High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

[nexus]

This game up in another thread and seem to derail that one a bit so I felt it would be better to start another thread. The basic question was do you feel a team of High End supers (700+ points) is nessecary to make the Champions Universe workable or do you feel it is a bad idea?

 

Edit:I meant for there to be a poll. Oops....

[megaplayboy]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think a few iconic NPC heroes is a very good idea for the CU, and I'm a little baffled by the reluctance to do this. There are several villains throwing attacks well beyond the capacity of 350 point heroes to withstand.

 

Perhaps one team of 450-600 point NPC heroes in NYC, plus 2-4 iconic heroes of 700+ points would be good.

 

It's just that there are way too many master villains, and it's hard to believe a bunch of 350 pointers could hold them all at bay...

[Chuckg]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

At least, not without holding funerals every other month.

[proditor]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think it's a good idea personally. We got some taste of what the designers think is a good mid to higher level group based on the Sentinels from DH, since most of them were from a 250 point game. I like the idea of getting a peek into what the guys who designed the game think is a workable high end character. I also like to see how people spend their XP.

 

GC provided us with a view of what "starting" high point level PC's could look like, a series of high point NPC's (The modern sentinels, perhaps the justice guys or a revised champions group) would show us what steve et al. have in mind for character growth. It's not like we have to use any of it if we don't like it, but I still remember looking at the revised Seeker in Watchers of the Dragon and going "Oh my God....Steve made Seeker cool!"

[Enforcer84]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think the idea was to avoid players feeling completely outstripped. I do think there should be some...and there are a few mentioned who would qualify (Hyperion of Great Britain come to mind, he went toe to toe with Firewing).

I'd like to see more. Perhaps in future CU books we could see how the Champions have grown.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I would say that that major superteams in the world ( those consisting of experienced characters who serve as the first line of defense against powerful threats ) should consist of people averaging 600-800 points. Not too many of these teams, granted; the only ones like this that the US should have would be the Sentinels and Justice Squadron. Likewise, there should be a a smattering of solo heroes on a similar power scale or slightly higher ( at least one 1000-1100 point hero ), though again, widely dispersed.

 

Note that this is adjustable to circumstances; the Sentinels should probably be on the lower end of that average range, due to lingering aftereffects of the Battle of Detroit, for example.

 

As for the why?? Its already been mentioned: to make the setting credible, and explain why the 350 point beginning level PCs aren't busy dying trying to fight off Takofanes or such.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think it could work. As long as DOJ does not:

 

1. Fill the setting with these types of characters.

 

2. Keeps away for PC actions, even starting level PCs, to feel "relevant" to the campaign and have an impact. That is the biggest stumbling block and one of the reason I only use homebrew worlds. I can make sure the PCs are the relevant that way.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think the idea was to avoid players feeling completely outstripped. I do think there should be some...and there are a few mentioned who would qualify (Hyperion of Great Britain come to mind, he went toe to toe with Firewing).

I'd like to see more. Perhaps in future CU books we could see how the Champions have grown.

 

The thing is, if they are playing 350 point characters, they should *expect* to be outstripped by the guys who take on Gravitar on even terms. Its like playing 1st level D&D characters, and acting surprised that the warrior king of your nation can kick your ass.

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Well, I wouldn't say that they were "necessary," but I wouldn't mind having a few around. The important thing is to make sure that they don't overshadow the PCs. The players' characters should not be feeding from the scraps that fall from the high-end NPCs' table; it should be clear that the PCs are saving the world, and that the NPCs are not able to do it alone.

 

I don't want the insane Silver Age superman, who could have destroyed most of the evils of the world in an afternoon if he'd cared to. I certainly don't want a White Wolf farce, where the bartender at Club Super can wipe up the floor with your entire team because it's more convenient for meta-plot purposes. I don't want an NPC team coming in to save the bacon of the PCs and show the players how little they matter.

 

I would like to see some higher-powered cannon characters to act as background, as occasional allies or patrons, or to act as mentors. Keeping them few and far between would be useful. I'd also love to see more Millenium 8 type teams on the same level as the PCs, and some lower-powered supers around as well, 150 point characters suitable for recruitment as kid-side kicks, romantic interests, street contacts or just for local color. A 5th Ed. Allies book or in depth examination of a hero team would be welomed.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think it could work. As long as DOJ does not:

 

1. Fill the setting with these types of characters.

 

2. Keeps away for PC actions, even starting level PCs, to feel "relevant" to the campaign and have an impact. That is the biggest stumbling block and one of the reason I only use homebrew worlds. I can make sure the PCs are the relevant that way.

