Sharing END

[Bloodstone]

I'm working on a pair of energy projectors that are fraternal twins. I want them to have abilities that only work when they are in physical contact with one another, sort of like how Aurora and Northstar used to be in Alphaflight (way back when, before Aurora's powers got changed half a dozen times).

 

First off, how much do you think the limitation of "Only while in physical contact with twin" whould be worth? Self only or Others Only is -1/2 and "only with others that have this power" is usually a -1, so I was thinking this might be worth around -3/4 or more. What say you all?

 

Anyhow, I want it so when the twins are touching one another, they can pool their END. How the hell do I write something like that up?

 

My first idea was Endurace, Usabele Simultaneously and then add on the above limitation, but I figured I should see if others have done something similar and how they may have done it.

 

Mind you, the plan is they don't actually get more end out of the deal. If twin A has 50 End and twin B has 45 End, then when they are touching they effectivly have a single pool of 95 end. If Twin A uses 15 end on his turn, then Twin B only has 70 end to use on her turn.

[Constantine]

Re: Sharing END

 

I would say only in contact with twin is a least a -1, maybe more, based on the disads quoted above. If only with others who have this power is a -1, then only with 1 specific person who has this 1 specific power would seem to be more limiting, not less.

 

As for the "sharing" end, its not quite the effect you are looking for, but give them an end reserve that only works when they are touching...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sharing END

 

As for the "sharing" end' date=' its not quite the effect you are looking for, but give them an end reserve that only works when they are touching...[/quote']

 

What about giving each an END battery equal to the other's END, limited to "cannot exceed twin's END" and "Usable only when touching twin", then give each twin a physical limitation that the other twin's use of his/her END battery reduces that twin's END an equal amount?

 

This still leaves a problem with REC for the battery, as it needs to be significantly more than the twin's REC to simulate a recovery each phase by the twin.

[Silbeg]

Re: Sharing END

 

What about giving each an END battery equal to the other's END, limited to "cannot exceed twin's END" and "Usable only when touching twin", then give each twin a physical limitation that the other twin's use of his/her END battery reduces that twin's END an equal amount?

 

This still leaves a problem with REC for the battery, as it needs to be significantly more than the twin's REC to simulate a recovery each phase by the twin.

Something like that might work, but would be very difficult to manage (as you hint).

 

I would allow a -1 limitation on the "Ony while touching Twin", and a -1/2 for the side-effect of draining END from Twin equal to amount used.

 

The recovery is the tricky part... not sure how that would work.

 

I am wonding if there might be a better construct... but cannot think of any that wouldn't require an attack action (yet)..

 

Maybe something along the lines of Aid to END, triggers on touching twin:

 

24: Pooled END Aid END 3d6, Can Add Maximum Of 40 Points, Trigger when touching twin (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4) (72 Active Points); Using Aided END will cause twin to lose an equal amount of END, and may not use more than twin's current END (-1), Self Only (-1/2), Only Restores to Starting Values (-1/2)

 

This might be close?

[Constantine]

Re: Sharing END

 

Something like that might work, but would be very difficult to manage (as you hint).

 

I would allow a -1 limitation on the "Ony while touching Twin", and a -1/2 for the side-effect of draining END from Twin equal to amount used.

 

The recovery is the tricky part... not sure how that would work.

 

I am wonding if there might be a better construct... but cannot think of any that wouldn't require an attack action (yet)..

 

Maybe something along the lines of Aid to END, triggers on touching twin:

 

24: Pooled END Aid END 3d6, Can Add Maximum Of 40 Points, Trigger when touching twin (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4) (72 Active Points); Using Aided END will cause twin to lose an equal amount of END, and may not use more than twin's current END (-1), Self Only (-1/2), Only Restores to Starting Values (-1/2)

 

This might be close?

 

This is probably truer to the intent, but screams too much work to me....

[Silbeg]

Re: Sharing END

 

This is probably truer to the intent' date=' but screams too much work to me....[/quote'] Perhaps, but if you just make it "Standard Effect", then you are aiding 9END/phase. It also gets around the problem of having to buy all the powers that draw END with the +1/4 Advantage (Draw from Personal END or END Reserve).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sharing END

 

The END battery advantage to draw from either makes that a poor approach, I agree. What about a variant on Transfer? The power really just transfers END from one target to the other, it can only be used on one person and the target has to consent to its use.

 

Pooled END Transfer END 3d6, Can Add Maximum Of 60 Points of END (30 CP), [57 points] Trigger when touching twin (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4), fades per minute (+1/4), 0 END (+1/2) (142 Active Points); Only Restores to Starting Values (-1/2); Healed at normal REC (-0), Canot reduce target below 0 END (-0), Only usable vs Twin (-2), Target must permit power to work (-1), END transferred cannot exceed END used in phase (-1/2) real cost 28

 

Make it standard effect and that's up to 18 END per phase, which should be plenty for most characters. You can always increase it, and/or increase the max if the twins have more than 60 END.

