The Hyborian Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Not necessarily. If the rings are a "set" in that they are seperate objects but are always together (the character either has all of them, or all are taken at the same time), then it could still be OIF. The SFX is that they are seperate objects but the mechanic need not be. Of course, there is a rule for Foci about having several seperate objects representing your Power. I can see where you are going here. Its much like having a magic staff with multiple MP slots in it. The only thing that I would add is that if you went this route then the entire set of rings could be taken away (out of cambat if they are OIF) in the same time that it took to take one ring away. Essentially, if the character was out of combat and not resisting, then all the rings could be removed from him in one turn. Provided its not that hard to pull them off, I could see this. On the other hand, If each has to be taken away one at a time, one turn per ring, then the reserve would not get the limitation points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hyborian Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... One question' date=' why WOULDNT a player just say theyre UNBREAKABLE FOCI??? Whats the real disadvantage considering the cost differential is 0???[/quote'] I would agree that overall unbreakable foci are more usefull than breakable ones. There are some balancing factors, however. A player must define a way that "unbreakable" foci can be broken. If lost, stolen, or destroyed unbreakable foci are a huge pain in the tush to replace. Its not impossible, but it is very hard, and probably requires a great deal of in game effort. Breakable foci, on the other hand, are fairly easy to replace or repair. Usually its a matter of going back to base for a replacement, spare parts, etc. Batman has plenty of gadgets back at the cave to restock the utility belt. If your character gets captured and has his breakable focus taken away you can get another one fairly easily once you break out or get rescued. If its a unbreakable focus, however, you are probably going to be without it for a while. Making a new one is a huge deal, or you must recover it from whoever took it from you. And if you go with option B and the focus is universal, be ready to have it used againsts you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted March 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Making a new one is a huge deal' date=' or you must recover it from whoever took it from you. And if you go with option B and the focus is universal, be ready to have it used againsts you.[/quote'] The only addition I have to this is that to be used against you it would be Independent, or at least a very small or specialized group that could use it against you....after all, it was a focus for the characters abilities, not a universal item... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Too lazy to read the whole thread before making this point so I hope I don't echo someone else here, but why not two different MPs, one for each hand, that way he can use one ring off each hand at the same time? That way he can have offensive powers in one set of rings with the defensive/support powers in the other. That's what I did when I made my ripof, er... homage to Mandarin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted March 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Too lazy to read the whole thread before making this point so I hope I don't echo someone else here' date=' but why not two different MPs, one for each hand, that way he can use one ring off each hand at the same time? That way he can have offensive powers in one set of rings with the defensive/support powers in the other. That's what I did when I made my ripof, er... homage to Mandarin.[/quote'] Actually, I was thinking of that...except that I was ALSO going to allow him to "Move" rings from one hand to the other during downtime (not combat) so that the MPs (both of which will be 60AP) will have moveable slots....Looking at the other character in the game, I dont even think Im going to make him pay for it. It IS and advantage, true, but its not gamebreaking, so Ill probably just "fudge" it....not sure yet... However, this ALSO allows him to do MPAs, which is a very dangerous thing indeed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Actually, I was thinking of that...except that I was ALSO going to allow him to "Move" rings from one hand to the other during downtime (not combat) so that the MPs (both of which will be 60AP) will have moveable slots....Looking at the other character in the game, I dont even think Im going to make him pay for it. It IS and advantage, true, but its not gamebreaking, so Ill probably just "fudge" it....not sure yet... However, this ALSO allows him to do MPAs, which is a very dangerous thing indeed.... You can do MPAs with normal Multi Powers, as long as you have enough reserve for both attacks to be active at the same time though, so it's not too damaging really... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... True, however, if I DO target them in combat, they will NOT have ANY way to be restored, as per storyline...So like Captain A's shield, it should probably be unbreakable. GLs ring was "unbreakable" for the most part, in that it was NEVER targeted in combat....However it could be broken, but that was never taken advantage of in combat. Either way, there is NO WAY ON EARTH (literally) anyone can fix these rings.... They are old, ancient oriental relics used by many masters throughout history. A skilled chinese artisan received a dream about these ten rings of wonderous power. Upon waking he was driven to craft them to exactness. He spent over seventy years of his life making the ten beautiful masterpieces, and sadly died when the tenth one was finished. Secretly the designs were send down to earth by an alien race that knew humans would one day develop into powerful beings. The designs were sent down as a test to humanity to see how it would react to power. They are alien devices that feed off of human emotions as batteries (hence they are NOT build with an END reserve, or used with NO end). The rings respond to the wearers beliefs and desires, and have the potential to either empower the earth or help humanity destroy itself. A small storyline ensues to get the main character in possesion of the rings (and partially trained with them). And thats that....although NONE of this is set in stone YET... To me, these now sound very much like OIHID rather than a focus. He's never going to lose them unless they get taken from him while unconscious, and you'll get them back to him eventually. So, OIHID, may be forced to "revert" to human by taking the rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... To me' date=' these now sound very much like OIHID rather than a focus. He's never going to lose them unless they get taken from him while unconscious, and you'll get them back to him eventually. So, OIHID, may be forced to "revert" to human by taking the rings.[/quote'] Most OIF don't get removed unless taken after KO. When's the last time someone yanked PoweredArmorMan's armor off while in battle? The rings coud be taken after KO, or stolen while the character sleeps. They can't be grabbed off in combat or they would be OIF's. Whether they're breakable is a separate decision. To me, the tradeoff is "breakable means readily replaceable; unbreakable means much tougher/longer to replace" but, unless the focus is Independent, then I as a GM have to lket the characetr recover his focus (and his CP) somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... The only addition I have to this is that to be used against you it would be Independent' date=' or at least a very small or specialized group that could use it against you....after all, it was a focus for the characters abilities, not a universal item...