Combat Luck variant

[Fitz]

I've been toying with this for a long time now -- five minutes, easy. My thought is to use Combat Luck like anti-damage dice; rather than buying what amounts to invisible armour, one would buy Combat Luck dice which subtract from the damage inflicted by an attack. Effectively, I guess what I'm talking about is a sort of variable Damage Resistance combined with variable Knockback Resistance.

 

That is, if you have any dice of Combat Luck, you'd roll them and count the BODY as if for a normal attack, subtracting 2 from the damage taken for each six showing, 0 for each 1, and one point each for 2-5. The total showing is subtracted from the STUN inflicted. You'd also roll for KB as usual, with the result subtracting from any KB done by the original attack.

 

As far as pricing goes, I haven't really thought that far but I'd say about 3pts per d6 might be in the ball park.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

Hi Fitz: Kinda cute. The only problem might be rolling dice on offense and defense could get cumbersome. Might end up like the old White Wolf or Shadowrun. Roll your hit, roll your dodge, roll your damage, roll your soak, etc.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

It's "worth" 2 points per die. It is also nothing like combat luck, since it doesn't stop BODY, which is the actual point of combat luck.

[Fitz]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

It is also nothing like combat luck' date=' since it doesn't stop BODY, which is the actual point of combat luck.[/quote']

 

Huh? OK, one of us is confused -- what do you mean "doesn't stop BODY"?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

I've been toying with this for a long time now -- five minutes, easy. My thought is to use Combat Luck like anti-damage dice; rather than buying what amounts to invisible armour, one would buy Combat Luck dice which subtract from the damage inflicted by an attack. Effectively, I guess what I'm talking about is a sort of variable Damage Resistance combined with variable Knockback Resistance.

 

That is, if you have any dice of Combat Luck, you'd roll them and count the BODY as if for a normal attack, subtracting 2 from the damage taken for each six showing, 0 for each 1, and one point each for 2-5. The total showing is subtracted from the STUN inflicted. You'd also roll for KB as usual, with the result subtracting from any KB done by the original attack.

 

As far as pricing goes, I haven't really thought that far but I'd say about 3pts per d6 might be in the ball park.

Why not just roll them as regular damage dice and subtract the result directly from the damage dice? Example: White Tiger has 5d6 of Combat Luck. He gets hit for 12d6 by Strong Dude for an average roll of 42 Stun and 12 BODY. White Tiger rolls his 5d6 Combat Luck, with a result of 17 Stun and 5 Body. He then subtracts any other defenses and then subtracts 17 Stun and 5 BODY from whatever gets through his regular defenses (PD, Armor, FF, whatever).

 

I'd say 2 points per die is about right. 3 points and you might as well just buy more PD or ED.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

Why not just roll them as regular damage dice and subtract the result directly from the damage dice? Example: White Tiger has 5d6 of Combat Luck. He gets hit for 12d6 by Strong Dude for an average roll of 42 Stun and 12 BODY. White Tiger rolls his 5d6 Combat Luck, with a result of 17 Stun and 5 Body. He then subtracts any other defenses and then subtracts 17 Stun and 5 BODY from whatever gets through his regular defenses (PD, Armor, FF, whatever).

 

I'd say 2 points per die is about right. 3 points and you might as well just buy more PD or ED.

 

I'd say 3 points per die and it affects either PD OR ED attacks. You're going to average 3.5 per die reduction to STUN, and 1 reduction to BOD, after all.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

I've been thinking about the cost of the "anti-damage" thing, and I've been comparing it to Absorption or Healing. I try to build new things using existing Powers first to get an idea of how much they cost, and whether or not I actually need something new.

 

I could see it being bought as Simplified Healing, with a Trigger (getting hit) and having the dice just negate an equal amount of damage that's applied to the character. The only downside is that the character would still take the damage (meaning that any secondary effects would still apply and affect the character, even if the damage goes away).

 

The thing is, if bought this way, it's gonna cost about 12.5 points per die, and you'd be better off just buying Defenses.

 

Personally, I'd buy Armor in increments of 6 (18 Active), and put a Limitation "Random Effect" at -1 and "Limited Effect Against BODY" -1/2 (real cost 7.2 per die).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

I'd say 3 points per die and it affects either PD OR ED attacks. You're going to average 3.5 per die reduction to STUN' date=' and 1 reduction to BOD, after all.[/quote']I took that into account. But it's not as good as regular PD or ED; and unlike the standard form of Combat Luck it's not even Resistant or Hardened.

