High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

[Powerhouse]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

"As an aside loosely linked to this idea: Lets say your characters, and their peers, are 350ers, but the first new generation of heroes in a while. Thus, they are the big guys, despite low level.

 

However, what happens to these characters over the next 5, 10, 15 years of game time?? They get experience, they grow, they develop, they become more powerful.

 

Pretty soon, those beginning level heroes *are* 750 point powerhouses, the icons for a new generation."

 

Exactly. I create the Silver Knight universe (I posted a bit on it once or twice) that notes that there had been several earlier generations of hero but they were either dead, retired, or "other" for the most part. Thus, with you have the background of a Marvel, DC, or CU but still let a group of newbies take center stage as earth's greater heroes even if it's by virtue of being pretty much the *only* group.

 

Lots of fun, especially considering how they can and will grow. Writing up Lady Silver from a 350 pointer to archmage shows how things change though her write-up is probably a little more than I would actually have in the storyline. Instead, it was designed to showcase a CU archmage which is probably a little more powerful than I would write.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I've always found it easier to write something in' date=' than write it out so I like things they way they are now. Basically, it works for me. [/quote']

 

The thing is, you don't actually have to write them out of the setting. Just out of the script of your adventures.

 

While it *is* alot of work to create high quality characters to populate a world.

[The Watcher]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

If you are going to have 350 point heroes be the regular saviors of the world, don't put them in a world full of 1000 point villains.

 

Anyway, I think fears of PC Heroes being overshadowed by more powerful NPC's existent in the campaign world aren't warranted. Just because they're more powerful doesn't mean they are going to render the actions of the PC's in a campaign irrelevant.

 

Look at the comics. Spiderman shares a world with the Avengers, Dr. Strange, and any number of heroes more powerful than him. But do they overshadow him in his own book? No, because they aren't the focus of his book. He and the villains and situations he's dealing with are.

 

Samething with a campaign. Just because there are more powerful heroes in the background of the world doesn't mean that they will interfere with or overshadow the adventures and actions of the PC's.

[ChuckB]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

So does beginning level heroes wanting to be the big guns' date=' doesn't it?[/color']

I don't equate a 350(or whatever) pt. character as necessarily making him a "beginning level hero" although he could be and if you're playing a superhero in a superhero rpg, you usually are a "big gun".

What about the role playing oppotunities? Why do the PC's always have to be the JLA? Why can't they start out as the Titans and work their way up?

If the GM wants to run a sidekick-level game and the players are ok with it, fine.

[Chuckg]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

If you are going to have 350 point heroes be the regular saviors of the world' date=' don't put them in a world full of 1000 point villains. [/quote']

 

Exactly. They're already overshadowed that way -- by the villains.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

The thing is, you don't actually have to write them out of the setting. Just out of the script of your adventures.

 

While it *is* alot of work to create high quality characters to populate a world.

 

I do (and have had to) if my players are feeling overshadowed or pointless. Particularly if logically, these ultra powerful heroes -should- be there or should be selected for whatever I want to happen to the PCs.

 

Its not allot of work for me to create high quality (high point?) character to populate a world. I don't stat them unless they are antagonists.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I don't equate a 350(or whatever) pt. character as necessarily making him a "beginning level hero" although he could be and if you're playing a superhero in a superhero rpg, you usually are a "big gun".

Then you aren't looking at the capabilities 350 points buys your character. The short answer being: damn little, by comic book standards.

If the GM wants to run a sidekick-level game and the players are ok with it, fine.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Look at the comics. Spiderman shares a world with the Avengers, Dr. Strange, and any number of heroes more powerful than him. But do they overshadow him in his own book? No, because they aren't the focus of his book. He and the villains and situations he's dealing with are.

 

As has been said before some of the people involved in this this isn't a comic book, its a role playing game. Somethings that work in comics don't work in this medium. In my experience, this has been one of them. YMM (and clearly does)V.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I do (and have had to) if my players are feeling overshadowed or pointless. Particularly if logically, these ultra powerful heroes -should- be there or should be selected for whatever I want to happen to the PCs.