[/quote'] Independent doesn't mean "can be used by others" (nor does having a non-independent item mean it cannot be). Independent means "if someone takes it or breaks it, you don't get to repalce it." If my OIF Powered Armor gets stolen or destroyed, I can rebuild it. I paid character points for it. I may, next week, meet the guy who stole it, and he's now wearing it. But if he wants to keep it, he has to pay the CP for it. If it's OIF - Independent, I can't replace it. The CP I invested in that armor are gone until/unless I can retrieve the armor. When the guy who stole it shows up, he does not have to have paid any points for it - he can just keep it. If, in the course of stopping him, I/my teammates destroy the armor, I'm permanently out the CP I invested in the armor. They are GoNE FOREVER! If I was a 350 point character, with 150 points in disadvantages, and spent 200 points (after limiations) on that Armor, I'm now a 150 point character with 150 points in disadvantages. I can only replace the armor by earning 200 xp and buying it again - and since the new armor is Independent, it can also be removed from me. [super Squirrel, you can show this to your Limitation Lass player if you want...] This doesn't impact whether it is Universal. A Universal focus can be used by other people (but not long-term, unless it was Independent or the user pays for the device). A non-universal focus cannot. The character will have to define whether his rings are Universal or not, separate and apart from whether they are Independent (NOT!, if he has any sense) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Too lazy to read the whole thread before making this point so I hope I don't echo someone else here' date=' but why not two different MPs, one for each hand, that way he can use one ring off each hand at the same time? That way he can have offensive powers in one set of rings with the defensive/support powers in the other. That's what I did when I made my ripof, er... homage to Mandarin.[/quote'] Why not a single MP (say 120 point pool with 10 60 point Ultras)? He can use any two powers at any one time. [or, to be cheesy, why not 1 MP for attack powers, with 8 slots, then pay an extra 15 to have 8 such rings, one for each finger, and MPA with those? Add a series of powers for defense and misc in a second ring, and pay 5 to double that to get one for each thumb. LOVE those doubling rules Obviously, I wouldn't allow that approach...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantine Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Most OIF don't get removed unless taken after KO. When's the last time someone yanked PoweredArmorMan's armor off while in battle? The rings coud be taken after KO, or stolen while the character sleeps. They can't be grabbed off in combat or they would be OIF's. Whether they're breakable is a separate decision. To me, the tradeoff is "breakable means readily replaceable; unbreakable means much tougher/longer to replace" but, unless the focus is Independent, then I as a GM have to lket the characetr recover his focus (and his CP) somehow. Ok, I'm at work, and don't have a book with me, but I though focus worked like this: OAF - can be taken away in combat OIF - can be taken from downed opponent, can't be targetted in combat (hence, inaccessable) OIHID (not a focus, I know) - can only be taken by gm fiat Is this incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Ok, I'm at work, and don't have a book with me, but I though focus worked like this: OAF - can be taken away in combat OIF - can be taken from downed opponent, can't be targetted in combat (hence, inaccessable) OIHID (not a focus, I know) - can only be taken by gm fiat Is this incorrect? OIF can be targetted in combat by an attack, but canot be Grabbed away or Disarmed. IOW, you can still try to break it, but you can't remove it (without the owner's consent, anyway) in combat. OIHID is used for other purposes, but in some cases for foci that can't be taken away like a focus, and can't be attacked separately/broken (or at least not using the Focus rules) either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hyborian Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... The only addition I have to this is that to be used against you it would be Independent' date=' or at least a very small or specialized group that could use it against you....after all, it was a focus for the characters abilities, not a universal item...[/quote'] When you build a focus you define it as either personal or universal. A personal focus can be used only by the character. A universal focus can be used by anyone who gets their hands on it. Independant is different. Hugh went over the details in his post. There is no point difference between personal or universal. There are advantages and disadvantages each way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted March 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Yeah, I'll probably house rule this because these rings are very similar to a GL ring... SURE you can use it, but it requires strength of will and training. For example, Green Arrow recently used Hals old ring in the Rebirth series. However, the ring wasn't charged so he used his own will, which he wasnt accoustomed to using. This instantly drained him and he had to he CARRIED out of the fight.... So with these particular rings in my game, anyone could use them if they had a little bit of training, but to use them WELL, you have to have a long bonded experience with them and mastery over your own emotions..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Actually, even Unbreakable foci can be broken- you must declare one method that can destroy it, usually based around it's orgin, such as tossing the one ring into the fires of Mount Doom. The big difference being unbreakable foci can not then be reforged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hyborian Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Re: Ring Ring go away.... Actually' date=' even Unbreakable foci can be broken- you must declare one method that can destroy it, usually based around it's orgin, such as tossing the one ring into the fires of Mount Doom. The big difference being unbreakable foci can not then be reforged.[/quote'] Well, yes and no about unbreakable foci not being reforged. You cant just go back to base and fix up another one. But the character is not out the points either. (thats the independant limitation). It should be a major in-game project to regain a destroyed unbreakable foci. I think the 5th edition rules use the word "quest" to describe the process of getting it back. Meaning it should be a long, difficult, costly, possibly dangerous undertaking. But it should be possible with significant effort, however. Either that, or the player and GM may decide its time to rebuild the character, and spend the points elsewhere, either on new different equipment, training the character undergoes to compensate for the loss of the item. But your not just out of luck. That only happens if you have an item with the Independant limitation. T.H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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