multiform - is this for real?

[secretID]

I'm very new to the system. The powers with exponential adders (multiform, duplication, etc.) and some 1/5-type rules like multiform and follower seem off to me, multiform and follower have both, and multiform in particular seems screwy.

 

This is my understanding:

If I am limited to 200 starting points, 150 disadvantages, and 75 individual power active cost, I can have a 75-point multiform built on 375 points, and still have plenty to spare on the main form. I could also have, say, 16 different multiforms built on 275 points each.

 

The abusive possibilities are obvious, but even using the rule as it seems to be intended (as in the vari-armor example in the 5E rules and in the doppelganger power set in the Champions book), it looks much too powerful to me.

 

I've been poking around a big PBEM site (Global Guardians), and I didn't see a single multiform, duplication, or follower, though there's no house rule against them, so I've been wondering if I'm just misunderstanding these rules, or missing some big disadvantage.

 

The 75-point active cost limit keeps duplication from getting out of hand (and also prevents any advantage on duplication, unfortunately), but it doesn't stop multiform.

 

As I said, I'm wondering about the other exponential and 1/5-type abilities, too.

 

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Steve Long]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

Since this isn't really a rules question, but more some sort of exploration of game balance and management issues, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so anyone who'd like to can chime in.

[secretID]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

Sorry about my confusion. Right after I posted this, I posted both my Qs under another heading in this forum:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25393

[simplygnome]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

While the Hero System is a great tool, it has several balancing problems if taken at face value. As the "Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit" it provides a GM or player base to create a world/system that fits their playstyle(s).

 

The problem with Multiform is that it can be abused if left un-checked by the GM. However, the same goes for many other powers in the Hero System.

 

For example, lets look at sweep. A Sweep allows a character to attack as many times as he'd like to in a turn, but take a -2 to each attack, cumulative, when doing so. Every smart player, at some time in his/her career, has had the ingenious idea of buying CSLs at 5pts a lvl (5 is the lowest point value of CSL that can have disads), with the -1 advantage of ONLY FOR USE WITH SWEEP. Lets buy, say 60pts worth of anti-sweep CSLs, with another random -1 of your favorite disads, and we have +12 to our OCV for the effect of degating up to 6 extra attacks per Phase, all for a mesely 20pts. Now we have just effectively turned our large BRICK powerhouse, into a Speedster Brick, with 280 pts (assuming we're going off of 300pt total) to spend on powerhousing and body slams. Heck, lets add some Martial Arts in there while we're at it =P.

 

However, any GM who's idea for the campaign is not at that level of pure power would, and HAS, simply dissallowed it, for balancing issues. Many GMS will do the same for transformations, multiforms, and duplicates.

 

Another balancing factor with Multi-form is the "pants down" issue. While most heros dont mind taking OIHID or other such powers, many do not like the ability to be cause without his/her defenses.

 

For example, we're building Magnetron, who has the control over magnetism and metal. He can use his magnetic energy to transform himself into Auto-maton, a large metallic creature whose body is created from magnetically charged hunks of scrap metal that Magnetron finds around the scenery. In his original for Magnetron is a decent Blaster like character with some mild TK, a few flight maneuvers, and maybe a small forcefield. Now in Auto-maton form, he is a hulking mass of twisted metal, with high PD/ED, BDY, STR, and a few special defenses/attacks.

 

Evil villian #1 shoots a large ion cannon (of evil) at our new hero for 8d6 killing damage. If he is in his original form, Magnetron will most likely fall quickly under the blast. Even with his FF, Magnetron probably can't stand against that kind of pure damage. While in Magnetron form, however, he would easily withstand the blast.

 

Many superheros just dont want to deal with the idea of being caught with his defenses down. Magnetron wont be as good of manipulator or blaster as someone who uses ALL of his/her points on magnetic control, but he will have a specialty "brick" form IF he changes in time.

 

As it states in FReD, the new form should have its own set of disadvantages as well. Many GMs will make the players create disadvantages so that the player will not beable to stay, or will not WANT to stay, in his altered form forever.

