Well blow me down

[TheEmerged]

Re: Well blow me down

 

KBR is obviously the defense against the KB of a Dispel that has the "Does KB" advantage. You therefore have a single power with two effects, so the effect that adjusts defenses takes effect after the effect that would be defending against. If you want to split linguistic hairs between "attack" (the world actually used in the rule in question) and "effect", that's your right.

 

And as GM, I'd require one *heck* of a justification for applying Does KB to a Dispel -- just about the only thematic one I could justify would be an antigravitic attack, and as I understand physics that shouldn't work anyway (since it's a question of intertia not weight). Even then, I'd probably out for the reasons Gary discusses.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Dispel vs Focuses is well-established by precedent in published products, and drain vs focuses makes little or no sense at all.

 

For example, some bricks have a trick called Breaking that functions as dispel vs focused powers. They grab the focus and crush it, and the power is useless until the focus is replaced. A drain wouldn't make any sense, since a drain has a return rate and isn't all-or-nothing. I mean, if I crush your gun in my hand, it makes no sense at all for the gun to be okay again after a few minutes.

 

Then use a Killing Attack, only vs Foci. The use of Dispel vs Foci in the books is a really bad precedent.

 

Save Dispel for use against transient effects.

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Then use a Killing Attack, only vs Foci. The use of Dispel vs Foci in the books is a really bad precedent.

 

Save Dispel for use against transient effects.

 

This conversation moved to another thread where we have been discussing that very possibility.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Hello again. Been thinking about the dispel causing KB thing, and I am coming to the POV that it is probably wrong to allow it as I do think that the dispel shouldn't effect this attack: it 'dispels' the KBR which the target can then turn back on as a 0 phase action. Hmm.

 

Mind you I think that the bigger problem (as has been pointed out by jackalope) is that you are applying advantages to a power with a smaller active cost per die (dispel is something of an abberation in that respect) so you are getting more meaty goodness for your points. I feel strangely uncomforatble about this, and would probably only allow it in a very well argued SFX case (one that springs to mind would indeed be the one jackalope used: a powerful gas fire extinguisher I can see putting out fires and pushing people away with the gas stream).

 

Now I accept that you can use 'does no direct damage' on an EB (which I think you'd probably get up to a - 3/4 advantage if I recall 'limited powers' right), but that still leaves you with a pretty gross active point total which is likely to exceed most campaign limits if you bother with such things.

 

This brings me back to the original point: isn't Double KB too expensive?

 

I know a lot of KB can be very effective, but you are going to have to be really clever to use it effectively.

 

BTW I don't want to use TK as it is a wind blast: very little control, don't like having to use the grab mechanic (PSLs - I know) and the STR v STR roll: wind blast KB should only be resisted if someone is heavy or actively bracing, not just becasue they are strong.

 

Asides: Didn't know there was an official 'brick trick' to dispel foci, but I wouldn't allow it if the effect was to destroy them: go with KA vs foci as suggested. As far as I can tell a dispelled power should be able to be turned back on immediately. Mind you if a brick has grabbed your focus you probably can't use it anyway.

 

Frenchman: I was using average values for 2d6 not standard effect values, so I think it does work out at -7" KB on average. What is 1" between friends though (fnar fnar)

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Well blow me down

 

I didn't see anything like AE: Line, AE: 1 Hex or the like in your constructs. It seems that there ought to be something along those lines.

 

If you did TK, it would be 15 pts per 10 STR, which is basically STR bought with the Ranged Advantage. If you then applied affects whole object -1 limitation, you end up with 7 pts per 10 STR.

 

You can use TK to Shove someone instead of Grab & Throw. This requires a STR vs. STR roll which I think is appropriate because STR represents so many things. If you get slammed by an object, you resist it with your STR.

