Armor (equipment) questions

[Warp9]

There are a couple of things I’d like to discuss here.

 

One thing I’ve noticed is that Heavy Kevlar has gone from 7 DEF to 11 DEF, that is more than a 150% jump between 4th and 5th editions. How do you all feel about that. Does it make more sense the new way?

 

The average damage of a .50 Cal HMG is 10.5 Body (from a 3d6 RKA), so on average this would not do any damage to someone in heavy kevlar.

 

I’m definitely no expert on the matter, but it was my impression that a .50 Cal HMG would pretty much go right through personal body armor (even heavy modern personal armor), so it seems to me like the old way makes more sense. But maybe some of you who know more on this subject than I do can speak to this point.

 

 

The second issue that I was interested in is “armor layering.â€

 

I have at least one character in my game who is wearing powered armor. I’m talking about something like “Star Ship Troopers†(the book) gorilla sized personal armor. And if the character wore kevlar underneath (or something even better than kevlar considering the tech level), then the defenses would be pretty high from all the armor cumulative bonuses.

 

I could simply rule that it is not possible to wear armor underneath the powered armor, but it seems to me that if the suit could be built accommodate a large person, it could be made to accommodate a smaller person with some kevlar. The Powered Armor is large and heavy, and there are places where it might not be possible to take it, so it does make some sense that the wearer might also have some lighter armor underneath.

 

 

If we assume that the Hero system works on an exponential basis, then the direct adding of armor bonuses does not make sense: a 20 DEF object is much more than 2 X as tough as a 10 DEF object. So, it seems to me, two sets of 10 PD armor added together should not equal 20 PD.

 

I am considering ruling that, if a person wears 2 types of armor, then only the higher rated armor applies, the lower def armor is insignificant in comparison (this fits in pretty well with the exponential concept).

 

Or I could use Shadowrun’s method for layering armor, that method is to cut the lower rated armor’s def in half.

 

What methods (if any) do the rest of you use for armor layering?

[Aroooo]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

For Heroic games, I tend to either not allow layering, or at most half the value of the second layer. For Supers games, it all adds up - since presumably characters have paid points for armor.

 

Aroooo

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Using half the value of the lesser armor is a good fix. Don't forget to apply encumbrance penalties for both layers of armor in full. The Encumbrance rules alone is enough to discourage too much armor layering for most people.

 

As far as Heavy Kevlar is concerned, I'm not sure exactly how effective the stuff is. Anyone know any websites with that kind of information?

 

Kevlar has always been more effective against handgun rounds than against Rifle rounds with higher muzzle velocities. DEF 7 will stop the average damage of a .50 handgun, so that sounds pretty good to me. Even an 8 or 9 DEF would suffice. 11 seems too much in my opinion.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Well, remember that a .50 caliber HMG is going to be firing in autofire mode, AND a character is not going to be covered head to foot in heavy kevlar, AND it is just the AVERAGE damage that is 10.5. A significant percentage of shots will penetrate the armor, and a significant percentage of shots will hit unarmored areas.

[Warp9]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

For Heroic games, I tend to either not allow layering, or at most half the value of the second layer. For Supers games, it all adds up - since presumably characters have paid points for armor.

 

Aroooo

Actually this situation is somewhat of a gray area. I'm using "Equipment Pools" out of which the characters are supposed to pay for their equipment. So they are actually paying points for the stuff, but it is still more like a heroic game in most ways.

[Warp9]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Using half the value of the lesser armor is a good fix. Don't forget to apply encumbrance penalties for both layers of armor in full. The Encumbrance rules alone is enough to discourage too much armor layering for most people.

 

As far as Heavy Kevlar is concerned, I'm not sure exactly how effective the stuff is. Anyone know any websites with that kind of information?

 

Kevlar has always been more effective against handgun rounds than against Rifle rounds with higher muzzle velocities. DEF 7 will stop the average damage of a .50 handgun, so that sounds pretty good to me. Even an 8 or 9 DEF would suffice. 11 seems too much in my opinion.

