Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

[KA.]

Hey there,

I know what the official answer to this question is, and I don't really have a problem with it.

But, based on the idea that there may be a 6th Ed. some day, I just thought I would bring it up as a topic for conversation.

 

Here is the situation:

Character A and Character B are 12" apart.

They both have the same SPD and are going to act this segment.

Character A has a DEX of 18.

Character B has a DEX of 15.

Character A goes first.

He says that he is going to perform a Move Through on Character B.

Character B goes second.

He says that he is going to use his Energy Blast on Character A.

 

Now the normal course of how things work is, Character A goes first.

He performs his Full Move, and at the end does his Move Through.

 

After this happens, if Character B is still standing, he gets to try to Energy Blast Character A.

 

What I wonder about is, even though Character A goes first he has to move 12" to reach Character B."

 

It seems like Character B should have the chance to take his shot while Character A is running at him.

 

I understand that there could be occasions where the higher DEX would make a difference, but at a fair distance, say more than 1/2 the character's movement, if the person they are running at has said they want to blast them, it seems like they should get their shot.

 

Is this crazy?

Would it break the game to change it?

Does anyone do it this way currently?

 

KA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

I see this as a compromise to make the game more workable. In theory, a normal human with a 6" move and a 2 SPD should be able to move 1" per segment (1/2" per segment if making a half move), not 6" every six seconds. Breaking movement down into this level of granularity would, however, slow the game considerably, so we accept the "sit still for 5 seconds, massive burst of speed in segment 6" compromise. I'm not aware of any game where movement is reflected in its more accurate continuous state, because it wuld be too kludgy.

 

Your example begs the questions of:

 

- how much must the DEX difference be?

- do you take x time to move x", or to move 1/xth of your movement speed?

- why not just change the SPD chart to 24 possible phases, allow only half moves each phase, and restrict attack actions to every second phase?

 

I think you could adopt some house rules to get the effect you're looking for, but I'm not convinced the added realism is worth the added complexity.

[sbarron]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

I'm just working off the top of my head here. I know I have seen similar threads to this before, so there may be better answers. But if this is really a problem for you, I would suggest that you have all characters, and I mean all, start making liberal use of Held Actions and Covered, or whatever attacking someone and then holding that attack until they move is called.

 

If you allow held actions to enter into the characters next phase (and the FAQ says that you should use judgment and dramatic sense to decide whether you allow this, which in this case I think you could), then a character could use his held action to get his EB off first. Of course, this doesn't solve the problem if both the charcters have held actions.

 

Secondly, I'd recommend the covering manuever. If a character thinks another character may attack him, then using a form of covering would allow the guy at range to fire first if he gets rushed. Again, he is really using an action from a previous phase, so it's not a perfect solution. But it would work some of the time.

 

I think both of these keep the rules intact and will take away some of the times when a character is able to pull the move-through from range on a armed opponent trick.

 

I've also seen people on this board mention breaking everything down by half-phases rather than full phases, which would model real life more accurately, but would make combat even more complex and time consumming. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for.

[tancred]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

This suggestion reminds me a lot of the way movement works in the board game Star Fleet Battles.

SFB uses a proportional movement system with the game turn broken into 32 impulses, and you move in various impulses depending on your speed cross-indexed on a massive chart.

 

The short version is, the complexity IS immense. It can take 5 hours to play a single two-ship duel. (You can fire weapons at any point in the 32 impulses, and some weapons can fire more than once a turn after a delay.)

 

I think you'd get the same result in HERO if you tried to adopt something like this. It seems to me that combat would get slower.

Proportional movement is really realistic-feeling, but at the price of a great deal of added complexity.

 

Just my 2 denarii.

 

Edit - Eep. That came out really harsh-sounding.

What I also meant to say was that I agree with your basic premise; it does seem that having to move the distance should give character B at least a chance to get his attack off. I just don't know how you'd implement it.

[Zanthis]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

You could just house-rule all Full Move attack actions to intrinsically have the limitation Extra Time: Delayed Phase.

[zornwil]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

I don't know that the rules should handle this level of nuance directly, but I think it's a great subject, KA. A very different/'general method of handling this and all related situations might be to break the phased movements into half moves, such that characters all get their first half-move in DEX order, and then the 2nd half-move in DEX order. For example, DEX 30 gets to take a half-move or fire. Then DEX 20 does the same. This could mean that DEX 30 guy is doing the move you described above and makes it halfway to the DEX 20 guy before the DEX 20 guy gets a move; DEX 20 guy sees DEX 30 guy coming at him, so he immediately fires. Of course if DEX 30's half move is so great he'd already be on top of DEX 30 guy, then I'd say he gets his half move in prior to DEX 30 guy's shot. Here's the rub - do you count a move-by/move-through for the total movement across both half moves in this scenario? I could see it either way; if someone is that close, you could easily say that the attacking character has no way to build up the steam before hitting, so he only gets the benefit of his half move if he reaches the target so quickly. Anyway, if DEX 20 guy decides not to fire but rather to move, he could take a half-move before the next round of half-actions, when DEX 30 guy gets to finish his half-phase, and so will DEX 20 guy.