 

For example, Magnetron while in Auto-maton for has take the physical diabilities of weighing over 3,500 lbs, and standing in at 14'6". You can see how this would make normal living much harder to accomplish. On top of that, Magnetron is spending so much of his energy in keeping the form together that he doesn't have the fine manipulation to create a moveable jaw for Auto-maton, therefore he cannot speak while in his power-form. Auto-Maton is in the middle of an epic battle with Serpenta, when the Police Department shows up. Looking at the hulking tower of twisted metal, they assume the worst and open fire. Without ability to talk, he'll have to revert back to Magnetron, giving Serpenta the upper hand while he is in his less defensive state.

 

Another bit of GM ruling I've seen has been to limit the power selection for characters who take multi-form. We have Super Dan, a natural Tank and Brick based character, and Magnetron, a magnetic manipulating genius. While Magnetron is mainly a blaster based character with several tricks up his sleeve, Super Dan is nothing more than a large muscular brick. The GM rules that since Super Dan in the true BRICK, he has access to all defense abilities and such, while Magnetron and his Auto-Maton form is prohibited from taking Damage Reduction (and maybe a lower limit to his PD). While Mags. Brick form might be built on 375 points and SDs only 350, SD will be a MUCH better brick, while Magnetron will be more of a "versatility" tool than anything else.

 

Mainly, when looking at balance, a GM and a player have to check:

1) What genre is being played

2) What the general playerbase is playing/allowed to play

3) What the overal competition will be...

 

MANY sections of the Hero system are not taken at face value in most of my campaign. Sweep, Damage Reduction, Two-weapon fighting, ALL matrial arts, attacks while desolidified, the auto-fire adder, OIHID, and many MANY others.

 

This is really just a GM balance issue. For more abuses, check out this thread to see a few other "legal" abuses that can be done "by the rules".

 

Honestly, I have never had a problem with multiform in my campaigns...Than again, you are looking at a rather LARGE PBEM game, so things might be a bit different. You're dealing with a rather larger playerbase. Hope this helps...Have fun.

[Blackjack]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

Excellent points, Simplygnome.

 

The truth is that ANY system can be misused and abused. In the case of a role-playing game, that's part of what the GM is for. However, just because something CAN be abused by a handful of munchkins doesn't mean that it doesn't work for most of the people, most of the time...

 

I agree with Simplygnome. From my personal experience, the rules for Multiform, Duplication, and the like actually work pretty well. If, as you become more comfortable with the system, you don't agree, you can modify them to fit your game. For example you could charge 1 CP for every 2 points in the other form. You could even disallow them completely in your game if you wish.

 

Welcome to HERO system. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do!

[secretID]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I like the game design overall, but I still think multiform, duplication, summon, etc. are a bit screwy, even when the theme is coherent and there isn't anything abusive. I said more at the end of this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25393

 

I hope I'm not being a pest - I didn't come here just to criticize. I'm interested in people's thoughts.

 

p.s. I made things confusing with multiple threads - I was hoping this one would die out.

[Blackjack]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I don't think you're being a "pest" at all. That's what these discussion boards are for...

 

... and if I have any further comment, I'll post it on the other thread.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

Lets not forget that ultimately, any power in the book (almost) can be abused if the GM doesn't monitor usage.

[Agent X]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I'm gonna respond here.

 

The problem with limiting multiform in what appears on the face of it to be a way to prevent horribly abusive constructions is that, given time building stuff with HERO, you would discover that some very cool non-abusive constructions would become prohibitively difficult to build.

[simplygnome]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

Blackjack, thank you very much for the positive words. =D

 

Secret ID, you're not being a pest at all. I know EVERYONE that has played/plays the hero system runs into a rules problem at some time in their career. You're doing the right thing....Heck, I learn new tricks from new players all the time...

 

The fact is that MF IS tricky in that you can't just cap off a limit and let it go free. It must be monitored by the DM in its use and concept.

 

In the same way you say that limiting MF will restrict some of the "cooler" things it can do later on, every power gets restricted that way.

 

For example, when a hero campaign puts any limit (like your proposed 75pts) on a power, they limit at least one "cool" special effect that could have taken place for almost every power. What if I wanted to make a final destruction move with upper levels of EB and add in huge AOE, but added -8 in disadvantages? I still couldn't break the limit or get the desired effect that I wanted, because of the hardcap...no matter how I built the power, even if I tried to make it a "fair" power.

 

Maybe in this case its warranted, but in another I wanted to make a "luck" based superhero, and the 50 pt cap set by the GM overthrew my concept. He specifically let me break this, because it was for concept.