 

Gail Force: 26 STR TK, AE: Line x2 +1 1/4, Active 87.75; Whole Object Only -1, Only to Shove -1/2, Targets Behind 1st in Line Suffer Only 1/2 Effect -1/2, No Range -1/2, Real 25

 

Wind Blast: 6d6 EB, AE: Line x2 +1 1/4, Double Knockback +3/4, Active 90; KB Only -1/2, No Range -1/2, Targets Behind 1st in Line Suffer Only 1/2 Effect -1/2, Real 36

 

Both of these are about 5-6 pts per 1d6... about the same as EB.They'd be about half that if it weren't for the AE. With KB you are causing damage and moving the target, both very significant things on the battlefield. The only problem I see with these powers is the Active Point cost, which would usually put them outside of campaign guidelines, even at these levels. I might allow these in that instance because they are interesting powers and don't seem to upset the game balance too much.

 

Just for fun:

Force Blast: 8d6 EB, Double Knockback +3/4, Active 90; Reduced Penetration -1/4, Reduced Range (Half) -1/4, Stun Only -0, Real 60

[TaxiMan]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Double Knockback IS too expensive. For damage, it's worthless. 1st, the victim gets to subtract 2d6 from the inches of KB. Then, there has to be something to hit. Total damage is limited to BODY + DEF of the object, and most things (e.g. walls) have low totals. Finally, the victim gets to apply PD against the damage. All that, and you get less dice per Active Points, too!

 

I don't even bother figuring out the damage - if it's a really impressive KB, I'll toss 1-4 extra STUN on so the player feels better.

 

So DKB is only useful for getting distance between the user and the victim. But it doesn't do that well either. Comparing nearly the same AP of a standard EB and a DKB EB that would be 12d6 EB vs 7d6 DKB EB. On average, an extra 2" of KB. Yay. In all fairness, you do get a variant of the STUN lottery - with a good roll they'll go flying.

 

Still, for an attack that's supposed to send people flying it costs waaaaayy too much.

 

I think +1/2 is more reasonable.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Perhaps it is not the sytem that is wrong but your approach. Rather than using an eb to simulate wind I would use an area effect tk.

 

AOE TK could be good, but it's crippled by the official rules. It can only affect as much IN TOTAL as it has strength. In other words, if a TK AOE blows criminals etc. out of a bank vault and the vault door is heavy, it probably won't affect the criminals. It'll use up it's total STR moving the vault door.

 

It's more clear when AOE TK is used to lift stuff. With it, a 60 STR TK that covers a square mile (SEEMS like a really strong power, doesn't it!) can only lift an inch of dirt, since a square mile * 1 inch of dirt = the weight 60 STR can lift.

 

[i didn't do the math, so it might be more or less than an inch of dirt - just trying to get the point across.]

 

I don't like the official rules for AOE TK. I'd like to see the STR apply per hex, or something like that.

[Silbeg]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Working on a 70AP attack, a 14d6 EB would average 47 STUN damage and 7" KB, a 8d6 double KB power would average 28 STUN and 9" KB.

 

That is an awful lot of damage lost for 2 inches of additional KB. Could it be that Double KB is too expensive?

A couple of points here, on why I don't really believe that it is over-priced. Much of this has to do with synergy effects, etc. The focus here is the primary damage of KB, but nothing to do with the other secondary effects, such as 1/2 DCV when prone, etc.

 

1) In many cases, even a single extra inch of KB can overcome resistence. Taking an opponent off his feet has a huge effect on combat! This is the primary purpose of Double KB in my eyes... also the reason why the Takedown Martial Manuever is one of the more powerful.

 

2) When stacking with other advantages, the cost diminishes proportionally.

Even adding in 1/2 END has a huge effect on the cost...

8d6 Double KB 1/2 END => 80 Active

14d6 EB, 1/2 END => 87 Active

 

To be even (at approximately 80 Active), the EB drops to 12.5 d6, with the following curve:

 

Double KB

8 * 2 = 16 - 7 = 9" average KB

 

Normal EB

12.5 = 12.5 - 7 = 5.5" average KB

 

Stacking more advantages will have an even more profound effect.

