Change of Speed

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I don't agree with a lot of things in the faq. 5E has some screwy and illogical rules in the faq. No disrespect to Steve Long but I think he has made several bad answers in the faq but is just too stubborn/proud to go back and correct them. If you are drained 10 points to a 5 speed then you need 10 full points of aid or healing to go back to a 6. You must replace point for point' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

 

...and soon the FAQ will be called 5ER.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change of Speed

 

It depends on what you mean by next common segment - I find too many people seem to view the segment a phase begins on as THE segment. If you look at SPD 5 and SPD 6 characters then the first possible segment that both could be active on would be segment 4.

 

For SPD 6 segment 4 is the beginning segment of the next phase and for SPD 5 segment 3 is the beginning segment of the next phase. If the SPD 5 character does not act on segment three (delays) then segment 4 is still an active segment for SPD 5 and thus is a candidate for common segment...

 

Does that sound as confusing to everyone else as it does to me re-reading it (and I _know_ what I mean!).

 

Doc

 

I understand what you mean, I think it is the rule which is confusingly stated, and the example given doesn't illustrate the subtleties at all.

 

Read the way you explain it, I think the problem largely goes away, but I haven't worked through examples of my own yet. I'll get back to you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change of Speed

 

That one's been ruled as every phase. It bugs me on one hand because you don't get the benefit every phase, and because it makes no sense that +1 SPD, costs END sucks out 11 END per turn if you started with 10 SPD, but only 3 if you started with 2 SPD.

 

On the other hand, any other stat that costs END costs every phase, so is there any justification for SPD being different?

 

If you have +10 STR you only pay END for the phases you use it. If you add +1 speed, you are only 'using' it on one phase in a turn, so, in that way, it wouldn't be different to any other stat.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Just one more thing to add.

 

It appears (according to the FAQ) that if the character's SPD were aided by only 1 active point above a 5 SPD (1/10 of a point of SPD) he would still go back to 6 SPD immediately for the remainder of that Turn.

 

HM

 

Can you point out where the FAQ indicates that? Personally I can't see how you can interpret it that way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I understand what you mean, I think it is the rule which is confusingly stated, and the example given doesn't illustrate the subtleties at all.

 

Read the way you explain it, I think the problem largely goes away, but I haven't worked through examples of my own yet. I'll get back to you.

 

Still not a good way to do it IMO: Speed 6 character gets hit after their action on phase 2 with a 10 point (1 speed) drain. Next common segment (3 or 4), so 4, so acts then, and speed 5 from then on so actions on 5, 8 ,10 and 12 - even though the speed drain is pretty much at the start of the turn the drain has no effect on phases taken, which grossly undervalues the speed drain: an awful lot can happen in a full turn in Champions.

 

Seems to work better with speed increases though, but I've only tried out one or two examples.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Can you point out where the FAQ indicates that? Personally I can't see how you can interpret it that way.

 

I don't think it does work that way: herewith a recent question to Steve Long:

 

 

This is in the FAQ, but I'm still not clear as to what the answer is...and I'm not the only one!

 

If someone has a speed of 3.7 (Speed 3 in game terms as fractional speed normally has no game effect), because they have a 27 DEX and have NEITHER spent points to increase the Speed or saved them by selling the points back, and they are then hit by a drain, how many points need to be drained before the speed drops to 2, would it be 10 (a full point of speed) or 17 (the seven 'extra points' plus 10 more, being a full point of speed)?

 

If the same character was to receive an aid, how many points would they need to get up to Speed 4, would it be 3 (3.7 + 3 points = 4.0) or 10, being a full point of speed?

 

There are a couple things going on here.

 

First, characters cannot sell back fractional SPD, as your question seems to indicate you think they can. This is covered in the Rules FAQ under "Speed."