 

On another, I liked making wizards with very rare, difficult to use, and self-harming magic. With an upward of -5 in disads on each spell, I wanted magic that would be WORTH all the penalties I took, including side effects and extra time. Putting a cap (this one was 40, for a heroic) really didnt show my character the way I wanted it to...It sorely gimped him by making his magic so weak, compared to the penalties. By building him fairly and presenting him to the DM, I got him approved...Because I took appropriate limitations to compensate for having an almost non-existant cap. This wouldnt have been done without GM moderation (then again, fantasy is a whole different ball game... =P)

 

When ANY hardcap is used, it will add limitations to all powers. What about the roleplayers that want to add "invisible" or other adders, that dont overly powergame, just because it adds "flair" or fits their "concept"? Should they be punished with a weaker character because they didn't powergame and only add "the best" adders? They are limited in the same way that MF is limited if you set a hard cap....to prevent powergaming they are reduced in versatility and are cut off from other "non-munchkin" uses.

 

The basis is that the Hero system requires a real sharp DM eye on things, REGARDLESS of the power.

 

On an end note...When you or your friends (ie, not the large scale PBEM) get together and play, you should discuss this with them and tailor it to your need. I'd have no problem playing in a campaign that did so...I just don't see a reason to do it in mine....Good luck though...

[Alibear]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I've made a GMing decision concerning Multiform the 1st time I read FREd!

 

The 2nd form cannot be built on more points than the form building it - the points spent on multiform, and that my fine fat friendly players is final. No exceptions and no discussions. YMMV.

[Rapier]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I've made a GMing decision concerning Multiform the 1st time I read FREd!

 

The 2nd form cannot be built on more points than the form building it - the points spent on multiform, and that my fine fat friendly players is final. No exceptions and no discussions. YMMV.

That's awfully limiting. The problem with blanket statements is that you can really hose some really good concepts.

 

- Normal Average EveryDay Joe - built on 100pts...turns into an ass-kickin WereChihuahua when he smells TacoBell. The WereChihuahua is built on 350 pts.

 

I've got a couple of characters that are built along a similar premise. Base form is a normal female archeologist. Multiform is a 6' tall arabian knight with a bit of magic.

 

Rules are good. But in Hero, you don't want to leave out the good stuff because there is a potential for abuse.

[Alibear]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

My rule was intended to stop a 350 point character spending 350 points on MF and building MEGAMAN the 1000+ monstrosity and then arguing about it with me later stating "But Steve has it in the rules"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

My rule was intended to stop a 350 point character spending 350 points on MF and building MEGAMAN the 1000+ monstrosity and then arguing about it with me later stating "But Steve has it in the rules"

 

And I would disallow this construct as well. But I would simply tell the player that Steve also has in the rules that the GM should not permit unbalanced characters, and the ability to place a 1,000+ point character in a group of 350 point characters is simply unbalanced.

 

I would also state that, as a general rule (I'm open to a possible exception, as always) no form may have more points than the campaign limit starting points + disadvantages, plus the character's experience. That disallows Megaman right there.

 

[What exceptions might I allow? Well, a 75+75 fantasy mage with a spell that urns him into a 500 point dragon dragon, where there are limitations and drawbacks involved with invoking and maintaining the spell would be a good example - a spell that allows limited access to a dragon's powers is a neat fantasy concept, but a PC able to maintain a 500 point dragon form indefinitely, with no major drawbacks, is just unbalanced.]

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

This is a great thread. I haven't even experimented with a Multiform character since back in the Hero 4 days. You guys have sparked some long-unused neurons into action. Very cool.

[secretID]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I got even more worked up here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25472

[simplygnome]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

Glad you're getting inspiration for 'lil 'ol us...

 

I agree with Rapier, but I do see your point Alibear.

 

Once again, there are great concepts out there that could warrant spending over the characters points in multi-form. I too would disallow the MegaMan character, but there are many others that I would let by, given the right reasons.