 

3) The more important issue is "Does the advantage well portray the power?"

if the answer is yes, then it should be used.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Double Knockback IS too expensive. For damage, it's worthless. 1st, the victim gets to subtract 2d6 from the inches of KB. Then, there has to be something to hit. Total damage is limited to BODY + DEF of the object, and most things (e.g. walls) have low totals. Finally, the victim gets to apply PD against the damage. All that, and you get less dice per Active Points, too!

 

I don't even bother figuring out the damage - if it's a really impressive KB, I'll toss 1-4 extra STUN on so the player feels better.

 

So DKB is only useful for getting distance between the user and the victim. But it doesn't do that well either. Comparing nearly the same AP of a standard EB and a DKB EB that would be 12d6 EB vs 7d6 DKB EB. On average, an extra 2" of KB. Yay. In all fairness, you do get a variant of the STUN lottery - with a good roll they'll go flying.

 

Still, for an attack that's supposed to send people flying it costs waaaaayy too much.

 

I think +1/2 is more reasonable.

 

 

With Advantages, I would tend to err on the side of caution because of the way they stack. 2X KB may be a trifle expensive, but it's a lot cheaper to add additional Advantages to a 2X KBR attack than a regular attack. It would cost 30 pts to make the 12d6 attack 0 End, while it would cost 17 pts to make the 7d6 2X KBR attack 0 End. The difference is worse as more advantages such as Area Effect gets piled on the construct.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Completely with you on the lower costs of additional advantages, but let's be real here, to make the power meaningful we have to be looking at a power that is close to the top end of the active points for a medium powerful campaign to start off with. You are not likely to want to stack many advantages onto a power that is near the limit anyway, and you're not likely to sneak it mast many a GM with the old, 'never mind the active points, feel the real points' schtick.

 

As for the synergy thing, think on this: it is better to knock an enemy down near to you where you and your team mates can get at him to take advantage of the fact that they are prone than knock them down and knock them 12 or 14" away, which is probably more than a half move to get to so you can't.

 

You can do more damage with a straight energy blast (given the limitations on damage you realistically take from KB) and you can knock someone down for a 3 point martial manoeuvre, why do you need to spend such a lot on what is basically a cinematic/flavour power?

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Not all campaigns have hard active point limits.

 

And 2X KB is more than just a "flavor" power. It can do tremendous damage under the right circumstances.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Well blow me down

 

If a campaign doesn't have hard Active Points limits, why not skip the DKB and use the same AP with straight EB? You'll get almost as much KB and do a lot more damage, all for the same AP.

 

If you look at the effectiveness (as opposed to the AP), how do you judge DKB? What is the equivalent of a 14d6 EB? Can it be calculated, or is it based on "feel"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Not all campaigns have hard active point limits.

 

And 2X KB is more than just a "flavor" power. It can do tremendous damage under the right circumstances.

 

If I wanted to damage opponents I wouldn't be monkeying around with double KB. You can come up with a power construct for less than 20 active points that could kill practically anyone, Dr D included.

 

Moreover, DKB won't reliably do a lot of damage. I mean if you use it to push a non-flyer off a sky scraper; lots of damage, but in a fragile world (and to many supers, this world is a fragile one) you'll have a job finding anything for them to crash into that is going to hold long enough to do significant damage. Most walls just slow knocked back characters down rather than damage them significantly. If you can find a main battle tank to knock someone into, we're in business, otherwise...

 

Whilst I appreciate that not all campaigns use hard active points limits, presumably the ones that don't monitor power constructs: otherwise it is easy to abuse the approach. The active points guidelines are an official part of the game and with them, +3/4 is too much: in a 90 AP campaign (which is pretty high) you could max out an 18d6 EB or a 10d6 DKB EB, once more, my friends, just 2" difference on average and scads less damage.

 

If you allow Does KB/DKB with dispels (a +1 total advantage) you can manage 15dice, which will be significantly huge amounts of KB. I think such a construct is almost certainly abusive. Clever, but abusive.