 

What do people think about that?

 

Personally, I have always ruled that all actions in a phase/segment are simultaneous, subject to SFX. So even a DEX 1 character gets an offensive shot off, even if 50 other PCs are firing at him and have higher DEXes. This works well for me. But I could imagine changing it a bit to the half-action scenario I described above.

 

PS - further refinement to above idea - if we do this, it's probably also best-balanced if we say that you can only hold half-actions. If the end of the first round of half-actions comes and you refuse to take yours, you lose it then and now you only have your last half-action. The last half-action could be held until any successive phase, though.

[Rapier]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

There is a tabletop spaceship battle game I just LOOOOOVE called Silent Death.

 

In Silent Death, the person with the highest initiative goes last. This allows you to see what everyone else is doing first and then react appropriately and certain damage phases all happen concurrently.

 

Using this as a premise, and it could take some extra work on your part:

 

For a single phase, the person with the lowest DEX announces their action (just announces, no dice rolling yet). The person with the second lowest DEX announces their action...on up the line. The person with the highest DEX announces their action. Then all effects kick-in simultaneously.

 

I could see something like this having merit. It would need some hefty play testing, there are probably some tweaks here and there to smooth things out. But I think this would more closely (ie realistically) represent the actions during a single phase.

[zornwil]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

There is a tabletop spaceship battle game I just LOOOOOVE called Silent Death.

 

In Silent Death, the person with the highest initiative goes last. This allows you to see what everyone else is doing first and then react appropriately and certain damage phases all happen concurrently.

 

Using this as a premise, and it could take some extra work on your part:

 

For a single phase, the person with the lowest DEX announces their action (just announces, no dice rolling yet). The person with the second lowest DEX announces their action...on up the line. The person with the highest DEX announces their action. Then all effects kick-in simultaneously.

 

I could see something like this having merit. It would need some hefty play testing, there are probably some tweaks here and there to smooth things out. But I think this would more closely (ie realistically) represent the actions during a single phase.

I like that idea, Rapier. I probably won't do it even though it's in sync with my thoughts on actions, but I like it, who knows, could entertain using it at some point.

[Rapier]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

I like that idea' date=' Rapier. I probably won't do it even though it's in sync with my thoughts on actions, but I like it, who knows, could entertain using it at some point.[/quote']

I was thinking maybe next time my group gets together face to face we might give it a try. What do you have to lose? You would know in a couple of phases if its worth it. If it's not working out, you go back to the old way.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

Hey there,

I know what the official answer to this question is, and I don't really have a problem with it.

But, based on the idea that there may be a 6th Ed. some day, I just thought I would bring it up as a topic for conversation.

 

Here is the situation:

Character A and Character B are 12" apart.

They both have the same SPD and are going to act this segment.

Character A has a DEX of 18.

Character B has a DEX of 15.

Character A goes first.

He says that he is going to perform a Move Through on Character B.

Character B goes second.

He says that he is going to use his Energy Blast on Character A.

 

Now the normal course of how things work is, Character A goes first.

He performs his Full Move, and at the end does his Move Through.

 

After this happens, if Character B is still standing, he gets to try to Energy Blast Character A.

 

What I wonder about is, even though Character A goes first he has to move 12" to reach Character B."

 

It seems like Character B should have the chance to take his shot while Character A is running at him.

 

I understand that there could be occasions where the higher DEX would make a difference, but at a fair distance, say more than 1/2 the character's movement, if the person they are running at has said they want to blast them, it seems like they should get their shot.

 

Is this crazy?

Would it break the game to change it?

Does anyone do it this way currently?

 

KA.

 

I haven't read what others posted yet... but I used to have a house rule that addressed this.

 

Essentially I turned all phases into 1/2 Phase 1 and and 1/2 Phase 2.

 

This directly addressed your situation, as I would have said Character A moves his half phase first... then character B does his half phase, which is to blast... so the blast goes off before the SECOND half phase where Character A gets to impact with the Move By.

 

I came at this, not from a "movement takes time" angle, though that figured in, but from a "range gets boned in Hero" angle, where the system allows a half move attack to be AS EFFICIENT as a direct range attack. That never felt right, to me.

