Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

[Hyper-Man]

Hi guys, I am revisiting a subject covered in an older thread:

Limitation rating question

 

In that thread Evilgod asked:

 

Hey' date=' if someone wanted to have a limitation on Telekinesis that it was used only to hold a really huge thing structurely together when superhuman strength picks it up, what limitation rating would you give it (i.e. when the Gladiator picked up the Baxtor Building in the Fantastic 4 comic)?[/quote'] And Dust Raven suggested:

 

Things like these are covered in the Champions book.

 

Basically, it's part of the superheroic genre. There's no special power needed, it's just the physics of a superhero world (like Knockback).

 

If you want the physics of your world to be more "realistic" but this character somehow defies them, there had better be a good reason, and you could buy a Power for that (in this case, TK No Range (-1/2), Only To Keep Objects From Falling Apart When Pickup (-1 or -1 1/2)

I was really hoping that this example would be addressed in The Ultimate Brick. Realistic lifting and its effects on objects is mentioned but skill in the application of STR is the only suggested workaround. Area Of Effect on STR is even mentioned for lifting porous materials like sand and water but I could not find where the book mentions using it with regards to lifting otherwise solid objects.

 

I know that TK is a valid way to construct the power but it has a very high active cost associated (for an otherwise minor benefit) and I was looking for an Advantage on STR instead.

 

Telekinesis 66 STR [99 active] No Range (-1/2) Only To Keep Objects From Falling Apart When Lifted (-1 1/2) [33 Real Points]

How does this look for a Naked Power Advantage on STR to accomplish the same thing?

 

Structural Integrity (+1/2) Allows a character to apply STR to whole object similarly to Telekinesis only for lifting purposes (like lifting a car from the front bumper without it falling apart, etc..)

When applied to a character with a 65 STR it would cost the same real as well as active points (33) unlike the Telekinesis example above.

 

Opinions and suggestions welcomed,

HM

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I'm with Dust Raven that it's just a matter of Superhero Physics. The world works that way because the world works that way. It's the same principle as the Clark Kent Secret Identity. It's a Convention of the Genre ... one of the little rules that, even though it doesn't necessarily make sense, is simply accepted as factual because the genre demands it. In games where the universe doesn't work like that, it probably shouldn't be possible for one character to have the ability to hold the building up without it crumbling while nobody else can (unless he really is using TK).

 

(My personal favorite is the rule in anime that says 'Villains can't attack heroes while they're posing/transforming/powering up, a la Sailor Moon'.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

It's superhero physics. There's even a section in Champions that mentions it IIRC.

 

Now if a character wanted to pull that off in a campaign not based on superheroic physics either TK or AoE bought as a NPA for STR would both be appropriate.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

If you don't want to do it as a gere bit, a +1/4 naked advantage seems fair to me; +1/2 could get you some serious combat applications (AP, Pen, EXP, AOE:1H), while this just lets you pull off an impressive trick. It's a trick with combat applications of its own (Pick up building and use as huge AOE for STR), but those effects are just not much more than you'd get by default in most Champions games.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

It's superhero physics. There's even a section in Champions that mentions it IIRC.

 

Now if a character wanted to pull that off in a campaign not based on superheroic physics either TK or AoE bought as a NPA for STR would both be appropriate.

Thanks for the response everyone.

 

If bought as AOE on STR what limitation value would you suggest if the ability could NOT be used to attack multiple targets necessarily?

 

I appreciate the superhero physics angle but the Fantastic Four comic in question* uses this No-Range-Telekinesis/AOE-STR as a key element in the story of how the FF is able to defeat Gladiator (who is basically one of 2 Superman clones in the Marvel Universe. Hyperion is the other) Reed Richards deducts that Gladiator's powers are more than just brute strength by his ability to lift and tilt the Baxter Building off of its foundations by an angle that should have easily caused it to collapse EVEN when considering all the structural improvements that he had made to building as headquarters for the FF. Back when the story came out Marvel was the more gritty and semi-realistic universe when compared to the either pre/mid -Crises DC one.

 

*Things Gladiator did during this story:

Throws a car at The Thing by lifting it by the bumper without damaging it. The Thing catches it but leaves very obvious crush marks where he grips it. Gladiator also punches The Thing so hard that he crashes through about a dozen cars. The combination of all the little extras in the story plus the fact that Gladiator was NOT defined as being more powerful than Thor seems to support the idea that his abilites were not just special effects but in fact out right extra powers above and beyond his already tremendous strength.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

If you don't want to do it as a gere bit' date=' a +1/4 naked advantage seems fair to me; +1/2 could get you some serious combat applications (AP, Pen, EXP, AOE:1H), while this just lets you pull off an impressive trick. It's a trick with combat applications of its own (Pick up building and use as huge AOE for STR), but those effects are just not much more than you'd get by default in most Champions games.[/quote']

You already answered my question!

