think think the PCs should be doing most of the on camera world saving to be done in a superhero game. Its a difficult middle ground to strike. I have my way, I would imagine other people have their's.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Well, sorta, yeah. Let me give an example that isn't particularly germaine at first, but it should draw parallels nicely.

 

My Girlfriend was running a World of Darkness plot in a BIG Vampire game. The plot was a small "Get your candidate elected mayor" thing. It was basically an exercise in RP for the Camarilla who had it all buy sewn up. Except...the Sabbat started a methodical and comprehensive campaign to discredit the Cammie mayor and get their guy elected. The cammies did nothing since they were sure they would win. They didn't and the Sabbat got city hall.

 

The parrallel is that a good thinking group of heroes doesn't (or shouldn't need) masses of points to save the day. A group of smart thinking PC's should be able to throw all the right monkey wrenchs to save the day. Just my opinion mind you, but it's worked for me and my groups.

 

Quite true, in the case of villainous plots. However, it doesn't work so well when dealing with more straightforward matters, like enraged foiled villains coming to kill you.

 

To use a Vampire example, it would be like the Camarilla elder of the appropriate clan deciding the personally kill the entire coterie. Likewise, or even more so, while 350 point characters could certainly foil at least some types of plots by even megavillains, if said megavillain gets pissed and decides to just plain come and kill you, your choices are run or die. And run isn't always a separate choice, just a difference in details. . .

[Chuckg]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Isn't the whole point of the superheroic condition, one of its prime genre conditions, that anyone can make a difference?

 

This is what I don't get, at all. This massive insecurity that if any superheroic NPC in the world exists who is more powerful than you, then suddenly, you are irrelevant.

 

And yet, at the same time, starting PCs should still be 350 points.

 

If you want to be the most powerful in the world, then fine, go right ahead and ladle on the points. If you don't want to be, then don't.

 

But quit insisting that 350 points 'should be' JLA level, when by any reasonable reading of the #'s, it *can't* be.

 

And that whole "super-powered janitor" thing... wow, my brain sprained on that one.

 

Suppose that you, 350 points of Beginner Lad, save a whole roomful of people's lives from the savage attack of the Steel Commando, a 350-point villain. You then go on, the next day, to stop Lazer from killing the mayor.

 

Would your PC be able to look any of those NPCs in the eyes, whether it be the mayor or just a random bystander, and say 'Because I wasn't Superman, and my opponent wasn't Doctor Destroyer, your life is not relevant. Neither was my life relevant. I was just the janitor... and you were just the trash.'

 

Somehow, I sort of doubt that's superheroic genre.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Which is why in my post on the subject I came out in favor of having high-end heroes around.

 

I also stressed not letting them steal the PCs thunder, and not using them as a club to railroad the players (see Aberrant).

 

I disagree with your assertion that 350 point characters should not be saving the world, but then in your games you're free to GM as you'd like.

 

Ah, okay. Well, to be specific, I don't doubt that 350ers *can* save the world, they just can't do so reliably, and have poor ability to deal with direct confrontation. Thus, good for stopping things like "VIPER trying to sneak mind-control drugs in the city water supply," not so good for stopping things like "Takofanes appears and starting knocking down skyscrapers."

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Agreed. I might have missed something earlier. I do want the high level guys published as I think it tends to lend a certain gravitas to the campiagn world and my days of making every hero on the planet went away when I entered the work force. I'm just getting too old and lazy. Besides' date=' I still have to convert/paint my groups minis in my "free time" as it is. [/quote']

 

Heh, quite true. Making new characters is hard work. Whats more, we *know* DOJ can do great characters; its just we don't get any chance to see their take on epic heroes, as well as villains.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Isn't the whole point of the superheroic condition, one of its prime genre conditions, that anyone can make a difference?

 

This is what I don't get, at all. This massive insecurity that if any superheroic NPC in the world exists who is more powerful than you, then suddenly, you are irrelevant.

 

And yet, at the same time, starting PCs should still be 350 points.

 

If you want to be the most powerful in the world, then fine, go right ahead and ladle on the points. If you don't want to be, then don't.

 

But quit insisting that 350 points 'should be' JLA level, when by any reasonable reading of the #'s, it *can't* be.

 

And that whole "super-powered janitor" thing... wow, my brain sprained on that one.

 

Suppose that you, 350 points of Beginner Lad, save a whole roomful of people's lives from the savage attack of the Steel Commando, a 350-point villain. You then go on, the next day, to stop Lazer from killing the mayor.

 

Would your PC be able to look any of those NPCs in the eyes, whether it be the mayor or just a random bystander, and say 'Because I wasn't Superman, and my opponent wasn't Doctor Destroyer, your life is not relevant. Neither was my life relevant. I was just the janitor... and you were just the trash.'

 

Somehow, I sort of doubt that's superheroic genre.

 

I haven't said 350 point character should be "JLA" level powerwise, they can be depending on the campaign that important to the setting. For example, if you are the ONLY super available for a situation, suddenly you are -really- important. I have said and continue to say the PCs shouldn't be overshadowed, even by "big points" NPCs and that that can be difficult to pull off. It takes experience and even hand at gming. For some its easier to handwave their existence. I tend to write my own setting and scale Major NPCs back. There are several ways to handle, none of them are particularly easy.

