Element Control Tweaking

[Deadman]

Just wanted to get some input on how I use Element Control in my games.

 

I've been playing the Hero System since '81 and have adjusted my House Rules with each revision. The second edition (printed in '82) had a different way of constructing ECs (one that I still use). It went something like this...

 

When using an Element Control the first power (highest cost) is bought at full points, each subsequent power cost half. As with the current rules I scrutinize each EC carefully to weed out abusiveness.

 

With this rule in place the example EC (5ER pg. 316) would look like this.

 

EC - Ice Powers

60 Ice Darts: EB 8d6 Armor Piercing (+1/2)

26 Ice Armor: Force Field (20 PD/15 ED), 0 End (+1/2)

25 Ice Bonds: Entangle (5d6, 5 Def)

25 Ice Slides: Running 20", 1/2 End (+1/4)

12 Ice Wall: Force Wall (12 PD/8 ED); 4 Charges (-1)

148 Total Cost

 

According to the example above you save a whopping 1 point but I allow a lot of leniency with regard to what powers can go in an EC. I allow Special Powers, No End cost powers and others. I also let low cost powers in as well; for example I would let a character buy IR vision in the above for only 2 points. (I know I am a sucker!) I find that this helps reward characters that have a good central conception and gives them a pretty good cost break. I have found some problems; such as the speedster that wants to buy his Dex, Int, Con, Rec and Spd in the EC (which by the way I don't allow) using the justification that they all represent his Speedy metabolism.

 

My question is...What drawbacks should be inherent of the EC? I do use the Adjustment power drawback but the effectiveness is not doubled (because there is no base cost per se).

 

Personally, I like the way it works out and it can be used for my villains as well

 

I welcome your comments,

 

Deadman

[pinecone]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

I used that method myself for a long time and have much fondness for it...but I always aplied Drains/etc... against all the powers in the EC at once...after all the concept of the EC is that the list of powers is just one power...sort of a stated out VPP of sorts....

[TheEmerged]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

The biggest IMO is that you can't make MPA's (multiple power attacks) with different Elemental Control slots.

 

Another one requires work & judgement calls on the GM -- you should only allow slots in an EC that are part of a "tight set". Usually this isn't too hard, but it is something you should keep an eye on.

 

Personally I use an entirely different standard for what powers are allowed in what frameworks based on my own experience.

[Deadman]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

The biggest IMO is that you can't make MPA's (multiple power attacks) with different Elemental Control slots.

 

What normally ends up happening is the characters purchase most of their attacks in a Multipower or completely separate. They use the EC for constant powers like FF or Flight. I don't allow MPAs unless they are paid for separately such as one in an MP and another separate.

 

Another one requires work & judgement calls on the GM -- you should only allow slots in an EC that are part of a "tight set". Usually this isn't too hard' date=' but it is something you should keep an eye on.[/quote']

 

I always enforce this, but of course the players try to get all sorts of stuff by. I usually allow a max of two characteristics if that. Sorry Sundude your Fiery personality doesn't mean that you can buy PRE in the EC.

 

Personally I use an entirely different standard for what powers are allowed in what frameworks based on my own experience.

 

Such as?

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Deadman

[Dust Raven]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

Looks like a good way of doing things. I can't really critique it without fiddling with some constructs of my own though.

 

One thing I notice immediately though is that is has no point requirements for what goes into it. Technically you can by one large Power, and you'd still get a discount on really little ones you want to toss in. Since you can technically put of bunch of little Power into a large combined slot in an EC using the 5th Edition method, you's might be thought of as just a different math method for creating the same construct.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

My standard --

 

The following powers will NEVER be allowed in a power framework, even a VPP

• Duplication
  
• END Reserve (END or REC)
  
• Find Weakness
  
• Luck
  
• Multiform
  
• Skills
  

 

The following powers will only be allowed in a power framework under very specific cases with a Darn Good Reasonâ„¢

• Clairsentience
  
• Enhanced Senses
  
• Extra Dimensional Movement
  
• Extra Limbs
  
• FTL Travel
  
• Knockback Resistance
  
• Lack of Weakness
  
• Mind Link
  
• Talents
  
• Skill Levels (including Penalty and Combat Skill Levels).
  

 

The following powers might be acceptable in a Multipower or VPP under the right circumstances but will never be allowed in an Elemental Control

• Characteristics
  
• Flash Defense
  
• Life Support
  
• Mental Defense (technically covered under Characteristics, listed here as reminder)
  
• Missile Deflection/Reflection
  
• Power Defense
  

 

The following powers will be allowed in power frameworks but will be watched closely/require some limiting factor

• Armor (yes, even in an EC)
  
• Damage Reduction
  
• Damage Resistance (MUST be bought as a separate slot, not “tacked onâ€)
  
• Summon
  

 

Combined Slots

This is covered under the Thou Shalt Not protocol -- don't even think of sending me a writeup using these.