 

Its not allot of work for me to create high quality (high point?) character to populate a world. I don't stat them unless they are antagonists.

 

In that case, perhaps the problem is the expectations of the players. At which point, we return to the "If you want to be a high importance low power comic-style character, you are contradicting yourself" quandary.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

As has been said before some of the people involved in this this isn't a comic book' date=' its a role playing game. Somethings that work in comics don't work in this medium. In my experience, this has been one of them. YMM (and clearly does)V.[/quote']

 

If your diverging from a comic book type setting to this extent, though, why are you using the default Champions Universe?? Especially given the native villains, its not well suited to the idea that only low level heroes exist.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

In that case' date=' perhaps the problem is the expectations of the players. At which point, we return to the "If you want to be a high importance low power comic-style character, you are contradicting yourself" quandary.[/quote']

 

I don't think it a nessecary contradiction. Just don't but the high level Gods in and scale your opponents and your world to fit. Its worked for me for 20 years.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

If your diverging from a comic book type setting to this extent' date=' though, why are you using the default Champions Universe?? Especially given the native villains, its not well suited to the idea that only low level heroes exist.[/quote']

 

I don't think I'm diverging from "comic book setting" any more then a RPG conceit of having all the characters on team based on approximately the same amount of points. Secondly, I only borrow material from the mainstream champions universe. I just don't think it needs to clutter up with more uber heroes.

[freakboy6117]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Well this is an interesting discussion I’m a pretty much heroes novice but I’d love to see some high level heroes, I'd also like to see some really low level people 150-200 point supers perhaps.

 

Its about seeing how to put together interesting characters and also for the role-playing opportunities. Some of the best heros and villains in comics are low powered but interestingly portrayed characters and so many of the great plots are about young inexperienced or les powerful heroes striving to meet up to the expectations of there idols remove the upper limit and what do you have a world where your heroes have nothing to aspire too.

 

Also it removes the possibilities of plots with heroes as forces for change not just proactive force.

High-powered NPC's are a helpful tool for GMs as well keeping the players in line as plot hooks and devices as a means to get them to a certain place.

 

Without high-powered NPCs whom do you send after them when they are wrongfully accused?

How can you have that emotional conflict when one team member is asked to join the JLA equivalent does he leave his old friends or does he stick with them and miss out on joining the big leagues?

Who can your heroes turn too for advice without elder statesmen of the super world or for that matter who will act as their mentors?

Who can you midn control and force the players into the most difficult fight of there lives

 

I can think of some great potential stories from mixing high-powered NPCs into the mix

And more information even without stats (but you know some day you might need them player throws a punch at the guy for example) would spring board even more ideas for me.

 

Like the one this thread inspired. Imagine a one shot game where the players are asked to watch the champions superman equivalents dog or water the plants in his fortress of solitude while he’s out of the solar system for a few days.

 

For example I’d like to see a full write up of the golden avenger so I could use him in a Nick fury type role as a target for a villains plot as soemoen the players had to rescue or what ever sure I could write my won but tnhen I wouldn’t get to steal all the good ideas some one else has come up with.

[Gary]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I could take a team of 350 pt characters and beat Tokafanes...I'd be a team of about 100 of them though

 

 

I'd like to see some big guns in the Official Hero Universe, simply because I don't want to have to make them all myself

 

 

I think Takofanes can beat EVERY single super in the CU combined, except maybe Dr. Destroyer. 125 800 pt summons are just too gruesome to imagine. 1 or 2 800 pters would be enough to beat a typical 5-6 member 350 pt team by themselves, let alone 125 of them.

[Gary]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Bear in mind that typical 350 pt characters can't even deal with regular military unless they have exotic powers such as desolid or mental powers. I just can't see 350 pters as being the most powerful heroes in a typical world.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

It isn't' date=' to me at least, that I want my PCs to always be the JLA, its that I don't want them to unimportant peons that are constantly taking a backseat to NPCs. I think think the PCs should be doing most of the on camera world saving to be done in a superhero game. Its a difficult middle ground to strike. I have my way, I would imagine other people have their's.[/quote']

 

A lot of this has to do with the GM, really.