 

Edit: Speaking for myself, I'm not talking about the character's feelings on the purpose of their existence. I'm talking about the players feelings about the game overall. Sometimes two very different things.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

In the CU as is, there is a definite need for higher power characters to explain why it's still around and unconquered. A team of 350 pt characters isn't going to get the job done, as noted.

 

Now admittedly, being smart or relying on plot devices (ala Ultimate Nullifier) can help out every now and then but sooner or later Gravitar is going to boost the gravitational constant a factor of 50 and your 350 pointers are going to go SPLAT.

 

Given how large the CU is though, the presence of the Sentinels or Albion shouldn't shadow your characters. These characters can't be everywhere after all and with so many villains plotting you need all the help you can get. Evil just needs "one good day" (as noted by Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer) to suceed and it's up to ALL heroes to see that doesn't happen.

 

Finally, you don't have to weigh in at 1000 pts to save the world. I remember the Baxter series of the New Teen Titans when Trigon transformed the world along with most of its defenders (including the JLA). Ultimately it was the Teen Titans (definitely clocking in at less points than teh JLA) who won the day. It can come down to be the best suited for the job (ie you have the magic, tech, or personal relationship with the threat) or being in the right place at the right time to be the ones to save the world.

 

Edit: one other thing. If you want a lower point total for starting characters but want them to be more important in the world, you can always change the setting by making them either the first supers to come around or at least the new wave of heroes where the old one are dead or retired. In this case, the 350 pt team can also be this world's JLA/Avengers and Dr. Destroyer can be built on 800 pts and still be a credible threat to the world.

 

As an aside loosely linked to this idea: Lets say your characters, and their peers, are 350ers, but the first new generation of heroes in a while. Thus, they are the big guys, despite low level.

 

However, what happens to these characters over the next 5, 10, 15 years of game time?? They get experience, they grow, they develop, they become more powerful.

 

Pretty soon, those beginning level heroes *are* 750 point powerhouses, the icons for a new generation.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

My big point is that it is a delicate matter to handle well with some groups. If you want to include high level NPCs' date=' then by all means you should, but if you want to ignore them, I think that's cool too. In other words, they're not a "bad" idea I just don't they are required nor are they without a potential negative impact.[/quote']

 

However, if thats the case, then their presence in canon products isn't really problematic, since you can always ignore them, assuming they are off doing whatever they do. IOW, this isn't an argument for *not* including them.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

 

Wow. Couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I (and most players I know) don't play Champs to be second-stringers. We usually expect to be THE main heroes. Does adding a 750 pt. NPC hero group really add anything positive to the game ? What is that supposed to prove ?

 

And truth be told, a 1st level D&D character running across a presumably high-level warrior-king just smacks of amateurish or bad game-mastering.

 

If you want to play THE main heroes, then go ahead, play them. . . at the appropriate point value. And the very same logic re: high level warrior-king types applies to high-level heroes- you don't run across them without a reason in a campaign, if you are low level.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I could take a team of 350 pt characters and beat Tokafanes...I'd be a team of about 100 of them though

 

 

I'd like to see some big guns in the Official Hero Universe, simply because I don't want to have to make them all myself

 

Actually, I don't think a team of 100 could do it, either. Mostly because there'd be almost no way to bring them all to bear, while that high a concentration would be just asking for an AoE attack.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

However' date=' if thats the case, then their presence in canon products isn't really problematic, since you can always ignore them, assuming they are off doing whatever they do. IOW, this isn't an argument for *not* including them.[/quote']

 

I've always found it easier to write something in, than write it out so I like things they way they are now. Basically, it works for me.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

In my opinion, having higher level heros is to be expected, as far as having heros overshadowed by an 800 or 1000 point hero does not make sense. Is Batman overshadowed by Superman? Does Thor overshadow Captain America? It seems to me that at least in the comics hero groups are not all one level but everyone contributes thier best and because of that they triumph, usually against opponents or odds that they should not be able to, in the comics that is thier strength, diversity.

Every hero or group has a niche, and the higher powered heros protect the planet or the reality, where as the lower level heros protect a city or even just thier block. As heros grow they protect more growing to possibly a state or region, to the country, to the big leagues where they are welcomed later.

To assist a higher level hero might be a major adventure, or they may get involved when the big leaguer gets whalloped and they come to assist, even if its to take the heat off for a moment so he can "get his breath" and get back into the fight.

 

Agreed, except that the examples you used are a little off. Batman is probably built on about as many points as Superman, and Cap ain't much further behind. Its just they have points spent on skills, superskills, equipment, perks, etc, rather than blatant superpowers.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

It isn't' date=' to me at least, that I want my PCs to always be the JLA, its that I don't want them to unimportant peons that are constantly taking a backseat to NPCs. I think think the PCs should be doing most of the on camera world saving to be done in a superhero game. Its a difficult middle ground to strike. I have my way, I would imagine other people have their's.[/quote']

 

I agree with your sentiment, in that sense. What I disagree with, however, is that this necessitates, or even is particularly aided by, the absence of high level heroes. If anything has been taught by Marvel NYC, its that you can *never* count on the Big Guys being around when Spider-man is fighting for his life.