 

If the cost was +1/2 for your 90AP campaign you could do 12d6 DKB, or 24" average KB. Compare this to the 18d6 EB: 18d6 primary damage (63 average) plus 11d6 secondary (KB) damage.

 

For 12d6DKB you do 12d6 primary damage (42 damage average) and 17" secondary (KB) damage.

 

The 'total dice' is the same, but you will cause significantly more damage with the first attack because:

 

1. If the damage you are causing is that high, defences are going to be high too: you are unlikley to be getting more than 20 Stun through defences on average, so you can, in effect, forget the 12 and 11d6 effects. (the 'current' version: 10d6DKB at +3/4 advantage causes 10d6/13d6 on average: unlikely to cause any damage in a campaign where people are chucking 18d6 blasts about.)

 

2. The KB damage is only going to max out if you can find something that has a DEF+BODY of 17. The list is small, in fact it doesn't even include the earth: if you are directly above your opponent and blast them down 1 hex of earth is 16 BODY 0 DEF, so you'd get blasted 1" down and take 16d6. And, in that instance, the target would automatically get to use STR to reduce KB damage in any event.

 

YES there are advantages to knocking people over, but you can do that with a cheap combat manoeuvre or even a grab: you don't need to spend 10s of points for that effect. Even then they can land on their feet, or get up instantly, if they have the appropriate 3 point skill.

 

I'm not arguing that DKB is not useful in the right situation, but it is not a munchkin advantage even with the lower cost suggested.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

If a campaign doesn't have hard Active Points limits, why not skip the DKB and use the same AP with straight EB? You'll get almost as much KB and do a lot more damage, all for the same AP.

 

If you look at the effectiveness (as opposed to the AP), how do you judge DKB? What is the equivalent of a 14d6 EB? Can it be calculated, or is it based on "feel"?

 

 

Maybe I want to pay 0 End for my attack. Maybe I want an Area of Effect for my attack.

 

Your 14d6 attack costs 70 pts. Adding 0 End to it costs 35 pts. Adding Area Effect Cone to it costs 70 pts.

 

My 8d6 2X KB attack costs the same 70 pts. However, adding 0 End to it costs only 20 pts, and adding AoE Cone to it costs only 40 pts. Significantly cheaper to add additional advantages.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

If I wanted to damage opponents I wouldn't be monkeying around with double KB. You can come up with a power construct for less than 20 active points that could kill practically anyone' date=' Dr D included.[/quote']

 

Yes, I'm well aware that the rules can be abused. I'm not talking about that.

 

 

Moreover, DKB won't reliably do a lot of damage. I mean if you use it to push a non-flyer off a sky scraper; lots of damage, but in a fragile world (and to many supers, this world is a fragile one) you'll have a job finding anything for them to crash into that is going to hold long enough to do significant damage. Most walls just slow knocked back characters down rather than damage them significantly. If you can find a main battle tank to knock someone into, we're in business, otherwise...

 

It's a genre staple that hard objects are everywhere. Tanks, mountains, bases, starship walls, vault doors, enemy bricks, etc. Remember, the 2X KB attack will only be pulled out when the player perceives it to be his advantage.

 

 

Whilst I appreciate that not all campaigns use hard active points limits, presumably the ones that don't monitor power constructs: otherwise it is easy to abuse the approach. The active points guidelines are an official part of the game and with them, +3/4 is too much: in a 90 AP campaign (which is pretty high) you could max out an 18d6 EB or a 10d6 DKB EB, once more, my friends, just 2" difference on average and scads less damage.

 

Additional advantages are significantly cheaper with the 2X KBR as opposed to a straight attack.

 

 

If you allow Does KB/DKB with dispels (a +1 total advantage) you can manage 15dice, which will be significantly huge amounts of KB. I think such a construct is almost certainly abusive. Clever, but abusive.

 

Or you can plausibly have a Flash vs Sound Does KB/2KB and call it a sonic boom for the same cost.