 

How often do you see Thor show up to save Daredevil when DD gets in deep crap? The one time I can recall Thor showing up *at all* in a DD book was during Miller/Mazzuchelli's "Born Again", in which he showed up more or less after the fact to create a rainstorm and put out a building fire. In the past year, Dr Strange and Mr. Fantastic showed up once - not to pound on his villains, but simply to offer some advice, as DD was taking some actions that suggested he'd gone over the deep end. They were there because it made sense and to maintain the flavor of the setting, not to solve Daredevil's problems for him.

 

Out of Spider-Man's thousands of adventures, he's met just about everyone in the Marvel Universe, yet there have been very few times he's seemed irrelevant to the big picture. Hell, he was the one responsible for defeating Thanos way back when... even though the FF, the Thing, Captain Marvel and Adam Warlock were on scene, too. For that matter, Hawkeye has probably saved the day during more Avengers fights than any other single Avenger - the man has 12d6 Luck, Personal Only, Only To Be In The Right Place At The Right Time... or something like that.

 

If the GM puts players in a situation where they have no choice but to just stand around with their thumbs up their asses watching as Captain Mega, Power Lord and Omni-Man save the world From Dr. Destructoid wielding the Cosmic Duodecohedron, the GM is just guilty of poor storytelling. It sucks in DnD, it sucks in Champions, it sucks in any game. Similarly, if the heroes are built on 350 pts but go out of their way to call in the cosmic guys every time things get tough, they are at fault. If you don't want someone stealing your thunder, don't call in Thor!

 

I'm currently running a very high-level game. The PCs are the most powerful team in the world. There are a handfull of other heroes - mostly reclusive, mystic-master sorts - of even greater power, and a few other NPC solo heroes at more or less the same power level. If they run into Zigzag and Armadillo, it's a bad day for those villains - sort of like Stilt Man running into Thor and Iron man as he rushes out of the bank he just robbed - but they don't have a lot of time to screw around with guys like Armadillo, because they've been going to other dimensions and into space, solving mega-mysteries, hosting royalty from other worlds and stuff like that. I could easily run a group of 350-pointers in the same campaign world - heck, I could even run them in Millennium City, where the New Sentinels have been hanging out a lot - so long as I made sure each had their own things to do. And that isn't hard. There are important things to do at every level.

 

Most of my old campaigns featured uber-powerful heroes in the background somewhere. Mostly they worked out of other cities. In one case, the PC hero team was the midwest branch of a larger team that had teams in NYC and LA. They almost never encountered those guys, and when they did, it was usually as a source of information and to give the campaign a sense of "big picture."

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Ah' date=' okay. Well, to be specific, I don't doubt that 350ers *can* save the world, they just can't do so reliably, and have poor ability to deal with direct confrontation. Thus, good for stopping things like "VIPER trying to sneak mind-control drugs in the city water supply," not so good for stopping things like "Takofanes appears and starting knocking down skyscrapers."[/quote']

 

Also, 350-Point Characters can more likely save the world if they happen to be in the right place in the right time. If the GM wants to do a "save the world" adventure with those guys, he or she has to either a1) make sure the heroes are the ones who just happen to be there, or a2) create a logical reason why nobody else can get there first; and make sure this particular world-threat is one the PCs can indeed handle (i.e., ending the threat does not require a fist-fight with Dr. Destroyer); and c) leave it to the PCs to handle.

 

In contrast, characters of 750+ points can often detect the world-threats and get there almost immediately. But to do that, they have to be busy watching out for such threats, and they're going to be kept very busy by them - which is why they aren't available to handle some of the other threats (see a2, above).