 

As for the encumbrance thing relative to the armor. That is a very good point and it would apply in many cases. However, in my specific case, I'm not sure that it will work. The character's powered armor has its own artificial muscles (it sort of takes care of the effort of moving itself, you don't really feel its weight while you wear it), so I'm not sure that encumbrance would be that much of a factor.

 

I also appreciate getting your opinion on the Kevlar issue.

[Warp9]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Well' date=' remember that a .50 caliber HMG is going to be firing in autofire mode, AND a character is not going to be covered head to foot in heavy kevlar, AND it is just the AVERAGE damage that is 10.5. A significant percentage of shots will penetrate the armor, and a significant percentage of shots will hit unarmored areas.[/quote']

 

I'll grant you that, in many cases it will not matter that single shots will not punch through the armor, because the net effect of a full blast of auto fire will still kill you just as dead.

 

The problem with your argument is that it makes some assumptions that are not always valid, and I believe that it sidesteps the issue somewhat. First of all, the burst of auto-fire might be directed at a group of people, in which case individuals may not be hit multiple times.

 

And second, there are other weapons which are very much like the .50 Cal HMG, but that do not fire at the same rate. The best example I can think of is the RAI Model 500 (which is a .50 Cal sniper rifle).

 

The RAI Model 500 has a muzzle energy of 18,137 Joules, which is almost identical to the 18,539 for the HMG. And as a basis for comparison, consider that the .44 mag Desert Eagle only has a muzzle energy of 1,530 Joules (which is still very high, some pistols come in at around 200 J).

 

The RAI 500 is used against larger and heavier targets like vehicles. It seems to me that it should probably not be blocked by personal kevlar armor (IMO, of course). And again RAI 500 is not designed for a high rate of fire, so the autofire argument would not apply in that case.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Also, don't be afraid to adjust the writeups of the weapons a bit to get the feel right.

 

If you need "Heavy Kevlar" in your games to almost completely stop Handgun rounds (up to and including .50 Desert Eagle), then you may need DEF 11 for your heavy kevlar, however, if you want the weapons with the higher energy levels to blow through that armor, simply apply a level of AP or PEN to such weaponry. Problem solved.

 

Of course, that opens up a new issue of the weapons being able to destroy vehicles too easily....

 

Ah well, back to the drawing board!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Does anyone know if there is a thread that already discussed kevlar armor vs. Fantasy Hero weapons and visa-versa? Specifically for a cross time/dimensional game setting that can take characters from any setting to just about any other setting for each adventure?

 

HM

[Lanith]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

I'll grant you that, in many cases it will not matter that single shots will not punch through the armor, because the net effect of a full blast of auto fire will still kill you just as dead.

 

The problem with your argument is that it makes some assumptions that are not always valid, and I believe that it sidesteps the issue somewhat. First of all, the burst of auto-fire might be directed at a group of people, in which case individuals may not be hit multiple times.

 

And second, there are other weapons which are very much like the .50 Cal HMG, but that do not fire at the same rate. The best example I can think of is the RAI Model 500 (which is a .50 Cal sniper rifle).

 

The RAI Model 500 has a muzzle energy of 18,137 Joules, which is almost identical to the 18,539 for the HMG. And as a basis for comparison, consider that the .44 mag Desert Eagle only has a muzzle energy of 1,530 Joules (which is still very high, some pistols come in at around 200 J).

 

The RAI 500 is used against larger and heavier targets like vehicles. It seems to me that it should probably not be blocked by personal kevlar armor (IMO, of course). And again RAI 500 is not designed for a high rate of fire, so the autofire argument would not apply in that case.

 

Warp, I love that you quote the energy behind the bullets for the two guns, but seem to forget one thing. Someone firing the .50 HMG is generally firing for "effect" (Getting a group to seek cover, destroy cover, etc.) where as the person firing the RAI 500 is firing for a very different "effect" (precise injury or death).

 

Argument in game terms: Your argument doesn't apply quite accurately. Both guns would do equal damage, one with the advantage of auto-fire the other with the advantage of Armor Piercing.

[pinecone]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Not much to add though I'd handle the layering problem with power armor by looking quizicaly at the player and say "A layer of kevlar type undies is part of the suit...it was disigned by an engineer you know..."...problem avoided, after all chain mail is almost useless without the padded/leather under coat....