 

 

If the cost was +1/2 for your 90AP campaign you could do 12d6 DKB, or 24" average KB. Compare this to the 18d6 EB: 18d6 primary damage (63 average) plus 11d6 secondary (KB) damage.

 

For 12d6DKB you do 12d6 primary damage (42 damage average) and 17" secondary (KB) damage.

 

The 'total dice' is the same, but you will cause significantly more damage with the first attack because:

 

1. If the damage you are causing is that high, defences are going to be high too: you are unlikley to be getting more than 20 Stun through defences on average, so you can, in effect, forget the 12 and 11d6 effects. (the 'current' version: 10d6DKB at +3/4 advantage causes 10d6/13d6 on average: unlikely to cause any damage in a campaign where people are chucking 18d6 blasts about.)

 

Further advantages are cheaper for the 2KB attack, and the 2KB attack has a version of the Stun Lotto at work here. Against a flyer or with moderately lucky KB dice, the 12d6 2KB attack can easily do 20+d6 damage.

 

 

2. The KB damage is only going to max out if you can find something that has a DEF+BODY of 17. The list is small, in fact it doesn't even include the earth: if you are directly above your opponent and blast them down 1 hex of earth is 16 BODY 0 DEF, so you'd get blasted 1" down and take 16d6. And, in that instance, the target would automatically get to use STR to reduce KB damage in any event.

 

This object could be something as simple as an enemy villain. As I pointed out above, genre convention is chock full of tough objects.

 

 

YES there are advantages to knocking people over, but you can do that with a cheap combat manoeuvre or even a grab: you don't need to spend 10s of points for that effect. Even then they can land on their feet, or get up instantly, if they have the appropriate 3 point skill.

 

I'm not arguing that DKB is not useful in the right situation, but it is not a munchkin advantage even with the lower cost suggested.

 

 

The cheap combat maneuver or grab has other disadvantages and won't do significantly more than your Str damage.

 

I agree that generally the straight attack is better, but as a slot in a multipower, the 2KB attack will only be pulled out when the player perceives it to be advantageous.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Maybe I want to pay 0 End for my attack. Maybe I want an Area of Effect for my attack.

 

Your 14d6 attack costs 70 pts. Adding 0 End to it costs 35 pts. Adding Area Effect Cone to it costs 70 pts.

 

My 8d6 2X KB attack costs the same 70 pts. However, adding 0 End to it costs only 20 pts, and adding AoE Cone to it costs only 40 pts. Significantly cheaper to add additional advantages.

 

I understand. Still, by the time I add additional advantages to the DKB power my AP totals are obscene. I know, "ignore AP". Seems strange in a game that's "balanced" using points. Anyway, that's a whole other discussion.

 

Agreeing to disagree there, I still have the problem that it is difficult to design a reasonable-cost power that forces people back large distances. It's a comic book standard to have wind powers and water powers etc. bowl characters back. How do we build those powers?

 

It's easy if we ignore costs, I suppose. (I think that's the argument you are making ... ?) Huge AOE TK with custom limitations (though the TK has to be powerful enough to handle EVERYTHING in the AOE).

 

But to repeat my earlier question, how do you judge the effectiveness of DKB vs. straight up attacks (not using active points)? What is the equivalent of a 14d6 EB? Can it be calculated? Is it judgement? If it is, what do you base it off?

 

I'm asking seriously. If I can play a better game by ignoring AP, I'm all for it. But I still need to manage players' power levels, so the people I play with won't feel cheated / think the game is unfair. I also need to manage the villians' power levels so it stays fun. How do you do that?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Well blow me down

 

So here's what we'll do. Make 2xKB a +1/4 advantage. It doubles KB ONLY FOR DISTANCE and ONLY if KB would have been caused anyway. It doesn't change the damage you do if you hit an object - it may make it more likely that you'll hit something because you are going further, but it retains the comic book feel (massive KB is definitely a feature of any number of comics and is incredibly genre appropriate). It doesn't even knock targets down more often. In a few situations it could be incredibly useful, but in most it would just make the whole thing taste better.