 

Now, having changed away from the Speed Chart to an initiative system, this doesn't come up much at all, anymore, because there is rarely a time when characters are acting in exactly the same moment. Not any more realistic or whatever, just that the current rule I use doesn't force a game mechanic of "nearly simultaneous action" the way the Speed Chart does.

 

If I was still using the Speed Chart, I'd still be using the Two Half Phases system, as I called it.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

I don't know that the rules should handle this level of nuance directly, but I think it's a great subject, KA. A very different/'general method of handling this and all related situations might be to break the phased movements into half moves, such that characters all get their first half-move in DEX order, and then the 2nd half-move in DEX order. For example, DEX 30 gets to take a half-move or fire. Then DEX 20 does the same. This could mean that DEX 30 guy is doing the move you described above and makes it halfway to the DEX 20 guy before the DEX 20 guy gets a move; DEX 20 guy sees DEX 30 guy coming at him, so he immediately fires. Of course if DEX 30's half move is so great he'd already be on top of DEX 30 guy, then I'd say he gets his half move in prior to DEX 30 guy's shot. Here's the rub - do you count a move-by/move-through for the total movement across both half moves in this scenario? I could see it either way; if someone is that close, you could easily say that the attacking character has no way to build up the steam before hitting, so he only gets the benefit of his half move if he reaches the target so quickly. Anyway, if DEX 20 guy decides not to fire but rather to move, he could take a half-move before the next round of half-actions, when DEX 30 guy gets to finish his half-phase, and so will DEX 20 guy.

 

What do people think about that?

 

Personally, I have always ruled that all actions in a phase/segment are simultaneous, subject to SFX. So even a DEX 1 character gets an offensive shot off, even if 50 other PCs are firing at him and have higher DEXes. This works well for me. But I could imagine changing it a bit to the half-action scenario I described above.

 

PS - further refinement to above idea - if we do this, it's probably also best-balanced if we say that you can only hold half-actions. If the end of the first round of half-actions comes and you refuse to take yours, you lose it then and now you only have your last half-action. The last half-action could be held until any successive phase, though.

 

I think I got lost in the complexity of your discussion... but this is basically what I posted. Each phase is divided into two half phases.

 

What this basically does is give the person who "just attacks" a bit of an edge vs. the person who "moves and attacks." That always seemed more fair to me, and helped range attacks actually mean something.

 

It did not, in any way, ever unbalance the games in which I used it. Not to say someone might not fight a way to abuse this rule, but it never happened to me.

[mattingly]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

Character B is just not as used to combat, or doesn't have as quick reactions as Character A. It would be a bit easier to picture if B was trying to raise a gun to point at A, you could see how the quick rush might counteract the arm motion.

 

But if B can just shoot eyebeams or something, without any movement on his part, he should buy Lightning Reflexes or something to reflect that fact. Otherwise, I'd have to assume that he's just not as fast on his feet, and has to spend a moment trying to take everything in before he can act.

 

One other option is for B to attempt the Hurry action, to get himself enough of an Initiative boost to act first.

[MitchellS]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

Our house rule is that characters within 3 points of Dex are allowed an action against a character making a full move, to either move or make a full-move attack, after the first half phase.

 

So in this instance 18 Dex character goes and is 12" away. If 12" is a half move for the character then he hits with his move-through. If 12" is more than the character's half move then 15 Dex character (because he is within 3 Dex) gets to take a half phase action, if he has an action that phase. He can then do a half phase move to try and either get away or attempt to shoot the character coming at him.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

Character B is just not as used to combat, or doesn't have as quick reactions as Character A. It would be a bit easier to picture if B was trying to raise a gun to point at A, you could see how the quick rush might counteract the arm motion.

 

But if B can just shoot eyebeams or something, without any movement on his part, he should buy Lightning Reflexes or something to reflect that fact. Otherwise, I'd have to assume that he's just not as fast on his feet, and has to spend a moment trying to take everything in before he can act.

 

One other option is for B to attempt the Hurry action, to get himself enough of an Initiative boost to act first.

 

'azctly. Imagine DEX _30_ vs DEX 15. At this point, it's obvious they'd be all over you.

 

Heck, even with a gun _pointed at you_, going low and running at someone can be effective. If you're within "short sprint" range of someone, a ranged weapon won't help that much.

 

Perhaps the reason he has to 'wait' till DEX 15 is that otherwise, he has no chance of hitting! It's a moving target, for all that's it's coming towards him.

[KA.]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

First, thanks to everyone for the great posts!

 

It looks like what I am looking for is going to be a merger of most of what has been presented here.

 

Let me list the things I am considering:

 

1) The "half phase" approach would work, but it would also slow things down.

I may give it a try in actual play, but I think I am looking for more of a "rule" than an alteration in the order of play itself.