 

For the Dragon transformation example, I can see allowing a 75 + 75 mage to stay in a 500pt power form to be totally overpowered. However, if the mage had:

 

1) to use rare and (hazardly) dangerous to aquire components (say the corpse of a pheonix, somehow contained from self-exploding of course, a scale from seven different dragons, and a branch from a living Oak-Treant lord)

 

2) took two weeks to complete the ritual, during which he was completely concentrating on the preparations with barely enough time to each and sleep (not to mention bath)

 

3) required a skill roll (every hour) to maintain control of the dragon

 

4) while also gaining side effects of dragon Psychological Limitations of compulsion and greed

 

then I would agree.

 

It really all depends on how you build your character and what you plan to do with it...If its an obvious abuse, then of course I limit it, but I dont like to make blanket statements. If I DO make a flat confining rules decision, then I usually add "unless otherwise specified by me...Feel free to put out ideas, and I'll give you the thumbs up or thumbs down...".

 

In a current campaign I'm working on, I'm creating multi-form spells in the Druidic tradition line. Since the character points are only 50+25, Im allowing the spell to bypass the original character point limit (heavily modified and put in a framework to make it affordable, of course). One particular spell is transformation into a 150pt bear form, and a ??? pt unicorn and/or wyvern form (I havent made the last two yet, but Im almost sure theyre in the upards of 175++). They are, of course, heavily limited in duration and useability, and come with their own disadvantages....But they are being balanced out, so I feel comfortable letting it into my campaign.

 

For a more "superhero-y" example, I made a character completely based on Duplicates. I literally spent 120 ISH pts (max for powers them was 50) of a 250pt character on the Duplicates. The remaining pts went into creating the rest of the character, which was a normal child, comic fan-boy, of age 13. I made a total of three duplicates (each 250pts each...pts EQUAL to the other PCs), all using the altered duplicate advantage. However, the main character, while using the power, was unconscious (total concentration, with no memory of the incident) while using multi-form and could ONLY activate it if he saw or knew of "immediate" danger in the area (He had to practiacally be traumatized. If he thought the rest of the party might survive the encounter, he couldnt even try to help them, therefore, he was left out of several missions, because he couldnt activate his powers). If the "original" died, the duplicates would immediated disperse. Certaintly I went above and beyond my point cap, and some of the other players, but I was certaintly not the "hero of heroes" as it were, because of my disadvantages, and rather "squishy" nature. I made sure that I was situationally used, and not able to abuse the rights the DM had given me (hey, I had 12 body...I got KOed once from being hit with a high velocity baby cart...dont ask =P).

 

--------------------------------

((The character, for those that want to know, was Tommy Garner, an avid comic fan and super hero enthusiest. Unknown to him, he posses latent reality control powers, able to alter the order around him to fit his needs. When he was playing in his father's office building he accidentially saw Mentallia kill a high ranking official. She quickly turned on the little boy, to erase all witnesses. In his frightened state, Tommy passed out, and his powers manifested themselves in one of the most natural forms Tommy's subconscious could think of --- the form of SUPERHEROES. On the spot, three badly drawn (and CRAYOLA colored), cheesy dialect ridden, heros "flew in" to save the day, thus Sergent Freedom, Mistress Magica, and Fantastic Elastic were born. Creating a super group know as The Fantastics, they beat back Mentallia into retreating and have since stayed hidden in the shadows, always diving in out of no where to help out their junior side-kick, Tommy.))[/i]

--------------------------------------

 

All in all, however, if it works for you then fine... Its not called the Ultimate Gamers Toolkit for nothin'

[secretID]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

That's a very cool character.

 

What do you think of what I proposed in the other thread? I think it could make that character much more neatly.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

What do you think of what I proposed in the other thread?

 

I am honestly not familiar enough with the intricacies of Duplication and Multiform to know whether or not they need revision, much less whether your suggestion would be an improvement. It looks like you have given it some thought, though. Maybe someone more experienced with those Powers than I can provide some useful feedback.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I've been poking around a big PBEM site (Global Guardians), and I didn't see a single multiform, duplication, or follower, though there's no house rule against them, so I've been wondering if I'm just misunderstanding these rules, or missing some big disadvantage.

 

I think the big thing here is that ANY Global Guardians character has to pass review three times. First the GM has to like the concept. Then the GM has to like the stats. Then the Auditors have to approve.

 

The first step weeds out a lot of concepts - if you try to submit a 'boring broken construction' - you won't play. The GM doesn't have to say yes, because they have to turn down SOMEONE.