 

I figured the random effectiveness of this defense is worth at least a -½ Limitation. And 3.5/1.5 = 2.3; rounded down to 2. It's just not worth 3 points IMO, and it's probably arguable if it's worth 2.

[Frenchman]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

I could see it being bought as Simplified Healing, with a Trigger (getting hit) and having the dice just negate an equal amount of damage that's applied to the character. The only downside is that the character would still take the damage (meaning that any secondary effects would still apply and affect the character, even if the damage goes away).

 

The thing is, if bought this way, it's gonna cost about 12.5 points per die, and you'd be better off just buying Defenses.

This is a good approach to constructing this, in my opinion, and it wouldn't cost 12.5 points per die, either. Thats just the active cost. This would most definitly have limitations applied to it, such as Self Only (-1/2), Only in response to being hit (-1?), and Restrainable (-1/2). That drops the cost down to about 4 points per die. If you slap Zero END on it, it's about 5.8 per die.

Instead of reduced end, I like the idea of putting charges on it (8 charges is a -0, if I recall correctly) and/or requires a luck roll.

I like this better than assigning a semi-arbitrary point value to this and creating a new power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

This is a good approach to constructing this, in my opinion, and it wouldn't cost 12.5 points per die, either. Thats just the active cost. This would most definitly have limitations applied to it, such as Self Only (-1/2), Only in response to being hit (-1?), and Restrainable (-1/2). That drops the cost down to about 4 points per die. If you slap Zero END on it, it's about 5.8 per die.

Instead of reduced end, I like the idea of putting charges on it (8 charges is a -0, if I recall correctly) and/or requires a luck roll.

I like this better than assigning a semi-arbitrary point value to this and creating a new power.

I don't think you have have a Limitation that effectively says "only when the trigger is triggered". Trigger should already do that. I also doubt that this power is restrainable, though if you are simulating Luck, you might have it "require a Luck roll" or something similar.

[Nevenall]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

I took that into account. But it's not as good as regular PD or ED; and unlike the standard form of Combat Luck it's not even Resistant or Hardened.

 

I figured the random effectiveness of this defense is worth at least a -½ Limitation. And 3.5/1.5 = 2.3; rounded down to 2. It's just not worth 3 points IMO, and it's probably arguable if it's worth 2.

 

It might be worth 2 or 3 points if it affected all kinds of damage like NND, AVLD, and Penetrating.

It seems to me that, built as a limited Healing power, it would become a defense against anything.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

It might be worth 2 or 3 points if it affected all kinds of damage like NND, AVLD, and Penetrating.

It seems to me that, built as a limited Healing power, it would become a defense against anything.

But built as a Limited variant of Healing it cannot prevent the character from being Stunned if he's hit hard enough. That largely defeats the entire purpose of using Combat Luck for lightly defended characters. And since standard Combat Luck doesn't protect against NND or AVLD then it seems reasonable to assume this version wouldn't either. And if we just want to protect against being Stunned or KO'd then it would be simpler to simply buy extra CON to accomplish the same thing without all the other shenanigans.

[Nevenall]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

But built as a Limited variant of Healing it cannot prevent the character from being Stunned if he's hit hard enough. That largely defeats the entire purpose of using Combat Luck for lightly defended characters. And since standard Combat Luck doesn't protect against NND or AVLD then it seems reasonable to assume this version wouldn't either. And if we just want to protect against being Stunned or KO'd then it would be simpler to simply buy extra CON to accomplish the same thing without all the other shenanigans.

 

Or buy 25% damage reduction with a luck special effect.

 

My thinking was based upon making the limited healing a real defense based upon its special effect. Meaning that the character would never actually "take" the prevented damage and protecting the character from being stunned and such.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

Or buy 25% damage reduction with a luck special effect.

 

My thinking was based upon making the limited healing a real defense based upon its special effect. Meaning that the character would never actually "take" the prevented damage and protecting the character from being stunned and such.