 

The easiest way to keep the PCs relevant: have them deal with threats appropriate to their power level. If the big league heroes exist to explain the non-success of the major villains, than obviously, they have to spend most of their time dealing with major villains. Which means they aren't available most of the time to deal with, say, a couple superthugs knocking over a bank, or an average VIPER nest uncovered by the PCs.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

The thing is' date=' if they are playing 350 point characters, they should *expect* to be outstripped by the guys who take on Gravitar on even terms. Its like playing 1st level D&D characters, and acting surprised that the warrior king of your nation can kick your ass.[/quote']

 

Its a different genre and style of game with different expectations. Playing a first level D and D character, you don't ususally expect to Elric or Conan. Playing a comic book character you don't ususally expect to be completely pointless to the setting and expendable.

 

Maybe a better suggestion would be fewer or more scalable supervillains.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Well, I wouldn't say that they were "necessary," but I wouldn't mind having a few around. The important thing is to make sure that they don't overshadow the PCs. The players' characters should not be feeding from the scraps that fall from the high-end NPCs' table; it should be clear that the PCs are saving the world, and that the NPCs are not able to do it alone.

 

I don't want the insane Silver Age superman, who could have destroyed most of the evils of the world in an afternoon if he'd cared to. I certainly don't want a White Wolf farce, where the bartender at Club Super can wipe up the floor with your entire team because it's more convenient for meta-plot purposes. I don't wan an NPC team coming in to save the bacon of the PCs and show the players how little they matter.

 

I would like to see some higher-powered cannon characters to act as background, as occasional allies or patrons, or to act as mentors. Keeping them few and far between would be useful. I'd also love to see more Millenium 8 tyoe teams on the same level as the PCs, and some lower-powered supers around as well, 150 point characters suitable for recruitment as kid-side kicks, romantic interests, street contacts or just for local color. A 5th Ed. Allies book or in depth examination of a hero team would be welomed.

 

I'm sorry, but if you are only 350 points, you shouldn't *expect* to be saving the world. The city, maybe, but not the world.

 

And NPC heroes are incapable of overshadowing the PCs if the story focuses on the PCs. Doesn't mean the PCs story has to be the story of the world, though.

[Enforcer84]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Also, I feel they are good for PC's to meet and know. A group of Heroes that can inspire them and let them know when they have reached the "Big Time" by their closer relations and friendships.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

The easiest way to keep the PCs relevant: have them deal with threats appropriate to their power level. If the big league heroes exist to explain the non-success of the major villains' date=' than obviously, they have to spend most of their time dealing with major villains. Which means they aren't available most of the time to deal with, say, a couple superthugs knocking over a bank, or an average VIPER nest uncovered by the PCs.[/quote']

 

That doesn't really keep them relevant. It makes them basically janitors living in the shadows of NPCs.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Its a different genre and style of game with different expectations. Playing a first level D and D character, you don't ususally expect to Elric or Conan. Playing a comic book character you don't ususally expect to be completely pointless to the setting and expendable.

 

Maybe a better suggestion would be fewer or more scalable supervillains.

 

An even better suggestion: a more clear explanation in the book that 350 points does *NOT* mean you are a major hero, and that if you want to be a big leaguer, design your characters at X points ( 600-800 would be my pick, with 450-600 being a middle ground, roughly ).

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

That doesn't really keep the busy relevant. It makes them basically janitors living in the shadows of NPCs.

 

Then they shouldn't build 350 point characters. They should play a more substantial campaign.

 

This is also ignoring the possibility that a given city may not have many more powerful heroes than the PCs; not every city is Metropolis or ( God forbid ) Marvel NYC.

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I'm sorry, but if you are only 350 points, you shouldn't *expect* to be saving the world. The city, maybe, but not the world.

 

And NPC heroes are incapable of overshadowing the PCs if the story focuses on the PCs. Doesn't mean the PCs story has to be the story of the world, though.

 

I've had 350 point characters save the world many a time. 100 point characters as well. Sometimes being in the right place at the right time means more than being able to juggle tanks. It all depends on how you've designed the adventure.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

An even better suggestion: a more clear explanation in the book that 350 points does *NOT* mean you are a major hero' date=' and that if you want to be a big leaguer, design your characters at X points ( 600-800 would be my pick, with 450-600 being a middle ground, roughly ).[/quote']

 

That would basically be saying one play style is more important and you have to play with mega Heroes even if you don't want to if you want have you PCs adventures actually be important.

 

IMG, I have had 350, even 250 point Heroes save the world. Its a matter of scaling and plot, IME.

[proditor]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think the other issue here is what kind of world are you playing in? Taking Marvel NYC as an example for a sec, are you the Avengers, The Fantastic Four, the X-men or the New Warriors? Each of those groups have saved the world a bunch of times, some just tend to do it before getting bagels and coffee.