[CraterMaker]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

I like Pinecone's response to the problem!

 

As far as the Heavy Kevlar armor levels, 11 does seem a tad high.. I'd probably make 11 armor the equivalant of clam-shell type armor, built over a suit of super kevlar (artificial spider silk derivitave?). But, as you know, YMMV, adjust it for your campain for maximum effect.

 

-CraterMaker

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Not much to add though I'd handle the layering problem with power armor by looking quizicaly at the player and say "A layer of kevlar type undies is part of the suit...it was disigned by an engineer you know..."...problem avoided' date=' after all chain mail is almost useless without the padded/leather under coat....[/quote']

 

Pretty much. If I was going for realism, I would point out that you don't actually have rules for stacking types of armour. I'd let them wear the Kevlar, sure, but I wouldn't have any added DEF. Now, once they get peeled out of the tin can, that might help a bit...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

On a Heroic level, the Kevlar suit would count as "part" of the total armor of the suit. Even if it didn't that encumbrance piece would come into play.

 

For superheroic, it gets stickier, but then you have things like Campaign caps... so look at the total suit armor plus personal armor and see if it exceeds your caps.

 

Back on heroic level, I think one of the best ways to facilitate the gun vs. armor issue without resorting to escalating damages is to make all pistols "reduced penetration." I think this is the simplest way to best represent the low velocity rounds. Unarmored opponents still have to worry, but armored ones, not so much. This also allows armor to stay low, more realistic in how much it absorbs.

 

Finally, I'd give higher velocity rounds what I call "light armor piercing." I use diff. AP rules. Instead of halving the defense, I have an AP attack subtract the body rolled from the non-hardened defense. (2d6 AP does 7 Bod on average... so on average 7 points of defense are subtracted from target defenses.)

 

For Light AP... have only one die of the attack AP. Example, 2d6 attack, 1d6 of it AP... so roll a 3 on that die and a 4 on the other. Seven body total, but only subtract 3 from the defenses. (roll different colored dice.)

 

This is really effective at heroic levels, for simulating 7.62 rounds or such. I'd give the RAI at least 1d6 of AP, out of 3... if not 2.

 

 

Just some suggestions I've had work in similar cyber-hero/DI type games.

[Warp9]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Warp, I love that you quote the energy behind the bullets for the two guns, but seem to forget one thing. Someone firing the .50 HMG is generally firing for "effect" (Getting a group to seek cover, destroy cover, etc.) where as the person firing the RAI 500 is firing for a very different "effect" (precise injury or death).

If a bullet hits you squarely in the chest, IMO it should not matter what the reason for firing it was (or even if it hit you by accident). It seems to me that it should be a simple matter of looking at the characteristics of the bullet (mass, speed, size, etc. . . .).

 

The bottom line is that when a single round hits with the impact of either the RAI 500, or the HMG, it should tear through kevlar armor. (at least that is my understanding of the situation)

 

A sub-machine gun might get around armor by firing a massive number of shots, but an HMG shouldn't have to. The same thing is true of the RAI 500, you do not need to be all that precise when you have that kind of power.

 

 

Argument in game terms: Your argument doesn't apply quite accurately. Both guns would do equal damage, one with the advantage of auto-fire the other with the advantage of Armor Piercing.

Although there is not much precident for it, I could see giving a sniper rifle an inherint Find Weakness ability, or maybe levels to add to damage. And I could also see it being used to aim at the unarmored portions of a target, but I don't think that Armor Piercing is justified unless the RAI is using different ammo than the HMG (or unless you also want to make the HMG AP as well).

[Warp9]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

Not much to add though I'd handle the layering problem with power armor by looking quizicaly at the player and say "A layer of kevlar type undies is part of the suit...it was disigned by an engineer you know..."...problem avoided' date=' after all chain mail is almost useless without the padded/leather under coat....[/quote']

That solution should work fine.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Armor (equipment) questions

 

I should caveat that I meant give the RAI and the HMG rounds some level of AP. I think ANY hv round should have a level of AP.