 

Second, there's another question under "Speed" that deals with exactly the issue you're asking about. It addresses this precise issue, with numerical examples, and I don't see how I can state it any clearer than it's already stated there: it takes a full increment of points, in this case 10, to raise or lower SPD by 1 point. Everything else is irrelevant -- Drain 10 points, lose a point of SPD; Aid 10 points, gain a point of SPD.

 

 

Pardon me for not cross referencing FRED, the erratta and the FAQ (I hadn't annotated my entire copy of FRED so there appeared tobe a conflict between it and the FAQ), but the answer seems pretty clear: you need a full increment to raise or lower speed i.e. 10 points

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I don't think it does work that way: herewith a recent question to Steve Long:

 

Pardon me for not cross referencing FRED, the erratta and the FAQ (I hadn't annotated my entire copy of FRED so there appeared tobe a conflict between it and the FAQ), but the answer seems pretty clear: you need a full increment to raise or lower speed i.e. 10 points

 

Which is exactly what I thought. I'm not sure where Hyper-Man is getting his interpretation from.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Change of Speed

 

If you have +10 STR you only pay END for the phases you use it. If you add +1 speed' date=' you are only 'using' it on one phase in a turn, so, in that way, it wouldn't be different to any other stat.[/quote']

Well, comparing SPD to STR is really an apples to oranges comparison.

 

SPD to Autofire is actually a better way to understand the ruling. 10d6 EB normaly costs 5 END but if I make it Autofire[5shots] it costs 25 END. Paying 1 END per EXTRA point of SPD per phase EVERY phase based on the TOTAL SPD is not too different since it litterally is allowing extra actions which include movement as well as attacks. The fact that the extra END is being pro-rated over all the phases vs. being paid during just one phase is just an easier to play mechanic.

 

Also, from the fairness side of things.

If I am making a FLASH clone who does NOT have everything bought as 0 END, he would certainly have a very high recovery 20+ to reflect his ability to take multiple actions with a 7-10 SPD. Adding 1 extra end per phase is the only way to make Costs End TRULY LIMITING for the character.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Change of Speed

 

If you have +10 STR you only pay END for the phases you use it. If you add +1 speed' date=' you are only 'using' it on one phase in a turn, so, in that way, it wouldn't be different to any other stat.[/quote']

 

That was my first thought, but it's not having STR that costs END - it's exerting it. You have the figured characteristics, the casual STR, the STR complimentary roll for climbing, etc. without spending the END.

 

If you had DEX - Costs END, you'd only have a better DEX roll on the phases you paid the END.

 

Arguably, it should be possible to buy STR - Costs END, and have to spend END just to have the STR available, then spend END again to exert it. But that thought makes my brain hurt.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Which is exactly what I thought. I'm not sure where Hyper-Man is getting his interpretation from.

I was misinterpreting the rule as well.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Well' date=' comparing SPD to STR is really [i']an apples to oranges comparison[/i].

 

SPD to Autofire is actually a better way to understand the ruling. 10d6 EB normaly costs 5 END but if I make it Autofire[5shots] it costs 25 END. Paying 1 END per EXTRA point of SPD per phase EVERY phase based on the TOTAL SPD is not too different since it litterally is allowing extra actions which include movement as well as attacks. The fact that the extra END is being pro-rated over all the phases vs. being paid during just one phase is just an easier to play mechanic.

 

Also, from the fairness side of things.

If I am making a FLASH clone who does NOT have everything bought as 0 END, he would certainly have a very high recovery 20+ to reflect his ability to take multiple actions with a 7-10 SPD. Adding 1 extra end per phase is the only way to make Costs End TRULY LIMITING for the character.

 

HM

 

 

Autofire = 5 attacks so 5 x the active points being utilised, so you pay 5x the END. You pay the END when you use it.