 

This sucks, however, because I could buy an extra 56 END for the same cost, with no limits. The Aid approach sucks almost as bad since I could have an extra 48 unlimited END.

 

Let's assume each twin has 60 END. How about "+60 END" (30 AP); must be touching twin to use (-2); cannot exceed twin's current END (-1) = 7 points. Each Twin takes Phys Lim: loses END equal to that used by twin from shared END power (GM call as to frequency and significance; I'd call it 10 or 15 points).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sharing END

 

What happens when the two twins stop touching? Does their END average? Or do they have to say whether or not they are using their own or their twins END (and can take some from each if need be)?

 

Off the top of my head, I'd just say put the +1/4 Advantage on each of their Powers that would use either END (like you would for Powers that can use either the character's END or an END Reserve). Then they can use their own END, or use each other's when touching (any physical contact would be allowed, and technically just standing in the same hex would count). This shouldn't be bought as a Naked Advantage and should be further limited, as you have to be in contact with the alternate END by default.

[Frenchman]

Re: Sharing END

 

Why not buy Usable By Other on the characters's END? It seems to me that this would accomplish exactly what you are attempting to achieve.

[Constantine]

Re: Sharing END

 

What happens when the two twins stop touching? Does their END average? Or do they have to say whether or not they are using their own or their twins END (and can take some from each if need be)?

 

Off the top of my head, I'd just say put the +1/4 Advantage on each of their Powers that would use either END (like you would for Powers that can use either the character's END or an END Reserve). Then they can use their own END, or use each other's when touching (any physical contact would be allowed, and technically just standing in the same hex would count). This shouldn't be bought as a Naked Advantage and should be further limited, as you have to be in contact with the alternate END by default.

 

That expensive End!!! How about End, bought with the only when touching twin, in the amount of the twins End, with the side effect on it that when this end is used, the other twins end goes down by the same amount??? That should have the desired effect, and avoids the whole +1/4 advantage that I had forgotten completely about...

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Sharing END

 

Somewhere in The Ultimate Vehicle, it discusses systems being powered from multiple END sources, which the systems buy as a +1/4 advantage (Can Use END from Multiple Sources). I wouldn't do anything with the twins END Reserves, I'd just buy their powers with the +1/4 advantage that let's the power be powered by either one, or both of the twins.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sharing END

 

Somewhere in The Ultimate Vehicle' date=' it discusses systems being powered from multiple END sources, which the systems buy as a +1/4 advantage (Can Use END from Multiple Sources). I wouldn't do anything with the twins END Reserves, I'd just buy their powers with the +1/4 advantage that let's the power be powered by either one, or both of the twins.[/quote']

 

The question this raises, as I note above, is one of value for points. With the points spent on this advantage, the twins could probably buy their END and REC up, unlimited, by a much greater amount.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Sharing END

 

This is an interesting concept. My initial sympathies are with Dust Raven. If a power can use END from multiple sources then it is better than a power that cannot - thus it should be advantaged.

 

It is not the END that is better it is the power.

 

Hugh had a problem in that the points spent on improving the powers could be spent upgrading the amount of END or REC available. That is true but each twin will benefit from every point of END and REC bought for each of them - END and REC, through this power become cheaper and so the powers should be more expensive to compensate.

 

The twins spend more on their powers because they are more flexible END wise. If one of them has a suppressed REC then he still gets to use and recover END as his twin is un-suppressed. If one is subject to an END drain then he can use his twin's END without suffering from 1D6 Stun per 2 END below zero.

 

Doc

[Constantine]

Re: Sharing END

 

This is an interesting concept. My initial sympathies are with Dust Raven. If a power can use END from multiple sources then it is better than a power that cannot - thus it should be advantaged.

 

It is not the END that is better it is the power.

 

Hugh had a problem in that the points spent on improving the powers could be spent upgrading the amount of END or REC available. That is true but each twin will benefit from every point of END and REC bought for each of them - END and REC, through this power become cheaper and so the powers should be more expensive to compensate.

 

The twins spend more on their powers because they are more flexible END wise. If one of them has a suppressed REC then he still gets to use and recover END as his twin is un-suppressed. If one is subject to an END drain then he can use his twin's END without suffering from 1D6 Stun per 2 END below zero.

 

Doc

 

Respectfully, Doc, I don't think your logic makes sense in this case. We don't recost the entire character when we buy new powers, even if the new power makes his old ones more effect. If you increase your OCV, your energy blast becomes more effective, but it doesn't cost more. By the same token, if you buy reduced penetration on an attack, you don't force everyone you may fight in the future to recost their defenses because they are more effective. The powers in this case remain exactly the same, and in my second example, only draw from one twins endurance (though the side effect makes the other twins endurance go down as well). So, in effect, the twins are paying for the same endurance, AND you want them to pay for an advantage on top of that???