 

The second and third instead do a bit of a number on anything else broken by rebuilding some constructs... if you were thinking "I want Power X with advantages Y and Z, and adder Q" but describe it in way that "Power D" does... then your wonderful brokenness goes on vacation.

 

All up, given all that... where's the point in trying to break anything?

 

 

Now, elsewhere, ppl try to minmax, and multiform is a useful tool. But far from the best.

[Crimson Arrow]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

That's awfully limiting. The problem with blanket statements is that you can really hose some really good concepts.

 

- Normal Average EveryDay Joe - built on 100pts...turns into an ass-kickin WereChihuahua when he smells TacoBell. The WereChihuahua is built on 350 pts.

 

I haven't done a Multiform character for ages, but isn't the solution that the WereChihuahua is the base character and, in his 350 points, he pays 20 to have his alternate form?

 

Admittedly, the WereChihuahua loses 20 points from the concept that way, but it's not an enormous problem when you consider that he is going to have the benefit of an alter ego built on 100 points (which is likely to have some useful skills or powers at that level).

[Rapier]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I haven't done a Multiform character for ages, but isn't the solution that the WereChihuahua is the base character and, in his 350 points, he pays 20 to have his alternate form?

 

Admittedly, the WereChihuahua loses 20 points from the concept that way, but it's not an enormous problem when you consider that he is going to have the benefit of an alter ego built on 100 points (which is likely to have some useful skills or powers at that level).

The old rule (BBB) was that the most expensive form pays the Multiform. The new rule (FREd) is that whatever is the natural form pays the Multiform. In this case (lycanthropy), I always consider the base form to be the Human one.

 

If a dragon wants to have a human multiform, the dragon pays the MF.

If a druid wants to have badger, hawk and squirrel MFs, the human pays the MF.

 

It's a MUCH more natural and intuitive method.

[Crimson Arrow]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

The old rule (BBB) was that the most expensive form pays the Multiform. The new rule (FREd) is that whatever is the natural form pays the Multiform. In this case (lycanthropy), I always consider the base form to be the Human one.

 

If a dragon wants to have a human multiform, the dragon pays the MF.

If a druid wants to have badger, hawk and squirrel MFs, the human pays the MF.

 

It's a MUCH more natural and intuitive method.

 

I can agree with that, but since when has 'natural and intuitive' ruled how something's done in HERO?

 

That change, coupled with Alibear's ruling really would get rid of some fairly standard concepts, but maybe he allows characters to be constructed following the 4th Edn rules. I can see an argument for saying that the most powerful form shouldn't exceed (or at least not exceed by much) the campaign levels, but that doesn't seem to be what he's saying.

[Kristopher]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

I think the big thing here is that ANY Global Guardians character has to pass review three times. First the GM has to like the concept. Then the GM has to like the stats. Then the Auditors have to approve.

 

The first step weeds out a lot of concepts - if you try to submit a 'boring broken construction' - you won't play. The GM doesn't have to say yes, because they have to turn down SOMEONE.

 

The second and third instead do a bit of a number on anything else broken by rebuilding some constructs... if you were thinking "I want Power X with advantages Y and Z, and adder Q" but describe it in way that "Power D" does... then your wonderful brokenness goes on vacation.

 

All up, given all that... where's the point in trying to break anything?

 

 

Now, elsewhere, ppl try to minmax, and multiform is a useful tool. But far from the best.

 

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of perfectly valid and very creative builds called "broken" or "munchkiny" on these boards by people who have hangups about certain things, while other things that I find worrisome for purely mechanical reasons seem to get no comment at all.

[OddHat]

Re: multiform - is this for real?

 

On the other hand' date=' I've seen a lot of perfectly valid and very creative builds called "broken" or "munchkiny" on these boards by people who have hangups about certain things, while other things that I find worrisome for purely mechanical reasons seem to get no comment at all.[/quote']

 

Yup. It's very subjective, and relative to the group as a whole and the campaign. Are all of the 1:5 powers "broken"? What about VPPs? What about STR, and CON, and Density Increase, and Armor, and all the other powers that save you a few points here and there? On the boards the argument itself often seems to be the game, but in play it comes down to "Is it fun for both the players and the GM" and "Does it make a good story". If the answe to both of those questions is yes, I don't see a problem.