 

2) I agree with the concept that mattingly and WhammeWhamme support, that someone who is "faster" just has better reflexes, and the "slower" guy might not be "ready" to fire. But, I still can't reconcile this completely when the difference in DEX is small, and a long distance has to be crossed.

 

3) As Hugh Neilson pointed out, to try to do this too "realistically" could result in something really complex which would slow play down.

 

4) sbarron points out that there are maneuvers existing in the game for this sort of thing.

 

So, on to my working answer.

 

I think I am going to allow a limited expansion of the "Hipshot" maneuver.

For those without photographic memories this allows you to "trade" one point of OCV for a point of DEX to be used to determine who goes first.

The official maneuver stops there.

 

My extension is going to be:

In the case where a character with a Ranged Attack is subject to a Move-By or Move-Through by a higher DEX character that is at a Half-Move or more away, he may perform an "Extended Hipshot" trading -1 OCV for +1 DEX, which is only used to determine what attack hits first, and is only useful against the single attacker performing the Moving Attack.

He must trade enough points of OCV to make his effective DEX the same as the attacker.

The DEX bonus is only for the determination of who goes first between the two characters involved. It has no effect on OCV, DCV, or "relative DEX" vs. any other character.

 

So, in gameplay, all the GM would have to do is apply the difference in DEX as a -OCV modifier for the character with the ranged attack.

 

Seeing as this should not come up too often, I don't think it would slow things too much.

 

Also, it should not "unbalance" things too much, because in the case of characters with a large difference in DEX, the character with the Ranged attack would have very little chance of hitting, since he is "hurrying" his shot.

 

Comments?

 

KA.

[zornwil]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

I think I got lost in the complexity of your discussion... but this is basically what I posted. Each phase is divided into two half phases.

 

What this basically does is give the person who "just attacks" a bit of an edge vs. the person who "moves and attacks." That always seemed more fair to me, and helped range attacks actually mean something.

 

It did not, in any way, ever unbalance the games in which I used it. Not to say someone might not fight a way to abuse this rule, but it never happened to me.

Yeah, it's what you said you currently do. The only thing that might be a left turn is my comment about move-throughs/move-bys. Basically, how do you handle a move-by/move-through when the strike would occur in the first half phase but the total benefit of velocity comes from the entire phase of movement?

[zornwil]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

(snip) So, in gameplay, all the GM would have to do is apply the difference in DEX as a -OCV modifier for the character with the ranged attack.

 

Seeing as this should not come up too often, I don't think it would slow things too much.

 

Also, it should not "unbalance" things too much, because in the case of characters with a large difference in DEX, the character with the Ranged attack would have very little chance of hitting, since he is "hurrying" his shot.

 

Comments?

 

KA.

 

KA, what you suggest seems like it would work, although I'd probably allow the target to just attempt the strike given it's in the same phase and most people's reaction time would allow them to do that. Or you could just allow that only if the person was further than a half-move away, symbolizing that they'd react only if they had suitable time. But your suggestion seems reasonable.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

Yeah' date=' it's what you said you currently do. The only thing that might be a left turn is my comment about move-throughs/move-bys. Basically, how do you handle a move-by/move-through when the strike would occur in the first half phase but the total benefit of velocity comes from the entire phase of movement?[/quote']

 

In the past, the Move-Through, Move-By was the one time "move and attack" worked faster than range. For me this balanced out, because of the minuses those maneuvers carry. They were "rushed, all out attacks" in my mind, so they could land before someone pulled the trigger. My Two Half Phases rule came up more in reference to the "half move, then attack" maneuver which is so very, very common and basically seemed to hose ranged attackers for the most part.

 

The reasoning was not mathematical, but "feel." A half move and attack is two separate things... move... then attack. A move-by or Move-through is one thing... and attack... it just happens to include movement as a feature of the attack. (Passing Strike included in this.) Again... I'm not saying it is the most logical reasoning, but it worked well for my games... and surprisingly didn't really slow things down at all.

 

Anyway... moot point for me. I don't use the Speed Chart so this rule is unnecessary for me, anymore.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

I think that the lower DEX character is probably already going to have a job hitting without further substantial minuses.

 

The hurry manoeuvre allows you to add 1d6 DEX only to go first for -2 OCV and DCV. Worth giving a go - getting the first blow in may not be a sure thing. You could add that and hitshot (combinig the penalties) if you wanted.

[CBikle]

Re: Move Through/Move By Question: Does movement take time?

 

Don't know if this has been proposed yet, but you could always have the move-through (or any other full-phase action) require two dex rolls (one for each half-phase) vs. the opponents one dex roll.

 

If the mover fails one of the rolls, than he's accomplished half of his action before his opponent gets to take his action.

 

Don't know if this is what you're looking for.