 

I basically want this for a brick whose powers stand out a little from other bricks.

 

HM

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

On that note, you might want to check out the Hoist skill in the Ultimate Brick.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

*Things Gladiator did during this story:

Throws a car at The Thing by lifting it by the bumper without damaging it. The Thing catches it but leaves very obvious crush marks where he grips it. Gladiator also punches The Thing so hard that he crashes through about a dozen cars. The combination of all the little extras in the story plus the fact that Gladiator was NOT defined as being more powerful than Thor seems to support the idea that his abilites were not just special effects but in fact out right extra powers above and beyond his already tremendous strength.

 

HM

 

I remember reading that story when I was a teen. Did it get reprinted, or has it just stuck with you all these years?

 

IIRC, his powers turned out to have the limit "Do not function if doubts self". I'd say that would be a -1/4 and require a foe to manage a +30 or so PRE attack to inflict.

 

A Gladiator type character would alo be a good candidate for mega-KB and Mega-Throwing on his STR, with GM's approval. As KS pointed out, a good Hoist skill is also an option.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Yeah, Gladiator was all EGO based.

 

In one comic I vaguely remember Cannonball beat him because Cannonball was almost invulnerable while "blasting", and when he shrugged off a hit from Gladiator, El Mohawk lost confidence and his abilities started fading off.

 

I think they call it "tactile TK" in DC-land.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I remember reading that story when I was a teen. Did it get reprinted, or has it just stuck with you all these years?

-snip-

Stuck with me for 2 reasons really. One, over half of my comic collection is old DC and close to half of that is Superman related. I also collected nearly all of the John Byrne run and went back to get that particular issue of FF because of him. The contact TK was mentioned early in his run on Superman but seems to have disapeared as of late (I am not a regular collector any more). And secondly, I re-bagged and boarded my entire 22 long box collection this past summer and did a little reading as well.

 

HM

[McCoy]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Thanks for the response everyone.

 

If bought as AOE on STR what limitation value would you suggest if the ability could NOT be used to attack multiple targets necessarily?

 

I appreciate the superhero physics angle but the Fantastic Four comic in question* uses this No-Range-Telekinesis/AOE-STR as a key element in the story of how the FF is able to defeat Gladiator (who is basically one of 2 Superman clones in the Marvel Universe. Hyperion is the other) Reed Richards deducts that Gladiator's powers are more than just brute strength by his ability to lift and tilt the Baxter Building off of its foundations by an angle that should have easily caused it to collapse EVEN when considering all the structural improvements that he had made to building as headquarters for the FF. Back when the story came out Marvel was the more gritty and semi-realistic universe when compared to the either pre/mid -Crises DC one.

 

*Things Gladiator did during this story:

Throws a car at The Thing by lifting it by the bumper without damaging it. The Thing catches it but leaves very obvious crush marks where he grips it. Gladiator also punches The Thing so hard that he crashes through about a dozen cars. The combination of all the little extras in the story plus the fact that Gladiator was NOT defined as being more powerful than Thor seems to support the idea that his abilites were not just special effects but in fact out right extra powers above and beyond his already tremendous strength.

 

HM

But remember the meta-story. This was during Byrne's tenure on FF, and he had been having a running argument with Someone at DC for months in the letter column of The Comic Reader (or was it Comic Buyers Guide, it's been a lloonngg time). Byrne's position was that Superman's powers were psionic, ie, supervision & superhearing are not restricted to speed of light/sound. So in the FF story, Reed had to be able to clearly show that Gladiator's powers could only be psionic.

 

(The other thing I remember about that letter feud was when Byrn made a reference to Kryptonite radiation being harmless to humans, and adding a note to the effect that that was what they use to say about saccharine and red dye #7 too.)

 

[added in edit] If you have to add it as an advantage on STR, just go with +0. I would say genre convention. Or better building codes. Maybe in a reality where people can pick up buildings, they are built with that possibility in mind.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Anyone seen the Godlike RPG? Extremely interesting reading, and highly recommended. Very different setting and approach from Champions, but it specifically covers the 'unnatural physics' aspect when building strength. Basically real world physics applies unless you pay for it not to.

 

I think that being able to lift a huge structure or item using strength shoudn't be the default position (strength is already far more useful than TK) no matter what the book might suggest. In fact we don't need to worry about massive structures like skyscrapers: even if you had strength to spare, you'd have a job lifting a tank unless you also had flight, as you'd have to get under the centre of mass, and you'd never be able to lift anything much bigger than a tank anyway as whatever you took hold of wouldn't have the structural integrity to support the whole mass. You could push things over or flip them, tear into them and do damage, but you just could not apply 'normal' strength, no matter how extreme, to a whole (large) object.