 

+1 speed = 1 more action and you pay END every phase, even if you would have had that phase anyway. Best example would be Speed 11 to Speed 12. The ONLY extra you get is Phase 1, all the others you would have had anyway on the same phases at the same time. You don't get derived combat bonuses for Speed or any advantage in phases other than the the extra action phase and yet in that example you are paying 12 END for a relatively marginal (12/11) increase in speed. If you are taking more actions, you are going to be paying more END for taking them. That is where the 'truly limiting' comes in - you have to go more actions without a recovery. If you were Speed 1 and went up to Speed 2, you would be DOUBLING the number of actions you get - a huge benefit - but only paying 2 END. The less benefit it gives you, the more you pay.

[Basil]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I think it simplifies things if you take this POV: "Fractional SPD" exists on the character sheet, not on the gaming table.

 

By which I mean: "Fractional SPD" is a concept that relates only to designing the character (and 'redesigning' it when spending XPs). When that character is in play, when the player is sitting there moving the character, fighting, interacting, "Fractional SPD" is meaningless.

 

As a comparison: if my character has 4d6 EB, AoE Radius, and is hit with a Drain, it's 10 Active Points per die that Drain is affecting. Now, yeah, I'll probably land up keeping track of, say, 16 points of Drain and how my character recovers from it, and how many dice of EB I have now, and so on. However, I don't have to introduce "Fractional EB, AoE, Radius" to do that. Similarly, I don't need "Fractional SPD" to account for Drains, Aids, etc. It's just a 10 Active Point per (not die but) point 'o speed Power; account for 16 points of Drain just as you would any other 10 Active Point per die Power.

 

 

 

As for pre-5th-Ed. speed changes: Here's what 4th Ed. says:

"OPTIONAL SPEED CHANGE

If the GM wants to allw a character to change his SPD within a turn, the following optional system should be used. It is much more comples, but lets characters with Special Powers (like Multiform and Duplication) use their abilities to the fullest.

Under this system, a character can change his SPD on any Phase he has an action. Changing SPD is a 0 Phase action. After he has changed his SPD, the character cannot act until he has had a Phase for both of the SPDs. Once he has taken an action at the new SPD, he can be considered that SPD for the rest of the Turn."

 

Now, I've always thought this means that a speed-changed character gets a Phase on the next Segment he would at his new SPD, so long as it's a Segment after or simultaneous with one he'd have gotten at his old SPD. So, to go back to the original example, of someone dropped from SPD 6 to SPD 5 on Segment 2: if he were hit after his action, or had volutarily dropped his SPD, his next Phase at SPD 5 would be on Segment 3. However, he wouldn't have acted until Segment 4 if he'd stayed at SPD 6, so he doesn't act on Segment 3. Thus, he doesn't get to act until his next possible Phase at SPD 5; Segment 5. Now, if the character is Drained (Suppressed, etc.) before he gets to act in Segment 2, I believe that Segment 2 counts as his "would have had a Phase" for SPD 6. Thus, when Segment 3 rolls around, that's his "would have had a Phase" for SPD 5, and he gets to act.

 

The example in 4th Ed. certainly accords with the way I've described. However, it also accords with what the FAQs for 5th Ed. clearly states: no action until a simultaneous Phase. Which makes Draining someone just after his first Phase of a Turn an overwhelmingly effective tactic. Decreasing a character's SPD by one right after his first Phase of the Turn means that he won't act until Segment 12 for original SPDs 2-5, until Segment 8 for original SPD 6, and Segment 6 for original SPD 8. Original SPD 7 gets his next Phase on Segment 4, just like he would have anyway, and SPDs 9-11 it's Segment 3 (Segment 2 for SPD 12) the character is "delayed" to. So, higher SPDs aren't as effected, but there are darn few characters with SPDs that high.

 

Oh, and if a character with original SPD of 2-6, 8, or 10 is Drained to SPD 1 in one shot, he'll never get to act at all! At least not until he 'heals' enough of the Drained points.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Autofire = 5 attacks so 5 x the active points being utilised, so you pay 5x the END. You pay the END when you use it.