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think I'd best leave this topic alone (though I likely won't being a hot headed pedantic geek) as I am starting to get royally pissed off. I'm not claiming to be the “Old Man on the Mountain†when it comes to Champions, but I have been playing and running the game for almost two decades. I've run and played in several successful campaigns (and I have had my failures. I am not perfect by any stretch) so I am not some idjit that just fell off the yutz wagon. I know enough to realize its matter of scale. Maybe it comes from playing in 250 point days, but 350 point characters don't strike me as "rank newbies" who should be content with stopping purse snatchers and jaywalkers. I've seen what creatively played, well designed teams of 350 pters can do. Its impressive. But, no it doesn't include steam rolling over entire military units. I've been a player in enough games to know what people tend to bitch about and "uber NPCs" specifically when they are used as plot bludgeons and ways to "Keep the players in line" annoy the hell out of allot of people. Maybe its just the people I have played with, but that has been my experience. Yeah, it works in the comics, but comic book characters don’t come with players (and their sometimes fragile, even childish egos attached). If Thor shows up constantly in Daredevil, Daredevil isn’t going to complain. He isn’t going to think “Hey, this guy is way powerful. Why should I bear down and come up with a creative way to face him when I can just call Thor? He seems to have allot of free time!†AFAIAC, it’s a difference in medium. For that matter, I have seen posters shouted down when they use the reasoning “Hey, it works this way in the comics!†why is it so absolutely valid in this case? I'm not making it up for the joy of my intelligence and gming ability being quietly insulted on a public forum.

 

Basically, I have found ultra powerful NPCs to be more trouble than they are worth from a player perspective and it makes my life easier to just handwave their existence. If you don't agree then fine, but you're not going to prove me "wrong" in my opinion since I don't think my personal experiences are hallucinatory or statistical outliers. I like the fact they are not present much in the CU because I don't have to go thru and edit them out when I do use it. But I’m sick of being talked down and treated like an imbecile. I’ve tried to treat other people with respect in regards to their opinion (which are just as valid as mine).

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I've been running CHAMPIONS games since 1983, Nexus, and have never had the same problem, honestly, except for a few times when I was dumb enough to set up plots that boiled down to, essentially, "the PCs stand around and watch as more powerful NPCs deal with stuff." That was bad GMing on my part, and the players had every reason to complain about it.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying you were guilty of that. Maybe your players just like being the kings of the hill or something. I dunno. I can just say, having uber-powerful good guys in the larger setting generally wasn't a problem, so long as I didn't focus the stories around them.

 

Part of the comic genre is that there are even bigger things out there. Even if you're Thor, there's Odin and Zeus. Even if you're Superman, there's the Spectre. Even if you're the Spectre, there's Archangel Michael, and God. Zeus doesn't show up to fight Baron Zemo, though, and God doesn't just smite the Joker and Toyman. The uber-NPCs shouldn't steal the thunder from PCs as long as they're kept off-screen due to being too busy, in space or whatever.

 

Way back when, I did a series of adventures based on "what if the uber-guys were gone? Who'd handle the stuff they normally do?" The big, uber-power team in the world (the Crusaders) had been missing for 5 months now. People started noticing this, and some of their villains decided to take advantage of the sabbatical. The PCs ended up having to find ways to foil the plots of guys WAY out of their league as far as slugfests go. They had to be clever. It was fun.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

 

If the GM puts players in a situation where they have no choice but to just stand around with their thumbs up their asses watching as Captain Mega, Power Lord and Omni-Man save the world From Dr. Destructoid wielding the Cosmic Duodecohedron, the GM is just guilty of poor storytelling. It sucks in DnD, it sucks in Champions, it sucks in any game. Similarly, if the heroes are built on 350 pts but go out of their way to call in the cosmic guys every time things get tough, they are at fault. If you don't want someone stealing your thunder, don't call in Thor!

