M&M to HERO

[CourtFool]

Reeces Pieces to HERO

 

I also don't like using the NCM standard because every characters then gets grouped into the same 5-6 CV range with only an occasional 4 or 7 cv. There ends up not being enough difference between the nimble rogue and the burly warrior then' date=' IMO. [/quote']

 

You think people complain about STR, DEX and SPD being too cheap now.

 

Grouping everyone in the same CV range may be a feature instead of a bug. Maybe it is there to prevent anyone from dominating in combat. Of course with a little finess, it is still fairly easy to dominate in combat.

 

I am not a big fan of NCM either. Of course I do not mind disparity in combat effectiveness either. This warrants further thought.

[zornwil]

Re: Reeces Pieces to HERO

 

You think people complain about STR, DEX and SPD being too cheap now.

 

Grouping everyone in the same CV range may be a feature instead of a bug. Maybe it is there to prevent anyone from dominating in combat. Of course with a little finess, it is still fairly easy to dominate in combat.

 

I am not a big fan of NCM either. Of course I do not mind disparity in combat effectiveness either. This warrants further thought.

I'm with you. Game balance isn't all about combat. Also, there are niche functions in combat that NEED to be played. A good group of role-players is usually able to grasp it and perform that way. I personally find that allowing for disparity is sefl-correcting as people specialize more.

[Gadodel]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

I MM Point=6CP in HERO?

 

Considering Equipment/Weapons and so forth are purchased, often with Multipowers; I'd have to think about this a bit...

[MitchellS]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

I MM Point=6CP in HERO?

 

Considering Equipment/Weapons and so forth are purchased, often with Multipowers; I'd have to think about this a bit...

6 active points not 6 character points.

[Gadodel]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

6 active points not 6 character points.

Aha! That would make a big difference. That's more reasonable.

[Silverback]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

Anyone considered posting the conversion 'rules' from M&M 2e to HERO 5th?

[Phil]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

Myself and Doc Democracy are currently planning on putting together a 3-Act multiverse scenario using SAS for Act 1, Hero for Act 2 and MnM for Act 3. Plan is to take two pre-gen PCs from each game system and convert across the other two. We'll be working up 2E converstion system as part of this, though obviously leaning VERY heavily on Mitchells work!

 

One thing I suspect I will change is the figured characteristics. In 2E at least, PD and ED should surely relate to the Damage save, not the raw characteristics. Just dont ask me the details just yet!

 

What I would say is that there are a myriad number of conversion mechanisms that might need to be considered. For supers games, the classic is to compare STR benchmarks and scale from there. However, you also have other fixed-point benchmarks (e.g. tank example below), success rate benchmarks (what do you need to do to give a character the same success % in the new system) or - as Mitchell suggested - starting character benchmarks. I dont think any one approach is right or wrong. Context is key.

 

I'll report back in the next couple of weeks to let you know how we get on!

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

That changed in 5th edition. To cite 5ER's page reference (but I swear this did appear' date=' there's a certain irony in that I did the page conversion project but I'm too lazy to look it up) it's on page 40, the chart indicates that 21-30 is "Legendary" and 31+ is "Superhuman". Legendary is defined as "Few humans reach this lofty plateau; generally speaking, ordinary people can [i']never[/i] attain it." PS - and it closes with "The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of normal human attainment."

 

And that is only a guideline - the chart and description were lifted from CU, and there are stringent wording that says "This is only an exmple" a couple of places there, one with the legendary stats hitting 50 with superhuman being 51+ on things like STR.

 

Where the human/superhuman break stands is a completely camgaign dependant choice.

[zornwil]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

And that is only a guideline - the chart and description were lifted from CU, and there are stringent wording that says "This is only an exmple" a couple of places there, one with the legendary stats hitting 50 with superhuman being 51+ on things like STR.

 

Where the human/superhuman break stands is a completely camgaign dependant choice.

I understand, but it makes sense in context, it does provide an answer to the question "why aren't you using 20 as normal human max".

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

I understand' date=' but it makes sense in context, it does provide an answer to the question "why aren't you using 20 as normal human max".[/quote']

 

I understand, but it just leads to "Hey, you character has a 33 dex, he can't be human" problems.

 

Basically it's a pet peeve.

[zornwil]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

True, I agree, I don't use the values.

[Phil]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

OK, here's my thoughts so far on M&M to HERO conversion!