 

This form certainly wouldn't suit every game, but, as a flavour advantage (and there aren't many of those in HERO), it would enhance some games significantly.

 

Thoughts?

[Old Man]

Re: Well blow me down

 

KBR is obviously the defense against the KB of a Dispel that has the "Does KB" advantage. You therefore have a single power with two effects' date=' so the effect that adjusts defenses takes effect after the effect that would be defending against. If you want to split linguistic hairs between "attack" (the world actually used in the rule in question) and "effect", that's your right.[/quote']

 

I don't want be argumentative, just pointing out that Power Defense is the defense against Dispel. Many supers have 10-20 points of Power Defense. After that the Dispel vs KBR would have to defeat all of the points of the character's KBR in order to have any effect at all.

And as GM, I'd require one *heck* of a justification for applying Does KB to a Dispel -- just about the only thematic one I could justify would be an antigravitic attack, and as I understand physics that shouldn't work anyway (since it's a question of intertia not weight). Even then, I'd probably out for the reasons Gary discusses.

 

A powerful gust of wind or magnetic force or whatever is probably best defined as Dispel vs KBR. If the sfx is a non-damaging force that pushes back a target then EBs and tk do not match. EBs that have the Does No Body limitation also do NO knockback.

 

OK OK OK how's this: A Lifting wind/magnetic force/whatever is a Dispel KB; a directed force is a Dispel KB, Does KB; a powerful directed force is a Dispel KB, Does KB, 2x KB.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well blow me down

 

TK, Only to Shove would do no direct damage and couldn't be used to strike at the target. It reflects the fact that you a more powerful gust is needed to move a heavier target.

 

I would never, in a million years, allow this SFX to be constructed as Dispel vs KBR, Does KB. Ever. Not only that, but I never allow Dispel to be used against the actual persistent powers of another character.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Well blow me down

 

So here's what we'll do. Make 2xKB a +1/4 advantage. It doubles KB ONLY FOR DISTANCE and ONLY if KB would have been caused anyway. It doesn't change the damage you do if you hit an object - it may make it more likely that you'll hit something because you are going further, but it retains the comic book feel (massive KB is definitely a feature of any number of comics and is incredibly genre appropriate). It doesn't even knock targets down more often. In a few situations it could be incredibly useful, but in most it would just make the whole thing taste better.

 

This form certainly wouldn't suit every game, but, as a flavour advantage (and there aren't many of those in HERO), it would enhance some games significantly.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm not convinced that 'Advantage' is necessarily worth points... it can knock people _too_ far away (so you have to wait for them to get up before clobbering, or they go past the chasm).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Well blow me down

 

I'm not convinced that 'Advantage' is necessarily worth points... it can knock people _too_ far away (so you have to wait for them to get up before clobbering' date=' or they go past the chasm).[/quote']

 

In a one toone duel it may not be much use (unless it is a blaster v. brick fight...) but it would be very useful in a team fight - blast the brick over the other side of the square then take out one or two team mates before he gets back (if only all combats went to plan, eh?)

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Hmmm....

What about 50 Str Telekinesis with Affects whole object, double knockback and Variable advantage (for things like area of effect)?

[TaxiMan]

Re: Well blow me down

 

TK sounds good, and it gets lots of limitations for this application (include Always Direct, or Always Directly Away From PC). A 75 AP power would be a 50 Str TK (just like SSJ Archon said), that you could use the throwing distance from the STR table to determine "KB".

 

IDHMBIFOM - can anyone answer how far you can throw a 100kg person with 50 Str?

[Frenchman]

Re: Well blow me down

 

really really far.

 

36" to be exact

[TaxiMan]

Re: Well blow me down

 

36"? - OK. That's my new "book legal" way to do KB SFX attacks now. It even makes sense by not affecting heavy targets as strongly.