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Sharing END

 

Respectfully, Doc, I don't think your logic makes sense in this case.

 

[snip]

 

So, in effect, the twins are paying for the same endurance, AND you want them to pay for an advantage on top of that???

 

All good points.

 

I think that the powers _do_ become more effective as they can be used more flexibly. If you increase the flexibility then the costs have to increase somewhere. You can do that by increasing the cost of the END or by increasing the cost of the power using the END.

 

If your GM is willing you could cost it as 0 points - which is probably the next best option in my view - adds to the mystique and background of the twindom but perhaps doesn't give quite enough bang to justify the extra costs imposed by +1/4 on the powers. Or perhaps a straight 5 point Talent that allows the twins to tap into each other END.

 

That fulfils my desire to see the increased flexibility cost somewhere on the character accounting but it doesn't increase the costs proportionately with the number of powers so 'flexified' (my word - I just invented it).

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sharing END

 

7I agree it should cost something. I make it as follows (reprinted from above):

 

Let's assume each twin has 60 END. How about "+60 END" (30 AP); must be touching twin to use (-2); cannot exceed twin's current END (-1) = 7 points. Each Twin takes Phys Lim: loses END equal to that used by twin from shared END power (GM call as to frequency and significance; I'd call it 10 or 15 points).

 

I don'tlike the Disad exceeding the cost. What if we call it a -1/4 side effect that the other twin must spend the END? Cost remains 7 from the above.

 

The 24/28 cost powers, or a +1/4 advantage on (say) 200 points of abilities seems like overkill. For 24 points each, each twin could have bought a 120 point END battery with 12 REC (likely more END than both of them pit together) to run their powers.

 

For 50, they could each have a 200 point END battery with 30 REC - fat chance either of them is near that in stats. And they can access that END if they're on opposite ends of the battlefield.

 

For 7, they could get a 50 point battery with 2 REC, which seems fitting given they have seriously limited their access to the extra END in the above construct. Not far off that 5 point talent (that would access up to 46 END, so might just be in the ballpark depending on the twins' stats).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Sharing END

 

For 7' date=' they could get a 50 point battery with 2 REC, which seems fitting given they have seriously limited their access to the extra END in the above construct. Not far off that 5 point talent (that would access up to 46 END, so might just be in the ballpark depending on the twins' stats).[/quote']

 

I think for the sake of game simplicity I might go for the 5 point talent then. It takes complexity out of the equation and simply means that the twins can manage their END between them when they are touching.

 

Long live KISS.

 

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sharing END

 

I'd want to see their END scores, but I suspect 5 points each would do the trick. If they had very high END, an increased cost might be warranted. But how often will they need to use the power if their END is already very high?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Sharing END

 

I'd want to see their END scores' date=' but I suspect 5 points each would do the trick. If they had very high END, an increased cost might be warranted. But how often will they need to use the power if their END is already very high?[/quote']

 

I think it woul dmake me as a GM far mroe interested in small knockback results!

[schir1964]

Re: Sharing END

 

I just skimmed most of the posts, so I might be duplicating ideas here.

How I would build it:

 

END Reserve

Limitations: Usable By Others

SFX: END That can only be used by Twin while in physical contact with Twin.

 

Each twin would have to buy an END Reserve for the other twin. No limitation or reduction in value is assigned to not be able to use the END Reserve or for having to stay in contact.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sharing END

 

7I agree it should cost something. I make it as follows (reprinted from above):

 

Let's assume each twin has 60 END. How about "+60 END" (30 AP); must be touching twin to use (-2); cannot exceed twin's current END (-1) = 7 points. Each Twin takes Phys Lim: loses END equal to that used by twin from shared END power (GM call as to frequency and significance; I'd call it 10 or 15 points).

 

I don'tlike the Disad exceeding the cost. What if we call it a -1/4 side effect that the other twin must spend the END? Cost remains 7 from the above.

 

I think this is way underpriced. Must Be Touching is nowhere near a -2. How much do you get for Must Be Holding Foci? At best this would be a -1. Consider the other character an OAF, because he can be knocked away or either of you can be grabbed/entangled and prevented from touching. But it's not worth more than an OAF. Cannot Exceed Twin's Current END is also over valued. This does not make the Power half as useful or effective. I would call htis a -1/2. Given these values, the cost for +60 END would be 12. Not much of a difference, but a lot closer to the Disad (which I like, BTW).

 

The 24/28 cost powers, or a +1/4 advantage on (say) 200 points of abilities seems like overkill. For 24 points each, each twin could have bought a 120 point END battery with 12 REC (likely more END than both of them pit together) to run their powers.