 

RULE ONE: Every element of conversion must be tailored to each individual campaign.

 

CHARACTERISTICS

There are two levels to converting. Firstly, converting the value. Secondly, equivalence. Few M&M characters would justify a DEX 23, but for many campaigns Dex 23 is very much the norm. This needs to be taken into account for certain characters (see calculated CV, below)

 

In fact, in general terms, the characteristic scales are virtually identical (Strength lifting amounts *are* identical). However, because HERO by convention has slightly higher 'normal' maxima, I decided that it was appropriate to have M&M 18=HERO20. As such the full characteristic scale runs something like this:

 

1-10 same

11-20 matched CV increases to D20 modifiers. But had to get rid of M&M 11 to do so!

 

Hero(CV).. M&M (Mod)

11 (4) ... 12 (+1)

12 (4) ... 12 (+1)

13 (4) ... 13 (+1)

14 (5) ... 14 (+2)

15 (5) ... 14 (+2)

16 (5) ... 15 (+2)

17 (6) ... 16 (+3)

18 (6) ... 16 (+3)

19 (6) ... 17 (+3)

20 (7) ... 18 (+4)

21 (7) ... 19 (+4)

22 (7) ... 19 (+4)

23 (7) ... 20 (+5)

<+1> ... <+1>

 

Went for straight +1 thereafter really just for ease and because to do otherwise extends the M&M characteristic scale much too far (makes a M&M Brick's Con 34 = HERO CON 44, which is excessive)

 

SPD should be by archetype/campaign convention, so Costumed Adventurer (batman-esque) I went for SPD 5/6, Energy Controller I went for SPD 4/5. YMM(and should)V!

 

POWERS

Converting powers was fairly easy, by using the assumption that M&M 1 rank = HERO 1d6. Similarly, M&M +1 Defence = HERO 2 DEF. Most individual powers can be fairly easily converted on this basis.

 

CV

CV I worked out by looking at the M&M attack score and converting it to CV, on the basis that HERO has slightly less variation than M&M (taking an average HERO CV of 9 to equal M&M Attack +10). Slightly skewed, because HERO works on 62.5% success rate (equal CV vs equal CV, 11-) rather than D20's 50% chance. But such is the variation of different systems! So I've partly looked at the odds, partly compared martial artists (guestimate M&M martial artist +16 attack, HERO martial artist OCV 13) and partly built the scale to allow for some character variation in the mid-range.

 

HERO M&M

CV Att/Def HERO* M&M*

4 2 9.3% 10.0%

5 4 16.2% 20.0%

6 6 25.9% 30.0%

7 8 37.5% 40.0%

8 9 50.0% 45.0%

9 10 62.5% 50.0%

10 11 74.1% 55.0%

11 12 83.8% 60.0%

12 14 90.7% 70.0%

13 16 95.4% 80.0%

14 18 98.1% 90.0%

 

*to hit average DCV / Defence

 

IMPORTANT!: You should then use this value to inform the calculation of Dex and/or CSLs.

 

POWER ATTACK and other Combat Feats

I was thinking about this just now and realised that actually Power attack is an incredibly powerful ability in M&M for it's cost. Basically, attack, damage, defence and toughness are all capped at the character level (starting =10), but you can trade off damage and attack, and defence and tough (so powerful but inaccurate, or agile but weedy). Power attack seriously undermines this by allowing you to have a +10 Attack, +10 damage attack that can at a whim become a +5/+15 against slow tough opponents or +15/+5 against fast weak opponents.

 

As such, it *should* be expensive in Hero.

 

However, I'm also thinking that it's probably a combat maneuver that doesnt really need to be translated. Hero has pushing, damage increased by CSLs, haymakers or multipower EBs. The unbalanced flexibility of feats like Power Attack simply dont fit. It'll be one of those small differences I think. I think it's best to resist converting absolutely everything. Such differences are the reasons we chose one game system over an other, after all!

[Silverback]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

This looks good work so far Phil. Once you've completed it I'd love to host it on my website too!

[Phil]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

I've just about got it finished now. Just need to translate it from nerdy Excel into more user-friendly Word

[Silverback]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

I've just about got it finished now. Just need to translate it from nerdy Excel into more user-friendly Word

Fantastic! Drop me a PM as soon as it's done! It'll be an incredibly useful conversion to have and share.

[Thag13]

Re: M&M to HERO

 

Thank you everyone for all the hard work.

 

Keep it up!!!!!