(newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

[lemming]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

Same inertia' date=' but no surface friction, so you lose, in effect 1d6 KBR if you are flying.[/quote']

I'll go along with what you and badger3k are saying.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

As to comic characters not having to worry about density increase that'll be because you can't think of a single comic book character who weights 12 and a half tons' date=' is human sized and doesn't fly (or who does!).[/quote']

 

The Vision is only able to fly by maintaining a low and fluctuating density. He has been described as hitting some masses in the tens of tons, I believe. Nova had a diamond-dense opponent - not sure his mass was ever addressed. Stone Boy from the Legion of Substitute Heroes got pretty heavy. I'm sure there's more if you actually go looking instead of listing off the top of the head, as I'm doing.

 

I suppose they could all have 1" Flight, 0 END, Persistent, Linked to DI, only to prevent crushing objects beneath them, but it hardly seems likely.

 

I do like the point one poster made some time back that DI would better be renamed "Hardness", such that increased mass isn't an automatic component. After all, many plastics and woods are far harder than flesh, but lighter than humans. Water, on the other hand, isn't solid, but is heavier (denser) than a human body, otherwise we would sink, not float.

 

At the end of the day, I agree it's not too realistic to ignore these problems - a person who weights 12 t0onnes would cause a lot of damage. But then, how realistic is a person who can increase his mass to 12 tons in the first place?

[zornwil]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

Warning: Overthinking Ahead

Density Increase gets you 5+1+1+2=9 points worth of effect for 5 points. I usually conceptualize it as NFC, Costs End (for activation and maintenance), and a -1/4 Side Effect on the Str and then Linked on the PD, ED, and KB resistance. The Side Effect is effectively a minor Phys Lim that Always Occurs when using the power, something that is technically not worth anything until you get to around 3 or 4 levels of DI. At lower levels of DI, its a very good deal.

 

At higher levels of DI, the Environmental Damage gets absurd (if enforced). Take the example of a character who has 12 levels of Density increase, weighing in at 409,600 KG. That character should be inflicting 14d6 crushing damage on his environment with every step (though the example in UB gives 24d6, that doesn't seem to be correct; or, I may be tired). Forget even trying to fight anyplace except in a re-enforced concrete and steel arena.

 

Personally, I have no problem with a character using Flight to counteract this; the Side Effect still means something when the character tries to move around in enclosed spaces or falls, and the points spent on flight could have gone elsewhere.

 

Just my $0.02.

I don't have a problem with that, FYI (i.e., I'd accept it fine in a game), I'm just a lot looser about it when running, I think.

[lemming]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

I suppose they could all have 1" Flight' date=' 0 END, Persistent, Linked to DI, only to prevent crushing objects beneath them, but it hardly seems likely.[/quote']

There are several cases of the Vision increasing density and having an effect on the enviroment.

Right as the Korvac saga was beginning, he's fighting Attuma on a coast guard ship that visibly buckles under the weight.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

There are several cases of the Vision increasing density and having an effect on the enviroment.

Right as the Korvac saga was beginning, he's fighting Attuma on a coast guard ship that visibly buckles under the weight.

 

But it rarely, if ever, impairs his ability to fight - it's no more a disadvantage than, say, the Human Torch's glowing trail after he flies by. We don't, for example, see the Vision battling at reduced effectiveness because "I dare not increase my density - the ship would be destroyed".

[OddHat]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

But it rarely' date=' if ever, impairs his ability to fight - it's no more a disadvantage than, say, the Human Torch's glowing trail after he flies by.[/quote']

 

This is why so few GMs enforce the downside of DI. By the rules, a serious DI brick without flight should be spending most of his time trying to wade through concrete.

[badger3k]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

But it rarely' date=' if ever, impairs his ability to fight - it's no more a disadvantage than, say, the Human Torch's glowing trail after he flies by. We don't, for example, see the Vision battling at reduced effectiveness because "I dare not increase my density - the ship would be destroyed".[/quote']

 

I'd have to look over my older issues, but I thought at one point he did go to his maximum density and couldn't move - I think it had something to do with a ship (or quinjet). Again, though, the comics and the game are two separate issues, and while the game can try to replicate the comics, it can't come close to reproducing them verbatim.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

I'd have to look over my older issues' date=' but I thought at one point he did go to his maximum density and couldn't move - I think it had something to do with a ship (or quinjet).[/quote']

 

I believe at one point there was a density level at which he was incapable of movement. [i'd build that as an MP slot with a ton of defenses and a side effect, myself, rather than DI - who needs STR if you can't move?]

 

Again' date=' though, the comics and the game are two separate issues, and while the game can try to replicate the comics, it can't come close to reproducing them verbatim.[/quote']

 

While I agree there are differences between the game and the source material, the objective of the game is to be able to simulate the source material. To me, DI was created for the Vision - not many characters have this ability, and he's the only one i can think of with a 25-30 year history. The frequency with which it causes a problem is far less than a -1/4 limitation, and could just as easily be atributed to SFX cropping up once in a blue moon.

 

"DI that causes you to sink through concrete and break structures", by contrast, is something I've seen rarely, if ever, in the comics.

[zornwil]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

I believe at one point there was a density level at which he was incapable of movement. [i'd build that as an MP slot with a ton of defenses and a side effect' date= myself, rather than DI - who needs STR if you can't move?]