 

Movement Multipowers

In the past I have forbidden separate movement powers from being in different slots of a multipower, and openly stated that the ability to have the movement power you want is one of the reasons a VPP is more expensive. Quick everyone, how often do you need to use two different movement forms in the same phase?

 

At least for now, I am going to allow one significant exception to this rule. Please note that this will change if I find it abusive. The exception is this: I will allow characters to have two movement powers of the same type in a multipower, but only if one is a “normal†movement and the other is “megascale†movement.

 

For example, you still cannot have Flight in one slot and Tunnel in another. You could however have a normal Flight and a Megascale Flight.

 

editted for formatting issues

 

And before some asks about Armor in an EC -- notice the qualifier "require some limiting factor". There are times when a limited Armor from a power that gets weakened when the 'source' power is appropriate, so I allow it. However for the 'unusual' defenses I find this turns into "free points"

[Deadman]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

My standard --

 

The following powers will NEVER be allowed in a power framework, even a VPP

• Duplication
  
• END Reserve (END or REC)
  
• Find Weakness
  
• Luck
  
• Multiform
  
• Skills
  

I wholeheartedly agree with each.

 

The following powers will only be allowed in a power framework under very specific cases with a Darn Good Reasonâ„¢

• Clairsentience
  
• Enhanced Senses
  
• Extra Dimensional Movement
  
• Extra Limbs
  
• FTL Travel
  
• Knockback Resistance
  
• Lack of Weakness
  
• Mind Link
  
• Talents
  
• Skill Levels (including Penalty and Combat Skill Levels).
  

I would allow all of these as long as they really fit the conception.

 

The following powers might be acceptable in a Multipower or VPP under the right circumstances but will never be allowed in an Elemental Control

• Characteristics
  
• Flash Defense
  
• Life Support
  
• Mental Defense (technically covered under Characteristics, listed here as reminder)
  
• Missile Deflection/Reflection
  
• Power Defense
  

I generally allow all of these in as well. A prime example would be a character with an Invulnerability EC.

 

The following powers will be allowed in power frameworks but will be watched closely/require some limiting factor

• Armor (yes, even in an EC)
  
• Damage Reduction
  
• Damage Resistance (MUST be bought as a separate slot, not “tacked onâ€)
  
• Summon
  

All qualify under the conditions I stated previously.

 

I like your list, it is very concise and really has no room for misinterpretation. I always fall back on the GM's right to refuse anything he feels may be abusive.

 

Thanks for sharing,

 

Deadman

[zornwil]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

Deadman, I did it this way as well for many years. Only about 4 or so years ago when starting my current campaign here did I change. Like you, I am also very lenient - I don't want to overly repeat myself so I won't get into the details beyond saying the book's restriction on 0 END powers is too contrived in my view, it's a ban where you don't otherwise (at least mostly) see such in the book, it is opposed to SFX and ultimately arbitrary. Anyway, I think the only issue with the way you have it is the cost-savings depending on number of powers and such, but that's manageable. The good thing is it's eminently possible to add smaller costed powers that don't fit the framework cost, whereas ECs from 3rd on don't address that at all - which is a real shortcoming.

 

So speaking for myself, I think the old way of doing ECs was never really broken, but people even now object to the cost break of ECs, and my sense is that the abusability was too much for too many people. I only updated just to keep it easier on players to stay at least somewhat orthodox.

 

You may (or may not) be interested in a thread Doc Democracy and I did a lot of work in regarding unifying the frameworks as it bears on EC. It's semi-abandoned in that I've not done the work needed to study the impacts on existing CU characters, but I do intend to revisit - it's at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7876&highlight=Unified+Framework

[Dust Raven]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

Quick everyone' date=' how often do you need to use two different movement forms in the same phase?[/quote']More often than I've needed two attack powers in the same phase actually, but attack Multipowers are far more common than movement Multipowers. Would I be correct that you allow attack Multipowers? I'd actually be surprised if you didn't, though I wonder why you disallow ones for movement.

 

To actually answer your question, I have a character that moves kinda funny. He can alter gravity, which allows him to leap far, fall slow and at funny angles, and even fall up and sideways if he exherts himself enough. One of favorite maneuvers is to perform a Move By using Gliding (his fastest movement when going down). He often gained a surprise bonus from starting this attack from the ground: he's spend a half phase leaping into the air, slightly angled toward his target, then suddenly speed up as he kicked in his gliding (gaining velocity for going down and such). He's occasionally do the same with Flight, to leap into the air and "stick" there instead of all (since he didn't have enough Flight inches to get that high, he would leap).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

What normally ends up happening is the characters purchase most of their attacks in a Multipower or completely separate. They use the EC for constant powers like FF or Flight. I don't allow MPAs unless they are paid for separately such as one in an MP and another separate.