At that point you might as well chuck the whole thing out and just go with standard Combat Luck. I suppose Linking a small Healing with Combat Luck might simulate a character "who never seems to get hit quite as hard as you thought you hit him."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

On using Healing: Do those proposing this approach intend to handwave the limit of once per 24 hours generally applied to healing? No one has priced this out reducing the time limit, as near as I can see.

[Frenchman]

Re: Combat Luck variantIn response to Dust Raven's last comment; You would be able to put a limitation on the power to limit it to only going off with the trigger, otherwise the character could use his action to heal himself.Right after I posted my thoughts on Dust Raven's idea, I got to thinking, and while driving around for 6 hours at work, I think I may have figured out a simpler, cheaper way of doing what Fitz originally suggested.

Cost Power END 2 Combat Luck: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) +4 PD (4 Active Points); Random Effect (-1), STUN Only (-1) (Real Cost: 1) plus Armor (2 PD/0 ED) (3 Active Points); Random Effect (-1 1/2) (Real Cost: 1) 0 Powers Cost: 2

Like this, the pips are stun taken off, and the body is body taken off. And it costs 2.5 points per die per defense type. PD & ED Combat Luck would therefore cost 5 points per die.Making the defense hardened costs 3 1/3 points per die per defense type The limitation values for this being randomly determined are somewhat arbitrary, but -1 seems to be about right for the regular def, and I used -1 1/2 for the resistant def because the odds are against you when counting body more than when counting pips, and, more importantly, it was a number that allowed me to do the math in my head while driving. This seems to confirm what most everyone was saying, it being worth about 3 points per die and all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

It is worth 3.5 points to subtract 1d6 stun from your damage, in that on average, it works out about the same as having 3.5 points of normal defence, although on a case by case basis you may do a lot better or a lot worse.

 

That is as far as stun goes. For Body the cost would be the equivalent of 1 point of normal pd, if you use normal stun calculations (1 point unless you have a 6 or a 1), so don't: the result subtracts from both stun and body at the rolled points.

 

The trouble with using whole numbers is that you get rounding problems that can quite significantly effect the balance: you can't have half points.

 

Why not cost it at 5 points for 1d6 of 'combat luck' (bought seperately for pd and ed), and apply a limitation at -1/2 that you have to take (like HA).

 

To make it work against killing attacks, apply a +1/2 advantage.

 

Thus 4d6 physical and energy combat luck that works against killing attacks would cost (20 x 1.5 / 1.5)= 20 x 2 = 40 points, or about the same as 13/14 points of physical and energy armour, with practically the same effect on average.

 

Personally I think it is too long winded to be rolling damage and defences, but if you like it, go for it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

It is worth 3.5 points to subtract 1d6 stun from your damage, in that on average, it works out about the same as having 3.5 points of normal defence, although on a case by case basis you may do a lot better or a lot worse.

 

That is as far as stun goes. For Body the cost would be the equivalent of 1 point of normal pd, if you use normal stun calculations (1 point unless you have a 6 or a 1), so don't: the result subtracts from both stun and body at the rolled points.

 

The trouble with using whole numbers is that you get rounding problems that can quite significantly effect the balance: you can't have half points.

 

Why not cost it at 5 points for 1d6 of 'combat luck' (bought seperately for pd and ed), and apply a limitation at -1/2 that you have to take (like HA).

 

To make it work against killing attacks, apply a +1/2 advantage.

 

Thus 4d6 physical and energy combat luck that works against killing attacks would cost (20 x 1.5 / 1.5)= 20 x 2 = 40 points, or about the same as 13/14 points of physical and energy armour, with practically the same effect on average.

 

Personally I think it is too long winded to be rolling damage and defences, but if you like it, go for it.

It is a metarule for the Hero System that defenses always cost less than the attack they defend against, often much less. Any variant on Combat Luck basically has to cost no more than the current official version. And that means it also needs to include Resistant and Hardened within that price. None of the proposed versions in this thread have met that standard except mine, and I'm not real happy with it either.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

It is a metarule for the Hero System that defenses always cost less than the attack they defend against' date=' often much less. Any variant on Combat Luck basically has to cost no more than the current official version. And that means it also needs to include Resistant and Hardened within that price. None of the proposed versions in this thread have met that standard except mine, and I'm not real happy with it either.[/quote']

 

 

...but then combat luck is only really designed to be used at one or at most two levels for characters who do not have any other resistant defences to allow for a concept of someone who does not wear armour but never seems to get stunned by killing attacks either.

