Herogames: The Sportscar Product

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm not saying HERO system is perfect. I have yet to see a generic system do supers as well, or even close it, HERO's treatment of the subject. If they base NE on SW rules, all Im saying is that the version of SW will not closely resemble stock SW, so as to be unrecognizable (see the M&M d20 conversation). Or, it will do a poor job as a Supers game. Or both.

 

For me, HERO is about it for Supers, until and unless I find something better, and it does everything else pretty well, too.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

A.S.

 

You are judging before seeing. You are making assumptions based upon false premises... 1) a Generic system cannot build towards a good supers game. 2) Champions is perfect.

 

Champions, IMO, is not a perfect emulation of superhero comics. I grant that it is close. The speed chart cause problems, I think Feng Shui shot clock emulates the panel/scene ebb and flow of comic book combat BETTER than Champions. I think M&M's damage emulates perfectly a 70s comic feel (but not Iron Age). I think STR is way too cheap and too many characters have paranormal defenses simply to stay effective in combat. I think END, turn radius, and inches is a leftover from wargaming roots of 1970s gaming theory.

 

I've been fairly close to what the NE crew is doing. It sounds pretty damn good to me. And I've got a real head on my shoulders for game systems and genre emulation. Granted, it might not be to your taste. I can accept that. But to dismiss it (before it is even out) outright is ridiculous.

I'd love to debate your comments on END, inches, turn radius, and the speed chart all in respect to genre-appropriatness but this isn't the thread.

 

Maybe I can just suffice to say you're wrong.

 

However, I do agree that a generic system can build a great supers game and that Champions wasn't perfect. In fact, a large part of the issues we have now are related to the imperfections of Champions as writ large because they weren't addressed in the beginning - particularly in regard to Adjustment Powers.

[Fox1]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I'd love to debate your comments on END, inches, turn radius, and the speed chart all in respect to genre-appropriatness but this isn't the thread.

 

Maybe I can just suffice to say you're wrong.

 

I agree with zornwil.

 

IMO on the general subject of this thread, if the Sportcar Product isn't Superheroes, than Hero System doesn't have a Sportcar Product.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I agree with zornwil.

 

IMO on the general subject of this thread, if the Sportcar Product isn't Superheroes, than Hero System doesn't have a Sportcar Product.

Well, I'm not going that far to be clear. I think the sportscar product could be Pulp or Horror. Personally I'm prone to supers, but that's the genre I like best and also the one I came to HERO/Champions for, so it's a powerful bias. That being said, if HERO can't do the ideal supers all-in-one game, then that'd be a pretty sorry indictment of the game.

 

Related, I bet we could outdo MnM with a "built from HERO" product if we really wanted to for a simple fast-moving supers game, although I think that wouldn't be sucha recognizably HERO product when it was said and done, and thus not a good candidate in and of itself as a true introduction.

[BlackSword]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I saw elsewhere that Eden Studios had grabbed the liscence for City of Heroes. I think that would have been an ideal for a Sports Car product. It would be a straightforward translation from the computer game to Hero. The product would have name recognition and hopefully bring some people from the MMOG to the table. Also those who liked the computer game, but not neccesarily Hero might buy it for the setting material. Though DoJ has stated in the past that there have no interest in liscencing titles.

[Storn]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I'd love to debate your comments on END, inches, turn radius, and the speed chart all in respect to genre-appropriatness but this isn't the thread.

 

Maybe I can just suffice to say you're wrong.

 

However, I do agree that a generic system can build a great supers game and that Champions wasn't perfect. In fact, a large part of the issues we have now are related to the imperfections of Champions as writ large because they weren't addressed in the beginning - particularly in regard to Adjustment Powers.

 

No, you cannot say I'm wrong. You CAN say that you disagree with me.

 

Quickly then...

 

Flash, Robin, Green Arrow and Superman all respond to the call for action and arrive at the scene of the crime at the same time. Happens ALL the TIME in comics. Panel one, the call. Panel two, heroes assemble.

 

Now in champions, that just doesn't make sense. Flash and Supes have movement in the Megascale dept. Robin and Green Arrow do not.

 

Or, bad guys split up (tactical situation now) and the Heroes give chase. Because we are simulating comic combat, everyone gets to do something. When, by mechanics wise.... Flash goes Segment one, does a move by on several dudes and they are down for the count. Everyone else stands around wondering why they were called in. That isn't genre emulation...

 

A game system that breaks combat down into Panels/Scenes might make MORE sense for a combat that seeks to simulate comic book combat. Then, it doesn't matter if Flash takes .002 secs and Robin takes 10 minutes to get to the scene of the crime, it all happens as per Panel. The tone of the rules as well as the rules themselves support the genre.

 

When do we see Superheroes exhausted from the use of their powers?... extremely rarely and only when they are "pushing". Not from routine use. Yet in Champions, END is a constant concern. Again, it is a govenor that I don't think is very Genre. Now, I don't mind END for RDU, because it isn't trying to be comic book emulation. I think the similarity between Champions END, STUN REC, and defenses and Battletech's Heat Sinks as govenors on battle tactics striking. And why the best bet in Champions is to load up 3 of your guys against one of the enemy team and take that one down as fast as possible. Just like Btech stresses the same smashmouth tactics. Which is SO not genre in team vs. team situation, unless that team happens to be lead by Cyclops.