 

You could do it with a +1/4 advantage (no more than that I'd have thought) Then, of course, you have the question of how you turn it off: if you want to rip off just the bumper of the car and hit someone with it you'd need to use both hands to apply pressure in opposite directions, or the whole vehicle would come with it...you have to use your advantages whenever the 'base power' is used, and in proportion to the base power.

 

So, perhaps what we need is a custom adder for strength, say 10 points 'strength can be applied to the entire object'. You don't have to use adders, so you don't have to use it when you are ripping off that bumper, and it seems like a better solution than the advantage. The break-even point would be at 40STR (against the advantage), and if you had less strength than that you probably wouldn't need it anyway.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Anyone seen the Godlike RPG? Extremely interesting reading' date=' and highly recommended...[/quote']I did a double-take when I first read this post, TRL. I saw Godzilla RPG

[OddHat]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I did a double-take when I first read this post' date=' TRL. I saw Godzilla RPG [/quote']

 

I've run that, using Hero, more than once.

 

Really.

 

Strange good fun.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I did a double-take when I first read this post' date=' TRL. I saw Godzilla RPG [/quote']

 

Highly appropriate for picking up buildings, I suppose

[Lupus]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I'd also go with the free effect, or +1/4 naked advantage, as genre dictated. Then a limitation of power depending on confidence.

 

My reasoning is that what he does could be done by any other brick (in some genres), or most of what he does could be done in other, just as easy, ways (in more 'realistic' genres). So if you're running pure Silver Age, no advantage. More modern stuff, +1/4.

 

The thing of picking up the car by the bumper - that's pretty much special effects. Doesn't need a power advantage. Someone with a different kind of power would just pick the car up with a more secure hold and throw it anyway. In-game advantage is zero, therefore no power modifier.

 

Holding up the Baxter building is the one where Silver Age and modern campaigns will differ. In my game, I'd call it +1/4, but other games may vary.

 

Cf Superman holding up oil tankers all by his lonesome. I think that's one reason why Byrne wanted to redefine Superman's powers as psionic - he wanted a more 'realistic' Superman. (Personally, I think the revamp sucked. He can do that because he's Superman. He needs no other explanation. Solar-powered, my arse.)

 

I think buying telekinesis as a separate power is definitely overkill. I always have to remind myself: don't by powers that simulate HOW it works, buy powers to simulate the EFFECTS.

 

And in this case, I don't believe the effects are worth more than a +1/4.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

.

 

The thing of picking up the car by the bumper - that's pretty much special effects. Doesn't need a power advantage. Someone with a different kind of power would just pick the car up with a more secure hold and throw it anyway. In-game advantage is zero, therefore no power modifier.

 

I'd say there is an in-game advantage to being able to pick up a car by the bumper, rather than having to find a nice secure bit of chassis that isn't going to fall apart: the latter would probably take at least an extra half phase, possibly more, and if you are applying leverage principles, picking up a car with strength would actually require you to crawl under it: got to be at least an extra full phase.

 

I agree a different kind of power could pick it up more easily, and I'm thinking here of telekinesis, but there the power definition (no reactive force, can efffect whole object) overcomes the objections of structural integrity and leverage, which I am fine with: strength costs very little for what it does and I'm not inclined to give it any more advantages for free than I have to.

 

I wouldn't mind a +1/4 advantage (why would it need to be 'naked: it is an advantage to strength, isn't it?) or, (my favourite) a 10 point adder for strength, or possibly even better, 2 five point adders for strength:

 

Adder (5 points): can ignore leverage effects

Adder (5 points): strength can effect the object as a whole

 

That way there is a real difference between two characters both with 60 strength, if one has the adders and the other doesn't: whilst they can both technically lift the same weight, the one with the adders can apply the strength far more readily. Superman just bought the adders.

 

A high strength character with flight can often ignore the problems of leveage as it is easier to get in line with he centre of mass, but would still need the 'object as a whole' adder to heft truly massive objects, like battleships.

[casualplayer]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Being the cruel, exacting GM that I am I don't let my players reference character sheets during the game (too distracting.) My main brick doesn't know what his STR is because he has never found anything heavy enough and durable enough to cause him to strain to lift it. In my game he can knock over a skyscraper but not lift one. It's one of the ways I have smoothed out STR being too cheap by enforcing leverage and structural integrity restrictions.