 

Here's the the thing. If Thor is available and you feel you are outclassed (As its been made clear you are 350 point peon doesn't nessecarily have to be true, all the matter is how it looks to the character.) why wouldn't you call Thor if you could? Role playing wise, not playerwise? Unless you have psych lims like Overconfidence, Gloryhound or "Can't stand to be upstaged"? It would irresponsible to put lives and property in danger by taking on something you can't handle. If you the equivalent of ther neighborhood crime watch and a major gun battle breaks out, you call the cops and, at best, play backup if you have a lick of sense. You don't wade in on your own unless you have no other choice.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I've been running CHAMPIONS games since 1983, Nexus, and have never had the same problem, honestly, except for a few times when I was dumb enough to set up plots that boiled down to, essentially, "the PCs stand around and watch as more powerful NPCs deal with stuff." That was bad GMing on my part, and the players had every reason to complain about it.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying you were guilty of that. Maybe your players just like being the kings of the hill or something. I dunno. I can just say, having uber-powerful good guys in the larger setting generally wasn't a problem, so long as I didn't focus the stories around them.

 

I guess I'm just making it up then or I just suck. Whatever. I guess I should take my lame ass elsewhere. Whereever bad gms go to die.

[Nightfire]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Bear in mind that typical 350 pt characters can't even deal with regular military unless they have exotic powers such as desolid or mental powers. I just can't see 350 pters as being the most powerful heroes in a typical world.

 

In 5th Ed. to have a powerful well rounded character (i.e. more than just powers and the accompanying combat skills) is going to cost in the neighborhood of 500pts.

 

I managed to cobble togethor a reasonably powerful ring slinger for 452pts HE is a computer Programmer who is given a ring by Generic Galactic Protectors to fight evil. Like most 21st century computer geeks, he's no stranger to the gym and as such is a buffed specimen, but the ring gives him a little tweak to be a true superhuman. I could have cheapened him with some more limitations, but A true heavy hitter has a little crippling limitations as possible. The ring can only be pried off out of combat. OF course this is assuming that 75 point powers are considered superpowerful. Ring slinger would still end up in ICU if he went up against Doctory Destroyer alone. He'd be in the morgue (well a member of the undead legion) if he hit Takofanes. To fight in their league (and still lose) he'd need another 200 pts.

 

 

Generic Ring Slinger

STR 20/25

Dex 20/25

Con 20/25

Body 20

Inti 20

Ego 20

Pre 20

Com 20

PD 5

ED 5

SPD 4/6

REC 15

END 50

STUN 46

 

Characteristics 140

Powers

 

35 EC Ring (Oend/OIF Indestructible)

35 Images 4" radius -9 Perception Sight, Radio and Heraing group

36 Flight 33" x4 NCM

35 Force Field 30pd/30ed protects carried Items

 

50 Multipower Ring (OIF)

5 Telekinesis w/fine manipulation (43 Str)

5 EB 15

5 Entangle 7.5d6 7 Def

5 Killing Attack Ranged 5d6

5 Missile Deflection/Reflection in agjecent hex 13 OCV

5 Healing 5d6 Ranged

5 Force Wall 14PD/13ED 5" width

 

5 Flash Defense

5 Lack of Weakness

 

43 Battlesuite "Ring BEarer Enhancement"

(3) +5 STR

(10) +5 DEX

(7) +5 CON

(13) +2 SPD

(10) +2 DCV

 

 

Skills

 

3 Acrobatic

3 Brakfall

3 Computer Programing

2 Cybernetic

2 Robotics

3 Security Systems

2 Research

3 Computer Scientist

3 Skill Enhancer Scientist

0 English (Native)

2 Spanish

2 Russian

 

Powers and Skills Cost 279 + 33 = 312

Total Cost 452

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

But to do that' date=' they have to be busy watching out for such threats, and they're going to be kept very busy by them - which is why they aren't available to handle some of the other threats (see a2, above).[/quote']

 

While I am in favor of having high-powered hoeroes in the background and usually do, this is one of those pieces of comic-book/campaign meta-reasoning that has to be handled carefully.

 

Saying to your players "You have to deal with these cultists, before they sacrifice the first-born daughter of Chow Sing-Chi and release Takofanes from the Shadowlands!" can make for a great game. The PCs are heroes, saving the world from evil.

