D & D Diatribe

[Lupus]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

Um... except when multiclassing' date=' you don't restart the XP chart.[/quote']

Note: Talking about 3e D&D, here. You were talking about d20 stuff... they use the same XP progression/multiclassing rules in all the d20 stuff I've read. Although it's possible that the d20 books you've read have different multiclassing rules.

[badger3k]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

No - you'll always be the same number of *experience points* behind. In D20 that works out to levels behind' date=' since all levels cost the same (a smart change in my opinon), but in every other D&D variant, you'll end up one level behind because of the cheapness of lower levels.[/quote']

 

What do you mean? Unless you go beyond certain restrictions in levels, you don't suffer a penalty to experience to multiclass. Your character level remains the same even though your class level in one class might be lower than a single-classed characters. Our group had several characters who multiclassed and remained the same in Exp (and Character Level), while their Class Levels were something like 6/5/2 (multi+prestige), 12/2 (prestige), and 9/4 (straight multiclass) (to give three examples).

 

The other question - when you say the levels cost the same, do you mean that there is no difference between the classes (as in old AD&D)?

 

Just trying to clarify what you are talking about.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

ahhhh..is 3rd ed as munkinable as it sounds???

[badger3k]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

ahhhh..is 3rd ed as munkinable as it sounds???

 

Very much so (although to be fair, I haven't met a game that couldn't be munchkinned - even changed my sig to the same as my WOTC sig to reflect that).

[Curufea]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

One of my friends, who is a devout DandDophile, even made a character to prove it - he multiclassed to 1st level in as many classes as he could. It creates a monster.

[badger3k]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

One of my friends' date=' who is a devout DandDophile, even made a character to prove it - he multiclassed to 1st level in as many classes as he could. It creates a monster.[/quote']

 

Has he tried the Gestalt option? I can't find the old "optimization" forum on the site, but I remember hearing some rather "powerful" builds with that (moreso than normal, that is).

[tracer]

ahhhh..is 3rd ed as munkinable as it sounds???

Well, consider this:

 

In the D&D 3rd Edition Epic Level Handbook, there are tables for rolling up random epic magic weapons and epic magic armor. Although the rules state that there's no specific "treasure type" or "combined hoard" you can find that'll have one of these randomly-rolled epic magic items in it, the tables still exist.

 

At the end of both of these tables, there is an entry for "roll again adding +10 to the result." This entry can be rolled over and over again. There is no upper limit to how high the "plus" on an epic magic weapon or a suit of epic magic armor can become. You can theoretically have a +infinity longsword or a +infinity shield.

 

Of course, the question arises of what happens when an infinite Attack Bonus meets an infinite Armor Class....

[Lupus]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

Hey, I heard that in Fantasy Hero, you can make characters who can move planets around, sling spells like Gandalf and fight better than anyone else on the planet, ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

 

What a broken, munchkin, twink system!

 

(The point is: any system can be twinked out. It's up to the GM.)

[Markdoc]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

The other question - when you say the levels cost the same, do you mean that there is no difference between the classes (as in old AD&D)?

 

Just trying to clarify what you are talking about.

 

Yes - 3rd Ed. D&D or d20 (same thing) levels for all classes cost the same and you multiclass by levels: so if you pick up levels in other classes, you'll always be that number of levels behind (though as noted, it's usually worth it to to take one or two levels (but no more) of something else before becoming an arcane spellcaster. In every other variant of D&D, however, the difference in experience points required per level means that multiclassed or two-classed characters inevitably end up 1 level behind single-classed characters.

 

Not that this is terribly relevant for a Hero board, except as an example of broken system design.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

Hey, I heard that in Fantasy Hero, you can make characters who can move planets around, sling spells like Gandalf and fight better than anyone else on the planet, ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

 

What a broken, munchkin, twink system!

 

(The point is: any system can be twinked out. It's up to the GM.)

 

To some extent that's true - however, to me, using the excuse that with a little work you can wreck any system to excuse a system with gaping holes *built in* simply excuses poor design.

 

As noted, I play (and enjoy) d20 - but that doesn't prevent me (or vice versa) from recognizing that the designers emphasised production values over game design.

 

cheers, Mark

[Curufea]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

"throw spells like Gandalf"

 

You obviously have never read Dork Tower...

 

Gandalf's powers extend to "Affect Normal Fire" and "Continual Light" and that's about it. However - he does have decent combat skills.

[Lupus]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

"throw spells like Gandalf"

 

You obviously have never read Dork Tower...

 

Gandalf's powers extend to "Affect Normal Fire" and "Continual Light" and that's about it. However - he does have decent combat skills.

He does a lot more than that. Killing a handful of goblins with a single lightning-based spell, for one.