 

What is being proposed here seems more like a defence of a more general applicability, and so should be comparable in prince to 'normal' defences.

 

If you just want a bit of variation in your combat luck defences, buy some or all of it with activation rolls.

 

Don't forget that combat luck has built in limitations too: it is luck based, so if you can't avoid the damage somehow you take it and ignore the combat luck. My suggestion did not include this sort of limitation, but if it was added in it would bring the cost down.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

Just re-read the first post on this thread. Part of Fitz's original post mentioned KB resistance: you could just link that straight in. You don't have to define it as 'invisible armour' - I have never thought of it that way, it is just a way of avoiding damage by always being fortunate enough to not quite catch the full impact...that it may be built using the Armour power really does not matter.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

...but then combat luck is only really designed to be used at one or at most two levels for characters who do not have any other resistant defences to allow for a concept of someone who does not wear armour but never seems to get stunned by killing attacks either.

 

What is being proposed here seems more like a defence of a more general applicability, and so should be comparable in prince to 'normal' defences.

 

If you just want a bit of variation in your combat luck defences, buy some or all of it with activation rolls.

 

Don't forget that combat luck has built in limitations too: it is luck based, so if you can't avoid the damage somehow you take it and ignore the combat luck. My suggestion did not include this sort of limitation, but if it was added in it would bring the cost down.

I play a character who gets literally half of her defenses from Combat Luck, so I'm well aware of its inherent limitations. You're absolutely right, Combat Luck is mostly for use to provide a bit of defense for characters with generally low defenses. I can't imagine anyone being crazy enough to build a brick around Combat Luck. But most of the proposed variants on this thread seem to want to go beyond that and make it a major defensive power, and once you do that it's no longer a Combat Luck variant, but rather a variation on more conventional defensive Powers such as Armor or Damage Reduction.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

Huh? OK' date=' one of us is confused -- what do you mean "doesn't stop BODY"?[/quote']

 

Well, as written, the power doesn't prevent BODY damage... it doesn't say it does, so it doesn't.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

Huh? OK' date=' one of us is confused -- what do you mean "doesn't stop BODY"?[/quote']WhammeWhamme is quite correct. As originally written your proposed variant does not reduce BODY damage. I quote it here:

 

That is, if you have any dice of Combat Luck, you'd roll them and count the BODY as if for a normal attack, subtracting 2 from the damage taken for each six showing, 0 for each 1, and one point each for 2-5. The total showing is subtracted from the STUN inflicted. You'd also roll for KB as usual, with the result subtracting from any KB done by the original attack.

The bold text is the relevant sentence. That may not have been what you meant, but it is what your writeup said.

[Fitz]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

OK, but I thought that the bit where I mentioned treating them exactly like damage dice made my meaning clear -- my mistake.

 

To clarify, what I meant was this:

• BODY shown on the (Combat Luck) dice cancels an equal amount of BODY inflicted by the attack
  
• The total showing on the dice cancels the same quantity of STUN inflicted by the attack
  
• If any positive "anti-KB" is rolled, it cancels a like amount of KB from the attack
  

 

Is that clearer?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Combat Luck variant

 

OK, but I thought that the bit where I mentioned treating them exactly like damage dice made my meaning clear -- my mistake.

 

To clarify, what I meant was this:

• BODY shown on the (Combat Luck) dice cancels an equal amount of BODY inflicted by the attack
  
• The total showing on the dice cancels the same quantity of STUN inflicted by the attack
  
• If any positive "anti-KB" is rolled, it cancels a like amount of KB from the attack
  

 

Is that clearer?

 

Eek! Anti-Damage-Dice! If you mix them together, the world will explode! Aaaaaaagh!

 

Okay, kidding aside...

 

2d6 of this equals:

+5 PD, +5 ED, STUN Only

2/2 Armour

And some weird KB resistance power. (-1" per die, for each die after the first 7)

 

So, the first seven dice is worth 5 points/die (4.5, rounded up because the anti-knockback is occasionally useful?). The 8th+ die is worth 6 points/die.

 

That's assuming they work ONLY vs normal and/or killing damage.