 

+1 speed = 1 more action and you pay END every phase, even if you would have had that phase anyway. Best example would be Speed 11 to Speed 12. The ONLY extra you get is Phase 1, all the others you would have had anyway on the same phases at the same time. You don't get derived combat bonuses for Speed or any advantage in phases other than the the extra action phase and yet in that example you are paying 12 END for a relatively marginal (12/11) increase in speed. If you are taking more actions, you are going to be paying more END for taking them. That is where the 'truly limiting' comes in - you have to go more actions without a recovery. If you were Speed 1 and went up to Speed 2, you would be DOUBLING the number of actions you get - a huge benefit - but only paying 2 END. The less benefit it gives you, the more you pay.

In fairness, when looking at the extremes of a 12 SPD is a virtual Garanteed Initiative nomatter the DEX of the opposition so it should cost something. Paying just the 1 extra END on that phase does not balance out the effectiveness of that extra point of SPD. Also, you are looking at the 1 END per phase as a major penalty based on the assumption that the character is using some other power or ability that costs END. Well, no matter what my initial SPD is I will actually be able to Run faster when my SPD is increased but spend more END per Turn accordingly. The fact that I chose, as a designer of a character, to put Costs END on the SPD characteristic as opposed to adding Extra END on the powers and abilities I would use during the otherwise extra phase(s) gained is another metagaming choice.

 

The rules for changing SPD being as unweldly as they are regarding Drains and Aids seems to suggest that buying bonus SPD with Extra END is equally unweldy and to be avoided for ease of gameplay for both Player and GM.

 

Anyway, I think this thread has illustrated why it is NOT advisable to take the Costs END limitation on ANY characteristics without risk of major headaches.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I think it simplifies things if you take this POV: "Fractional SPD" exists on the character sheet, not on the gaming table.

 

By which I mean: "Fractional SPD" is a concept that relates only to designing the character (and 'redesigning' it when spending XPs). When that character is in play, when the player is sitting there moving the character, fighting, interacting, "Fractional SPD" is meaningless.

 

And therein lies the problem. Let's look at four characters. Their players all want DEX 27, SPD 3. Don't ask me why - that's their character concept, and is assumed to be appropriate.

 

Player 1 is an inexperienced Hero games. He follows the Hero Party Line and buys 27 DEX, rounds his SPD down to 0 and leaves it at that.

 

Player 2 buys 20 DEX (gettng his 3 SPD) and +7 DEX, no figured. He saves 7 points, which he uses to buy 7 Power Defense.

 

Player 3 buys DEX and SPD the same way as Player 2. However, he's not worried about adjustment powers overall, only losing SPD. So he buys +2 SPD, only to offset adjustment powers which reduce SPD (-2).

 

Player 4 uses a similar approach to Player 3, but invests his 7 points in 21Power Defense (only vs. attacks that would reduce SPD; -2) instead.

 

Who got the best deal?

 

Well, Player 4 will blunt or avoid all SPD reducing abilities. Player 2 will shave a bit off every adjustment power that hits him. Player 4 addressed the protection of his SPD better, but Player 2 has a broader advantage. I'll call them equal.

 

Player 3 got a big deferral, at least, for any power that reduces his speed, so he's next.

 

Player 1 completely wasted 7 points - he thinks that extra 0.7 SPD will at least help him a bit if he's hit with an adjustment power designed to reduce his speed. But, by the rules and the FAQ, he doesn't even get that minor benefit. The only plus he has is that he can buy his SPD up 1 for only 3 xp. considering we established the concpt was that the character has a 27 DEX and a 3 SPD, that's hardly an advantage.

 

Your comment that this POV simplifies the issue is quite correct. However, simplicity and fairness are often directly opposed. If I were applying the rule exactly as written, in good conscience I would have to suggest the "Dex no figured" approach to Player 1 - why should his character be reduced by 7 points because he's not as versed at "working the system"?