 

But I'm not about to get into this old argument. I chose Gandalf over Elminster 'cause I hate Elminster. It was intended as light rhetoric, that's all.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

Hey, I heard that in Fantasy Hero, you can make characters who can move planets around, sling spells like Gandalf and fight better than anyone else on the planet, ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

 

 

 

All right, it's Incompetent Normal PCs for you, from here on!

[Rapier]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

Hey, I heard that in Fantasy Hero, you can make characters who can move planets around, sling spells like Gandalf and fight better than anyone else on the planet, ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

 

What a broken, munchkin, twink system!

 

(The point is: any system can be twinked out. It's up to the GM.)

Well except the analogy sort of breaks down unless you get rid of levels and XP and just let the characters pick what levels they want to be.

[Brother Jim]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

Well except the analogy sort of breaks down unless you get rid of levels and XP and just let the characters pick what levels they want to be.

 

coool !!!!! i'll play a character with 30 levels in ALL classes that's a four armed yaun-ti abomination (snake headed) with the following templates: half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestial, feral and creature of legend.

 

when do we start play ??????

note: i don't own the psionics, ultimate evil or ultimate good books. so the character won't have any of those classes...........sorry.

 

 

 

PS: this is a Ludicrous level sarcasm alert !!!!!!!!

[Rapier]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

coool !!!!! i'll play a character with 30 levels in ALL classes that's a four armed yaun-ti abomination (snake headed) with the following templates: half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestial, feral and creature of legend.

 

when do we start play ??????

note: i don't own the psionics, ultimate evil or ultimate good books. so the character won't have any of those classes...........sorry.

 

 

 

PS: this is a Ludicrous level sarcasm alert !!!!!!!!

Um. Try rereading the post. A little comprehension goes a long way.

[Lupus]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

Well except the analogy sort of breaks down unless you get rid of levels and XP and just let the characters pick what levels they want to be.

The point is, you CAN have powerful characters in D&D, you CAN have powerful characters in Hero. You CAN have a level 20 fighter/level 20 wizard in D&D, you CAN have a 500-point wizard with CSLs in Hero. You CAN have a +1 million item in D&D, you CAN have a 100d6AP PEN sword in Hero.

 

Is this a problem? Hell no. The GM's the final arbiter. If the GM says 'you start this game at level 1, with no gestalting' then that's it. Same as the GM saying 'we're starting this game at 75/75.'

 

And that's all that matters.

 

(And now I wanna have a 100d6 AP PEN sword in Hero. Dammit.)

[Curufea]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

However, Munchinism is actually the least significant point of my dislike of D&D. See previous posts.

[Brother Jim]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

comprehension.......shmension...it's over-rated i say!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what ???????!!????!!?????,??????,????!!

 

there was a sarcasm alert at the bottom of the post in RED!!!

[starblaze]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

"throw spells like Gandalf"

 

You obviously have never read Dork Tower...

 

Gandalf's powers extend to "Affect Normal Fire" and "Continual Light" and that's about it. However - he does have decent combat skills.

 

A friend of mine that I play with believes that Gandalf is actually a 8-9 level Paladin with a level of Sorceror.

[GamePhil]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

There was an old Dragon article that placed Gandalf (if I remember correctly) as a medium to high level Fighter, a mid-level Druid, and a low-level Magic-User.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled D&D bash.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

By 3rd edition rules, Gandalf is a high HD Outsider who doesn't use most of his powers. Plain and simple, he doesn't follow the standard class rules, and he's a being from another plane.

[Curufea]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

So, what are the Hobbits then? And Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir?

 

Is Galadriel an "outsider" too? Or is she less powerful than Gandalf in D20?

[badger3k]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

So, what are the Hobbits then? And Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir?

 

Is Galadriel an "outsider" too? Or is she less powerful than Gandalf in D20?

 

Hobbits taste like Chicken.

 

Seriously, though I am not familiar with the d20 LOTR, I would guess the others are normal, and Galadriel was merely a powerful Elf. Remember that Gandalf was an Istari, one of the semi-divine beings. I always thought that they were more powerful than the other beings, even elves, although perhaps in their own areas (such as Galadriel in her homeland) the elves might have more power.

 

Just going on memory and guesses here.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: D & D Diatribe

 

The Istari are the names of the five Maiar who came from the West in the guise of old men. The Maiar are lesser powers, demigods at best, compared to the Valar. One of the Maiar married the High King of the Elves of Middle Earth in the First Age, and they had a child, Luthien.

 

As for the Elves, Tolkien's Elves aren't the same as D&D Elves and in some ways could also be treated as a lesser race of Outsiders. They're immortal beings whose home "plane" as it were was Valinor. Slain Elves go to the Halls of the Dead but they can be brought back if the Valar think there is merit to it.

 

Glorfindel, who in the books was the one who brought Frodo to Rivendale, actually was slain in the First Age fighting a Balrog (which I believe he managed to take out in the process). He came back with the Istari from the West.