 

I think M&M's hero points is a FAR SUPERIOR & ELEGANT mechanic to doing power stunts than trying to build all your nuances into your EC or Multi or VPP and shoehorning Power Skill into the mix. A mechanic that we've had in our Champions game for several years prior to M&M.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I still think Champions is wonderful system. But don't try to sell me on its great comic book emulation. I have drawn fight scenes. I have deconstructed sequential art to the best of my ability. I have thought about how comics and roleplaying coincide AND depart. And this is the thought of some 25 years in the making. You will not convince me that Champions is the best emulation of superhero conflict.

 

I will concide that it might be the best CHARGEN of superheroes ever (or so far). A framework that even computer games follow (Freedom Force for sure, I haven't played City of Heroes).

[Fox1]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

No, you cannot say I'm wrong. You CAN say that you disagree with me.

 

Quickly then...

 

 

I don't think we really want to debate this. Especially since the whole thing turns on what one wants to see in their comic book rpg and not really what is there. For many including myself, HERO is perfect for superheroes. 'Nuff said.

 

And of course he can say you're wrong. Judging from his desires and needs you are. That's the implied concept when one is speaking of fuzzy fun things like games. Don't look for insults or you'll find them.

[Storn]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I don't think we really want to debate this. Especially since the whole thing turns on what one wants to see in their comic book rpg and not really what is there. For many including myself, HERO is perfect for superheroes. 'Nuff said.

 

And of course he can say you're wrong. Judging from his desires and needs you are. That's the implied concept when one is speaking of fuzzy fun things like games. Don't look for insults or you'll find them.

 

I didn't take it as an insult. But I didn't take it as an understanding of the argument either.

 

I'm sorry about the thread derail... but this IS an issue that impacts the whole Sportscar metaphor of this thread.

[Fox1]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I didn't take it as an insult. But I didn't take it as an understanding of the argument either.

 

I'm sorry about the thread derail... but this IS an issue that impacts the whole Sportscar metaphor of this thread.

 

I can't speak for others, but I think the argument is clear. I've heard it many many times and not just in connection to HERO. I know people who would claim that there's nothing in HERO to support ANY genre.

 

We really don't want to go down this road since we're here on a site that is basically all about supporting HERO.

 

 

As to the whole Sportscar metaphor of the thread, I don't have strong feelings on the matter. I assume the company will make the decision without consulting with me. Heck, the company went ahead with Fantasy Hero after I told them it was worthless years ago when they did sort of ask me so

 

My only opinion on that matter is that if it can't do Superheroes, it can't do anything. That's the game's original roots and it shows at nearly every turn- even if it does so in a style that doesn't please you.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

No' date=' you cannot say I'm wrong. You CAN say that you disagree with me.[/quote']

 

I was hoping it was evident it was just a joke, Storn, really.

 

Quickly then...

 

Flash, Robin, Green Arrow and Superman all respond to the call for action and arrive at the scene of the crime at the same time. Happens ALL the TIME in comics. Panel one, the call. Panel two, heroes assemble.

 

Now in champions, that just doesn't make sense. Flash and Supes have movement in the Megascale dept. Robin and Green Arrow do not.

 

Or, bad guys split up (tactical situation now) and the Heroes give chase. Because we are simulating comic combat, everyone gets to do something. When, by mechanics wise.... Flash goes Segment one, does a move by on several dudes and they are down for the count. Everyone else stands around wondering why they were called in. That isn't genre emulation...

 

A game system that breaks combat down into Panels/Scenes might make MORE sense for a combat that seeks to simulate comic book combat. Then, it doesn't matter if Flash takes .002 secs and Robin takes 10 minutes to get to the scene of the crime, it all happens as per Panel. The tone of the rules as well as the rules themselves support the genre.

 

When do we see Superheroes exhausted from the use of their powers?... extremely rarely and only when they are "pushing". Not from routine use. Yet in Champions, END is a constant concern. Again, it is a govenor that I don't think is very Genre. Now, I don't mind END for RDU, because it isn't trying to be comic book emulation. I think the similarity between Champions END, STUN REC, and defenses and Battletech's Heat Sinks as govenors on battle tactics striking. And why the best bet in Champions is to load up 3 of your guys against one of the enemy team and take that one down as fast as possible. Just like Btech stresses the same smashmouth tactics. Which is SO not genre in team vs. team situation, unless that team happens to be lead by Cyclops.

 

I think M&M's hero points is a FAR SUPERIOR & ELEGANT mechanic to doing power stunts than trying to build all your nuances into your EC or Multi or VPP and shoehorning Power Skill into the mix. A mechanic that we've had in our Champions game for several years prior to M&M.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I still think Champions is wonderful system. But don't try to sell me on its great comic book emulation. I have drawn fight scenes. I have deconstructed sequential art to the best of my ability. I have thought about how comics and roleplaying coincide AND depart. And this is the thought of some 25 years in the making. You will not convince me that Champions is the best emulation of superhero conflict.