 

To me, this result actually argues in favour of lifting the "MPA on EC powers" ban. It may be appropriate in games where power frameworks are very restructed, but in more liberal games, such as most Champions games, the player is generally choosing between frameworks, not choosing whether to have a framework. If FireLad buys his EB, RKA and Heatstroke NND in an EC (paying, say, 90 powers to add the three to an existing 60 point EC), why shouldn't he have the advantage of MPA's over Sun Girl, who bought the same three attacks in a Multipower of Ultra slots for 78 points? Other than this advantage, what did the extra 12 points gain for FireLad? Make it 5 attacks and now we're talking 150 points vs 90, so what did those 60 points achieve? It's actually easier to drain away all of FireLad's attacks as well.

 

Make those Multi slots Standard rather than Ultra, and we get a cost of 96 (6 more than the EC) for 3, or 120 (30 less than the EC) for five attacks. The Multi character can now mix & match (eg. 10d6 EB + 2d6 Flash) where the EC character cannot.

 

Now, I realize it would cost Flame Boy 180 points to buy all three fire attacks separately (300 if it's five attacks), even more expensive than using any framework. But, with frameworks freely available, I expect they will be commonly used, and my experience with the game demonstrates this is pretty much correct. As long as the rules make attacks purchased through an EC no more, and perhaps even less, effective than those purchased through a Multipower, of course characters will use the more effective "Attack MP/Defense, Move and Misc" EC structure.

[Rapier]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

As long as the rules make attacks purchased through an EC no more' date=' and perhaps even less, effective than those purchased through a Multipower, of course characters will use the more effective "Attack MP/Defense, Move and Misc" EC structure.[/quote']

Is there actual value in that though?

 

Straight out power purchases (without frameworks) are REALLY expensive. However, they have the most versatility and have the added benefit of not-being-drained-like Frameworks.

 

ECs are more expensive than MPs, but you have more utility. You can use each and every one of those powers in the same phase.

 

MPs are the least expensive but the most restricted. Even if you have all multi slots (as opposed to ultra slots) you can still only use xx amount of active points. The vast majority of MPs are filled with ultra slots and can thus only use a single slot in any given phase.

 

By playing with the costs you skew this basic concept. If ECs become as cost effective as MPs why have MPs at all? I'm real leary to espouse any kind of cost structure change that would invalidate one of the fundamental frameworks of the system.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

I see more than one attack power in a phase fairly often now, under the 5th edition MPA rules.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

ECs are more expensive than MPs' date=' but you have more utility. You can use each and every one of those powers in the same phase.[/quote']

Unless of course they are attacks.

 

I've hated that rule since I first read and my immediate response was HELL NO!!. Of course, now I've thought about it, fully evaluated it in my mind and have calmly arrived at the logical decision of HELL NO!!!

 

MPA are fine in an EC, and help support the framework. There is absolutely no reason why character A can use his Flight, FF, TK and Fire his EB all simultaneously but character B cannot use his EB & Flash simo. It's an unfair rule that Steve should have thought about a bit more before including (no offense Mr. Long, it's just one of my issues).

[Rapier]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

Unless of course they are attacks.

Yeah. MPAs are tricky. There is quite a bit of controversy there. I can also see how they could get very, very common. We don't use them very often, but I've been considering doing some kind of increased END cost houserule.

 

For most characters the END cost is so prohibitive that they can't afford to do more than one or possibly two per session. Most of our characters are designed to have enough END to last a full turn (and usually not much more).

 

Maybe the highest AP is the primary attack and all secondary attack is x2 END or something. Like I said, I'm still considering.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Element Control Tweaking

 

Unless of course they are attacks.

 

Exactly! If I have an EC of five powers, let's say Flight, Force Field, EB, Damage Aura and Change Environment, I can use them all at once. Far more utility than an MP, and thus justifiably more expensive.

 

However, if my "EC" is five attacks, say EB, RKA, Flash, Entangle and Drain at Range, I can only use one each pahse, and I pay 3x their AP cost (180 for 5 60 point powers). A Multipower of 5 Ultras would have EXACTLY the same game effects - I can use one of the five powers in each phase - and cost 90, only half as much. And an opponent draining my EB doesn't get my other four attacks as well!

 

If I pay 120 (still a 1/3 discount), I can mix & match - for example, fire a half strength Flash and a half strength Drain as an MPA, something the still considerably more expensive EC can't do.

 

When I first read MPA in 5e, I thought "Finally - a reason to buy mutliple attacks in an EC instead of a Multipower". Then I read the restriction

 

Let's say it again, for clarity - An EC of all attacks is MORE expensive and has EQUAL OR LESS utility than a Multipower of the same attacks. To me, this is the wrong result, and allowing EC powers to be used in MPA's redresses the situation.