 

For 50, they could each have a 200 point END battery with 30 REC - fat chance either of them is near that in stats. And they can access that END if they're on opposite ends of the battlefield.

 

For 7, they could get a 50 point battery with 2 REC, which seems fitting given they have seriously limited their access to the extra END in the above construct. Not far off that 5 point talent (that would access up to 46 END, so might just be in the ballpark depending on the twins' stats).

It really depends on what other Limitations and Modifiers they have on their Powers, to even if you ballpark the total value of Power at 200, we have no way of seeing what adding a +1/4 Advantage to each END costing Power would cost.

 

In any case, using the +1/4 Advantage is the only mechanics that does what Bloodstone is looking for. If you buy extra END, it would only recover when you recover, not when your twin does, and that's a problem. You'd have to buy your twin's REC as well, and with a much lower Lim of Only Recovers When Twin Recovers (most likely a -1/2; it would be a -1/4, but you don't get the REC when the twin uses a Phase to take a Recovery unless you do as well).

 

No matter what you do, this is gonna be expensive. Might as well go with the only mechanic that works. In the long run it'll probably be cheaper.

[Constantine]

Re: Sharing END

 

...In any case, using the +1/4 Advantage is the only mechanics that does what Bloodstone is looking for. If you buy extra END, it would only recover when you recover, not when your twin does, and that's a problem. You'd have to buy your twin's REC as well, and with a much lower Lim of Only Recovers When Twin Recovers (most likely a -1/2; it would be a -1/4, but you don't get the REC when the twin uses a Phase to take a Recovery unless you do as well).

 

No matter what you do, this is gonna be expensive. Might as well go with the only mechanic that works. In the long run it'll probably be cheaper.

 

This is not true. If I buy them both end that they only get when touching the other, there is not one thing in the rules that says I have to buy an advantage on one of their powers. If I then put the limitation, "using this end causes the other twins end to go down as well", that doesn't require me putting an advantage on all the powers either. Really, how many times do you want someone to pay for the same thing, Raven?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sharing END

 

This is not true. If I buy them both end that they only get when touching the other' date=' there is not one thing in the rules that says I have to buy an advantage on one of their powers. If I then put the limitation, "using this end causes the other twins end to go down as well", that doesn't require me putting an advantage on all the powers either. Really, how many times do you want someone to pay for the same thing, Raven?[/quote']

I'm not saying you have to do both. That would be wasteful.

 

But doing it by buying extra END won't fulfill the SFX is the ability, and causes problems whenever either character takes a Recovery, even on Post Segment 12.

 

I'm suggesting buying only the +1/4 Advantage on the END using Powers and nothing else. You wouldn't need anything else.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Sharing END

 

I'm suggesting buying only the +1/4 Advantage on the END using Powers and nothing else. You wouldn't need anything else.

 

this was my initial take. I am persuaded by the cost versus benefit argument though. A +1/4 advantage on 200 points costs 50 points. If each twin was gaining END then this might justify them both spending that amount.

 

Given that there is no extra END gained - just some flexibility in how existing END is used I'd be more inclined to charge each with the 5 point talent. It means I wouldn't have to worry about whether each power that a twin used could or could not draw from the other twin (coz players are cheap and wouldn't make all the powers able to do it!)

 

 

Doc

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sharing END

 

this was my initial take. I am persuaded by the cost versus benefit argument though. A +1/4 advantage on 200 points costs 50 points. If each twin was gaining END then this might justify them both spending that amount.

 

Given that there is no extra END gained - just some flexibility in how existing END is used I'd be more inclined to charge each with the 5 point talent. It means I wouldn't have to worry about whether each power that a twin used could or could not draw from the other twin (coz players are cheap and wouldn't make all the powers able to do it!)

 

 

Doc

I suppose it depends on what can and can't be used in this way. I still think it's worth the full cost of putting a +1/4 Advantage on anything that costs END though. While you aren't getting any END of your own, you are getting END you can use. I've used the same mechanic for some magic users that can use END found in the envionment (such as ley lines and places of mystical power). In this case, it's just the one character that's such a "place of power", but said character is likely to always be a round.

 

Then again, each point of END you use from the other character is a point of END that character can't use. That can be represented by a Disad like ones discussed above, or just as easily boiled down to a Talent that both characters must take.

 

A note about Talents though: You really shouldn't make something a Talent unless you can also build it as a Power or Skill. I see that's been done above, but the construct that's used is extremely limited and doesn't take all of the ramifications into account. Whatever mechanic you use, it might be a good idea to lable it as somehwhat universal; meaning that anyone with the Talent can only use the END of anyone else with the Talent, and anyone with the Talent can also use their END. It could be interesting if another character shows up with that Talent.

 

Ultimately I think it should be a Power of some sort, which would solidify it more and make sure it's only these two characters that can do with among each other.