 

I will concide that it might be the best CHARGEN of superheroes ever (or so far). A framework that even computer games follow (Freedom Force for sure, I haven't played City of Heroes).

 

I really don't want to hijack the thread for this nor do I really feel motivated for this particular discussion, however, I'll just leave a very general thought, which is that the compensatory tools - from the system - with which END, movement, and such are handled provide the capability to deal with most of these issues while also allowing the game to deal wtih other genres as well.

 

I also want to leave you with another general thought; comics simulation is in the mind of the beholder. The values and insights you have into comic book combat are different than mine, I can bet on that. The degree to which HERO or MnM or other systems do a good job of representing this is the degree to which our prejudices our mimicked. You and I had an interesting exchange otherwise regarding damage infliction in the two systems; our perspectives were/are shaped by our own prejudices in what comic book combats we like and how we saw those. I have always assumed a lot of action not visible "between" panels due to the limitations of space, and I carry with me an imagination based around that as well as what I saw on the pages (and now more so in the movies).

 

To give you one simple specific to expose my train of thought, END is only a factor, essentially, for PCs who want it to be; otherwise you just tie down some points to never deal with it. If you want to deal with it, what really happens is that you have a pool and you can only do so much with that pool. You never feel "tired' you can just do something or you cannot. In comics, characters take many breaks during combat, not just to perform soliloquys but also as they are trying not to get tagged. Some of this is dodging...but I contend some of it is END reservation or restoration. At least that's how I've seen it; guys like Green Arrow or Hawk and Dove in my now-half-imagined memories - which are all that matter when roleplaying heroic fiction - certainly seemed to be not taking actions very frequently. Even Batman spends a lot of time on the field just observing and pausing. Superman doesn't, but he's Superman - he's all 0 END, all the way!

 

That's just my perspective. I agree that there's no way I can convince you or you can convince me, but what I will say is that I really do think that "provably" (recognizing that it's not as if I can truly prove it, but I view these as facts) the tools we have: 1) with either some or serious tinkering CAN emulate the fiction the way you want (which is another tangent but in a sense we've been discussing this one ongoing); and 2) DO emulate the fiction of choice for many people just fine, which speaks to the fact that they got it right in some large respect.

 

BUT ONE BIG CAVEAT - there is an ongoing limitation of an RPG being an entirely different media and approach than comics; I believe these limitations do preclude 100% "compliance" with simulating comic book (or action movie or romance novel, or whatever) material. But I don't believe these are rules-based limitations. And on that note, while naturally I can step back and by all means agree there are "some" rules which are counter-productive towards comic book replication, I do believe, to reiterate the above, that none of these rules are inviolate, that all such rules that fall under this umbrella can be changed to suit the simulation requirements without the system ceasing to be HERO.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I saw elsewhere that Eden Studios had grabbed the liscence for City of Heroes. I think that would have been an ideal for a Sports Car product. It would be a straightforward translation from the computer game to Hero. The product would have name recognition and hopefully bring some people from the MMOG to the table. Also those who liked the computer game' date=' but not neccesarily Hero might buy it for the setting material. Though DoJ has stated in the past that there have no interest in liscencing titles.[/quote']

Purely personal comment - I'm glad they took it and they can keep it. The gaming world seemed pretty blah to me (though certainly beautifully done and with some good mechanics). That isn't a comment on the commerciality of it or whether HERO could have or should have been involved from a marketing level. I just don't care for it. Probably enough that if this were HERO's all-in-one product, I would have a reasonable likelihood of not buying it.

[BlackSword]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Purely personal comment - I'm glad they took it and they can keep it. The gaming world seemed pretty blah to me (though certainly beautifully done and with some good mechanics). That isn't a comment on the commerciality of it or whether HERO could have or should have been involved from a marketing level. I just don't care for it. Probably enough that if this were HERO's all-in-one product' date=' I would have a reasonable likelihood of not buying it.[/quote']

I thought there were some definite flaws, but that was part of the reason why I wanted to see it as a table-top product. If I decided to use it, I could fix those flaws and shape the world in the way that fits my table's gaming style better.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I thought there were some definite flaws' date=' but that was part of the reason why I wanted to see it as a table-top product. If I decided to use it, I could fix those flaws and shape the world in the way that fits my table's gaming style better.[/quote']

Good point. It doesn't help, re my perception, that I'm just not interested in a long-term horror/supers subgenre such as this.

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Problem is, City of Heroes already HAS a character creation system and a set of rules which precisely define how combat between characters works, and it aint the HERO system. So, if HERO got City of Heroes, they'd be faced with EITHER porting how things work in the video game and shoehorning it into the HERO system, OR writing a completely different set of rules. HERO wouldnt want CoH anyway, because altho it has name recogntiion, it s DOES NOT provide a rich, distrinct game world. Just a rather generic City with a bunch of Heroes, where the City is well-rendered, but desolate and bland, and Villians, who are repetitive and bland.

[BlackSword]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I will simply say I disagree, and as another company has the liscence the point is moot.

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Disagree with what? That its a bland game world? That the rules/chargen is totally differnet than HERO?