 

You don't have to be the biggest guy on the block to be relevant in the world, you just have to have a GM that understands that their mission is to make sure that the PC's do in fact feel relevant, regardless of their power level.

 

Admittedly, this is just my experience and YMMV, but all of the groups I have played with started as noobs and worked their way up to the stratospheric heights of "World Champions" over time. They earned their spot and other than occasional friendly rivalry and crossover mistaken identidy battles, they always got along with the big guns until they too were in that range.

[nexus]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Then they shouldn't build 350 point characters. They should play a more substantial campaign.

 

This is also ignoring the possibility that a given city may not have many more powerful heroes than the PCs; not every city is Metropolis or ( God forbid ) Marvel NYC.

 

And if they don't want to play mega heroes because they're not comfortable with that power level or what have you and still would like to be relevant what then?

 

Opinions vary but there are some that just don't like 600+ character builds. Personally, I'm one of them. I think they just get to be too much. I'm not going to tell anyone that can't play on that level, but I don't think mine is bad either or has to be relegated to "loser" status.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I've had 350 point characters save the world many a time. 100 point characters as well. Sometimes being in the right place at the right time means more than being able to juggle tanks. It all depends on how you've designed the adventure.

 

Yes, but following that logic, it doesn't matter if the setting has 700-1000 point major heroes in it, either, since if your 350 point characters are at that right place and right time, then its up to them.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

That would basically be saying one play style is more important and you have to play with mega Heroes even if you don't want to if you want have you PCs adventures actually be important.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about setting importance necessarily; I'm talking about nitty gritty mechanical details about what kind of comic book character a given point total roughly represents. If the book said something like "350 ~= Daredevil, Spider-man, Early X-Men and Fantastic Four, 900 ~= Thor, Iron Man, Current Reed Richards, Dr Strange," players would be less inclined to try and force the matter.

IMG, I have had 350, even 250 point Heroes save the world. Its a matter of scaling and plot, IME.

 

Neither of which is negated by the presence of high powered heroes. OTOH, you can't use this matter to solve the issue of megavillains, because then it render the differences between villains moot.

[proditor]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Yes' date=' but following that logic, it doesn't matter if the setting has 700-1000 point major heroes in it, either, since if your 350 point characters are at that right place and right time, then its up to them.[/quote']Well, sorta, yeah. Let me give an example that isn't particularly germaine at first, but it should draw parallels nicely.

 

My Girlfriend was running a World of Darkness plot in a BIG Vampire game. The plot was a small "Get your candidate elected mayor" thing. It was basically an exercise in RP for the Camarilla who had it all buy sewn up. Except...the Sabbat started a methodical and comprehensive campaign to discredit the Cammie mayor and get their guy elected. The cammies did nothing since they were sure they would win. They didn't and the Sabbat got city hall.

 

The parrallel is that a good thinking group of heroes doesn't (or shouldn't need) masses of points to save the day. A group of smart thinking PC's should be able to throw all the right monkey wrenchs to save the day. Just my opinion mind you, but it's worked for me and my groups.

[Metaphysician]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

I think the other issue here is what kind of world are you playing in? Taking Marvel NYC as an example for a sec, are you the Avengers, The Fantastic Four, the X-men or the New Warriors? Each of those groups have saved the world a bunch of times, some just tend to do it before getting bagels and coffee.

 

You don't have to be the biggest guy on the block to be relevant in the world, you just have to have a GM that understands that their mission is to make sure that the PC's do in fact feel relevant, regardless of their power level.

 

Admittedly, this is just my experience and YMMV, but all of the groups I have played with started as noobs and worked their way up to the stratospheric heights of "World Champions" over time. They earned their spot and other than occasional friendly rivalry and crossover mistaken identidy battles, they always got along with the big guns until they too were in that range.

 

Which is exactly how a good campaign involving high level NPCs is supposed to work. Those high powered heroes don't just explain the settings' continued existence, they also give the players something to aim for, a goal to reach. "One day, Dr Celsius will be as great a hero as his idol, Professor Intrepid."

[OddHat]

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

 

Yes' date=' but following that logic, it doesn't matter if the setting has 700-1000 point major heroes in it, either, since if your 350 point characters are at that right place and right time, then its up to them.[/quote']

 

Which is why in my post on the subject I came out in favor of having high-end heroes around.

 

I also stressed not letting them steal the PCs thunder, and not using them as a club to railroad the players (see Aberrant).

 

I disagree with your assertion that 350 point characters should not be saving the world, but then in your games you're free to GM as you'd like.