 

If they ask for some reason to send a signal to The Overman's secret arctic headquaters begging for help, it's a little out of genre, but not a problem. The PCs don't get an answer, and in game they have to go it alone. Out of game the GM can remind the players that the campaign is about them, not Overman. In game, the PCs can later find out that Overman was saving Space Station Gamma from falling out of orbit, or that he was in bed with an underage intern from his congressional campaign and is now up on charges. Both can be fun, depending on setting.

 

On the other-hand, saying to your players "Overman has no time to worry about baby-murdering cultists, he has to hang back and wait to handle the serious stuff" belittles the players' actions and makes Overman seem like a monster. It's a matter of the GM's skill in handling the Uber-NPCs; it's easy to do this wrong.

 

Another trap that's easy to fall into is using the titanic battles of the cannon characters to push the meta-plot along, with the PCs having no chance of even beginning to interfere. Aberrant was partially guilty of this, with their first published adventure featuring absurd railroading through uber-NPCs (a White Wolf trademark). This can be avoided; the easiest way is to keep the uner-NPCs off-screen, and to keep in mind areas where the PCs should be able to make changes to the campaign.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Here's the the thing. If Thor is available and you feel you are outclassed (As its been made clear you are 350 point peon doesn't nessecarily have to be true, all the matter is how it looks to the character.) why wouldn't you call Thor if you could? Role playing wise, not playerwise? Unless you have psych lims like Overconfidence, Gloryhound or "Can't stand to be upstaged"? It would irresponsible to put lives and property in danger by taking on something you can't handle. If you the equivalent of ther neighborhood crime watch and a major gun battle breaks out, you call the cops and, at best, play backup if you have a lick of sense. You don't wade in on your own unless you have no other choice.

 

I'd say you don't do it most of the time because a) you're a superhero, not a helpless normal, and you can't.

 

The first is an issue of player/character personality and genre. Spider-Man calls Reed Richards or Avengers Mansion if he sees an alien invasion, not if the Vulture and Electro team up for a crime spree. Besides, it might take a long time for the FF or Avengers to show, and by then the villains are gone. So, no time to call.. Spidey goes off to save the day.

 

The second is up to the GM. If you don't want Thor to show up, he's not at Avengers Mansion when Spidey calls. Jarvis answers the phone - "I'm sorry, Sir, but the Avengers have been called away to Russia, as it appears the Machinesmith has activated all nukes over there and prepared them for launch." So, Spidey is out of luck. He has to go handle the situation on his own. As the GM, your job is to make sure there's a way that can happen. Don't put the 350-pointers up against Takofanes unless you've built something into the adventure that the characters have a realistic way of figuring out and achieving, and which will cause Tako to go away.

 

What is it that the PCs can't handle? Why do they feel so insecure. Sure, if Scarn the Shaper shows up and starts reconfiguring the city into a giant Hot Wheels track, they might feel outclassed. I'm assuming that's not a regular event, though?

 

It's sort of like if you play DnD and there are some werewolves terrorizing the village, do the characters ride to the big city and ask Mordenkainen to take care of the problem for them? I'd hope not.

 

I should note that when I ran my Street Hero campaign, the PCS were more or less as powerful as anyone in their game world. That was a variant Champions campaign where things like alien invasions just didn't happen, and powers like FTL and Extradimensional Travel didn't exist - at least not on earth. All the PCs were street-level heroes - characters along the line of Batman, Luke Cage, Daredevil and Spider-Man, not Dr. Fate, the Human Torch, Superman or Iron Man. That was the restiction I put on character builds for that setting, and it was one I followed - they fought mystic ninja, evil cultists, villains with animal powers, weapon guys, mad scientists with low-powered robots, wacky theme villains and stuff like that. No alien invasions. No space gods. No Magneto/Brainiac-level villains.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I guess I'm just making it up then or I just suck. Whatever. I guess I should take my lame ass elsewhere. Whereever bad gms go to die.

 

Or maybe your experiences differ greatly than those other people have had. Gaming is a social thing, and it depends on the mix of people involved... and people can, obviously, be very different from each other.