[zornwil]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I don't think it's trivial that Player 1 need only spend 3 points to get to the next SPD level. In fact, it's not that bad a trade-off, except against players who are investing in SPD points with limitations, though even then they are, after all, limited. So I'm not sure it's that bad a trade DEPENDING upon the character growth stream planned.

[Basil]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Hugh Neilson, to be blunt:

 

I'm afraid you completely missed both my point, and the general subject of this thread. I said that taking the POV "'Fractional SPD' exists on the character sheet, not on the gaming table." would simplify playing SPD Drains, Aids, etc. A complex example of various ways to build characters is, frankly, irrelevant.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I don't think it's trivial that Player 1 need only spend 3 points to get to the next SPD level. In fact' date=' it's not that bad a trade-off, except against players who are investing in SPD points with limitations, though even then they are, after all, limited. So I'm not sure it's that bad a trade DEPENDING upon the character growth stream planned.[/quote']

 

I'd like to see a player who invests character points see some benefit for it, however minor. As posted above, and despite Basil's views that other uses for the same 7 points are irrelevant, there are numerous mechanics I don't see as all that complex of achieving a similar effect with some benefit from those 7 points invested.

 

And the need to subtract an extra seven points before getting a point of Speed drained doesn't seem any more cumbersome to me than needing to inflict an extra 7 STUN to KO a target (ie buying +7 Stun).

[zornwil]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I'd like to see a player who invests character points see some benefit for it, however minor. As posted above, and despite Basil's views that other uses for the same 7 points are irrelevant, there are numerous mechanics I don't see as all that complex of achieving a similar effect with some benefit from those 7 points invested.

 

And the need to subtract an extra seven points before getting a point of Speed drained doesn't seem any more cumbersome to me than needing to inflict an extra 7 STUN to KO a target (ie buying +7 Stun).

What about the benefit of quickly growing to the next SPD? It only takes 3 XPs for player 1. I don't see that as less than a "minor" benefit.

[Rapier]

Re: Change of Speed

 

I DESPISE SPEED changes.

 

NormalGal has a SPD of 2, on phase 6 she instachanges to her HeroID with a SPD of 6. She still doesn't get an action until 12. That just sucks.

 

I do not allow players to voluntarily change their SPD (the old example I think was someone was drowning and reduced their SPD from 6 to 1 so that they wouldn't drown as fast...WHAT!?!). The only time a SPD would change is with a Aid/Drain/Suppress/etc. In those rare cases when a SPD change actually gets past me (I don't quash it in development) I use the old (BBB?) method that your SPD changes immediately and you get the next phase of your new SPD.

 

No matter what you do, or what method you use, I believe there will always be a chance that you will get more or less phases than you should in that first turn. By ruling that all SPD changes are immediate (and don't need to worry about intersecting phases) it moves things along more fluidly and doesn't hold up the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Change of Speed

 

What about the benefit of quickly growing to the next SPD? It only takes 3 XPs for player 1. I don't see that as less than a "minor" benefit.

 

Until that 3 xp is spent (and my example assumes a concept that would prevent that purchase), those 7 points are completely useless. The character who has purchased +1 SPD, act 14- also need only spend 3 points to get the activation roll eliminated, but also has the benefit of the extra SPD in most turns.

[Kristopher]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Just for the sake of smooth gameplay and my own sanity, a player would have to work very hard to get me to allow +1 SPD with an Activation Roll.

[Rapier]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Just for the sake of smooth gameplay and my own sanity' date=' a player would have to work very hard to get me to allow +1 SPD with an Activation Roll.[/quote']

I'll second that sentiment. The only stat I can think of off hand that I would even consider (and it would still be a tough sell) with an Activation Roll is STR. To my mind, Activation Rolls don't mesh with stats.