 

That doesn't mean I am anal about it. I let him palm cars and such. I also have played in and enjoyed games where bricks can lift ships and push planets, without things falling apart. It's just a decision that is made when the game is started and as long as it's consistently enforced it's all good. Certainly shouldn't cost points or be worth a disadvantage (Subject to Real World Physics- 25 pts?)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Being the cruel, exacting GM that I am I don't let my players reference character sheets during the game (too distracting.) My main brick doesn't know what his STR is because he has never found anything heavy enough and durable enough to cause him to strain to lift it. In my game he can knock over a skyscraper but not lift one. It's one of the ways I have smoothed out STR being too cheap by enforcing leverage and structural integrity restrictions.

 

That doesn't mean I am anal about it. I let him palm cars and such. I also have played in and enjoyed games where bricks can lift ships and push planets, without things falling apart. It's just a decision that is made when the game is started and as long as it's consistently enforced it's all good. Certainly shouldn't cost points or be worth a disadvantage (Subject to Real World Physics- 25 pts?)

 

If you apply real world physics to strength in game then surely you should be able to pay to circumvent RWP? I agree that you wouldn't get a disadvantage for much the same reason 'Has to breathe' doesn't net you points. Equally if the ground rule for the campaign is that RWP doesn't apply, shouldn't you get something back by way of points if it does apply to you? Not being able to apply your full strength except when punching has to be worth something. I am being anal about it.

[Agent X]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

What is the point of using Real World Physics when you won't be able to because the character's strength means that the character intrinsically is not part of Real World Physics?

 

Are you going to force Superbrick to fly backwards from the impact of his mighty fists everytime he hits somebody?

 

Are you going to force Superbrick to do untold damage every time he springs up a mile in the air?

 

I don't get the point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

The point, oh Agent of X is that if you are applying a limitation to a power or characteristic then you are entitled to some sort of cost break for it.

 

I'm not suggesting that the 'right' approach is to require someone to get under the centre of mass of a large object to lift it, nor am I suggesting that the 'right' approach is you shouldn't be able to pick up and throw a car by grabbing the bumper. How you want to do it in your game is up to you. Personally I like the idea of defaulting to some version of RWP (Real World Physics).

 

What I am saying is that if that is your default position in your game and a player wants a more 'realistic' type of strength that isn't as flexible and useful then it should be worth a small limitation. Equally if you do apply RWP in your game then you should, on the spending of points, be able to ignore RWP.

 

To be absolutely clear, when I say RWP, I mean your game version of RWP, otherwise we would be playing physics and not HERO.

 

This really isn't a deep idea: less useful = less points, more useful = more points.

[Agent X]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

The point, oh Agent of X is that if you are applying a limitation to a power or characteristic then you are entitled to some sort of cost break for it.

 

I'm not suggesting that the 'right' approach is to require someone to get under the centre of mass of a large object to lift it, nor am I suggesting that the 'right' approach is you shouldn't be able to pick up and throw a car by grabbing the bumper. How you want to do it in your game is up to you. Personally I like the idea of defaulting to some version of RWP (Real World Physics).

 

What I am saying is that if that is your default position in your game and a player wants a more 'realistic' type of strength that isn't as flexible and useful then it should be worth a small limitation. Equally if you do apply RWP in your game then you should, on the spending of points, be able to ignore RWP.

 

To be absolutely clear, when I say RWP, I mean your game version of RWP, otherwise we would be playing physics and not HERO.

 

This really isn't a deep idea: less useful = less points, more useful = more points.

Why shouldn't energy blasts be required to buy advantages to avoid Real World Physics?

 

I think this is a slippery slope that leads to an overly complicated set of rules unless you are very clear about the behavior of your Pseudo Real World Physics to your players.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Why shouldn't energy blasts be required to buy advantages to avoid Real World Physics?

 

I think this is a slippery slope that leads to an overly complicated set of rules unless you are very clear about the behavior of your Pseudo Real World Physics to your players.

I'd say that if you were inclined to toss such into a superheroic game, that it looks better (to me) as a limitation, rather than as the default.

 

Wondering what most powers with the RWP limitation would be like.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I feel happier applying niggardly problems like this to strength given its already astonishing utility for its cost, but it is all a matter of approach. Obviously you can't really apply RWP to superhero games, and to do so would be silly, but making it slightly more difficult for a brick to convert his strength into an area effect ranged attack FOR FREE by throwing vehicles doesn't seem at all inappropriate to me, but rather a perfectly valid and realistic way to limit the power.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

If you end up with a GM who thinks he wants to have objects break under their own weight, then just do this:

 

10 pts PD, Usable By Others (+1/4), only for granting PD to objects for lifting (-1) Total cost: 6 points

 

That way, the building that would require an 80 Str (16D6 from its own weight) to lift, that only has an 8 PD, now has an 18 PD for lifting purposes. Thus, it doesn't break. Much cheaper than putting an advantage on your strength.