 

 

 

While I agree there are differences between the game and the source material, the objective of the game is to be able to simulate the source material. To me, DI was created for the Vision - not many characters have this ability, and he's the only one i can think of with a 25-30 year history. The frequency with which it causes a problem is far less than a -1/4 limitation, and could just as easily be atributed to SFX cropping up once in a blue moon.

 

"DI that causes you to sink through concrete and break structures", by contrast, is something I've seen rarely, if ever, in the comics.

As a sidenote, if DI was largely created for Vision, then I wonder if the original version of Desolid was as well (with 8 BOD/phase) and also why wasn't a singular Density Change power created if Vision was the inspiration?

 

Just musing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

As a sidenote, if DI was largely created for Vision, then I wonder if the original version of Desolid was as well (with 8 BOD/phase) and also why wasn't a singular Density Change power created if Vision was the inspiration?

 

Just musing.

 

I'm just speculating as well, as far as inspiration for these powers go. I just can't recall any other character with any longevity who gained advantages by changing his density (and I believe Vision was the only one who ever referred to increasing his density specifically).

 

However, there were lots of characters who could move through walls in some fashion or another. In addition to Vision (and ignoring Shadowcat, who had no histpry when 1e came out, if she had appeared at all), we had the Spectre, Deadman, (any number of ghost characters, really) and Martian Manhunter, off the top of my head. Green Lantern had been shown passing through walls without damaging them, and that's the only way Dr. Fate could enter his tower. Marvel had the Red Ghost as well as a number of "deceased" characters, besides the Vision, and Dr. Srange's astral form. So I don't see Desolidification as being as likely to have been drawn from a single source character.

[zornwil]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

I'm just speculating as well, as far as inspiration for these powers go. I just can't recall any other character with any longevity who gained advantages by changing his density (and I believe Vision was the only one who ever referred to increasing his density specifically).

 

However, there were lots of characters who could move through walls in some fashion or another. In addition to Vision (and ignoring Shadowcat, who had no histpry when 1e came out, if she had appeared at all), we had the Spectre, Deadman, (any number of ghost characters, really) and Martian Manhunter, off the top of my head. Green Lantern had been shown passing through walls without damaging them, and that's the only way Dr. Fate could enter his tower. Marvel had the Red Ghost as well as a number of "deceased" characters, besides the Vision, and Dr. Srange's astral form. So I don't see Desolidification as being as likely to have been drawn from a single source character.

I thought that DI was made for Superman in addition even though of course he only has one Density, but back in the old days one did buy DI or Growth or such even for an ongoing unchanged state.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

I thought that DI was made for Superman in addition even though of course he only has one Density' date=' but back in the old days one did buy DI or Growth or such even for an ongoing unchanged state.[/quote']

 

I don't recall Supes ever being shown as extra-dense (or DI always on being in the early Enemies books, though it was soon used for charactrers like Colossus, the Hulk and the Thing in the fashion you note). I do recall Avar-7, the alien android who looked like he was based on the Vision, and Blackstar, the DI character in the Ultimates being published early on.

[zornwil]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

I don't recall Supes ever being shown as extra-dense (or DI always on being in the early Enemies books' date=' though it was soon used for charactrers like Colossus, the Hulk and the Thing in the fashion you note). I do recall Avar-7, the alien android who looked like he was based on the Vision, and Blackstar, the DI character in the Ultimates being published early on.[/quote']

I remember reading that his invulnerability and lack of KB was due to his increased mass on Earth. That would have been in the '70s (and of course well before I would have put it in HERO terms such as KB). Of course why he could also fly...well there's comic book logic!

[OddHat]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

The classic 70s Superman was heavier than a human, as was Supergirl; it came up in a few stories. Even Hugo Danner was heavier than he looked, and the Thing, the Hulk and Collossus could all be built using old style DI. Now that DI can't be always on, I think only some versions of Collossus and Hulk are still viable candidates.

[badger3k]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

The classic 70s Superman was heavier than a human' date=' as was Supergirl; it came up in a few stories. Even Hugo Danner was heavier than he looked, and the Thing, the Hulk and Collossus could all be built using old style DI. Now that DI can't be always on, I think only some versions of Collossus and Hulk are still viable candidates.[/quote']

The older Thor and the Asgardians were also denser than humans, and that gave them part of their strength and resiliency, and could be simulated by the full-time DI set (using older rules, new Lim rule, or handwaving). She-hulk might also apply, although since she stays in her "hero" form most of the time, I'm not sure if I'd give her a bye on that.

[Dust Raven]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

So it's looking like flight and partial DI are the best solutions. Thanks for the advice, guys. The jetpack is probably out for me considering the world this will most likely take place in won't have a whole lot of tech capable of lifting something that heavy in a wearable package. It's a good idea that I'll keep in mind for future situations, though.

 

Of course, this is for an NPC in a game I'm running right now, so I can fudge things, but I might want to play the concept too

Could always use a magic ring, alien tech or something like that.

[Agent333]

Re: (newbie) The Downside of Density Increase

 

If I were making a Density brick for a game that enforced the environmental damage I'd use the "I'm really cancelling my weight with my flight" excuse to build a limited increase with Strength, PD, ED and KB resist. I might also use the extreme rubber physics SFX that the mass I'm generating has non-Einstienian universe properties that cause it to be irregularly affected by gravity. Hit my PC, blow him up, drop him out of a plane it's like affecting a brick wall. But, he can still sit in the rowboat down on the pond in back of the Hero-HQ and fish. Wacky!