[zornwil]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Until that 3 xp is spent (and my example assumes a concept that would prevent that purchase)' date=' those 7 points are completely useless. The character who has purchased +1 SPD, act 14- also need only spend 3 points to get the activation roll eliminated, but also has the benefit of the extra SPD in most turns.[/quote']

Shrug, I'm not saying it's equal value, but I can only agree to disagree that it's not valueless.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Right: +1 Speed with activation roll is easy enough because you only roll once per turn, right at the start, so you know what the speed for that turn is and it doesn't chage 'in turn', but if you don't want it, don't have it. To balance the odds you don't have to make activation rolls every phase, SO LONG AS YOU MAKE THEM AT SET INTERVALS, not just when the player wants to activate, for example you could roll all activations at the beginning of every turn and the player could either use or not use the power for the whole turn. Mathematically it makes no difference doing it that way.

 

SPEED costing END...well I see it as a 10 active point power you use once per turn (see the activation roll point above), so it should cost a commensurate amount of END. You are not getting advantages like increased OCV/DCV or anything, just one more phase....which is of course useful...but only costs 10 active points.

 

Build cost: I can see absolutely no point in saying you can not buy your fractional speed back. It has always been done that way, and was done in FRED (see 'senior citizen' write up, until they changed it in the FAQ and erratta). Steve won't discuss design philosophy, but I can't think of one good reason to disallow the buy back of fractional speed. Having said that, and as Hugh Neilson pointed out - 27 DEX, 3 SPD: never going to happen.

 

In game cost: I can see more sense in ignoring fractional speed for in game mechanics - then 10 points in loss of one speed, but I have never found it at all difficult or confusing to allow a character with fractional speed to use the unused points as a small buffer against speed loss. Unless someone can give me a good reason why not (and I am beginning to feel that 'because that is the way it is done in HERO' is not a good reason) I would be inclined to stick with what I know.

 

Zornwil points out that being able to buy an extra point of speed for 3 points is an advantage, and I agree there is utility there, but it is no more an advantage than any of the other methods suggested: if you could buy (in Hugh Neilson's example) as the Player 3 or 4 example, you could (when you had the extra points) persuade the GM to move the points around to let you change it to 27DEX 4SPD, so you would have the same utility anyway. Mind you, I don't think I have ever bought back fractional speed unless I am designing a GM character for a particular purpose. Speed is useful and quite cheap.

 

Finally involuntary speed changes: I don't think they work right in the present system, although most of the time you don't notice any difficulties there is still room for inequities in changing speed. The system I suggested earlier works better, but I'm sure you can think of your own ways to do it. Will 5ER sort the problem....? Voluntary speed changes can largely be limited to end of turn...except with things like multiforms/aids and so on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Change of Speed

 

Build cost: I can see absolutely no point in saying you can not buy your fractional speed back. It has always been done that way' date=' and was done in FRED (see 'senior citizen' write up, until they changed it in the FAQ and erratta). Steve won't discuss design philosophy, but I can't think of one good reason to disallow the buy back of fractional speed. Having said that, and as Hugh Neilson pointed out - 27 DEX, 3 SPD: never going to happen.[/quote']

 

Buy your last 7 DEX "no figured". You get the same result with no rules argument. You can also sell back another figured stat if you want.

 

Zornwil points out that being able to buy an extra point of speed for 3 points is an advantage' date=' and I agree there is utility there, but it is no more an advantage than any of the other methods suggested: if you could buy (in Hugh Neilson's example) as the Player 3 or 4 example, you could (when you had the extra points) persuade the GM to move the points around to let you change it to 27DEX 4SPD, so you would have the same utility anyway. Mind you, I don't think I have ever bought back fractional speed unless I am designing a GM character for a particular purpose. Speed is useful and quite cheap.[/quote']

 

Player: "I want to buy off my "No Figured" on 7 DEX and spend 3 points to round my Speed up to 4."

 

GM: "No way. You took the limitation on your DEX and you're stuck with it. Don't be a munchkin!"

 

[Hours of argument deleted]

 

Player: "OK, if that's the way you want to play it. I'll leave the limitation on my 7 DEX and spend my 10 xp to buy my Speed up 1 point."

 

GM: "OK, that's more like it."