Herogames: The Sportscar Product

[Katherine]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

SNORT! This was a little rude in tone... but damn' date=' that is PERFECT. I'll rep you when I can.[/quote']

 

So you don't have a problem with genre book, eh?

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

But name me a single superhero game that IS a substantial rule system that ISN'T universal? HERO is MADE for Champions! It is the best system for running supers, bar none.

 

Completely off-topic and absolutely out of context response.

 

Marvel Super Heroes. DC Heroes. Aberrant.

 

All three are pretty substantial (especially when you count the Marvel and DC supplementary products that came out in their heyday).

[Katherine]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Off topic:Sorry about the freak out. Bad day at work

 

 

But that was a little rude, atlascott. I'm not attacking your idea.

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I thought it was funny. I don't think it was rude at all. I apologized because it clearly ofended you, which was DEFINITELY not its intent. I guess I need to not use humor. It evidently is not appreciated.

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Completely off-topic and absolutely out of context response.

 

Marvel Super Heroes. DC Heroes. Aberrant.

 

All three are pretty substantial (especially when you count the Marvel and DC supplementary products that came out in their heyday).

 

 

Not off topic--the gent was suggesting SAVAGE WORLDS as the basis for a Supers Game, which I think is a terrible idea. It's like throwing away a key to a door in favor of a crowbarl to accomplish its opening. HERO is PERFECT for Supers genre.

 

Do you think Marvel Super Heros, with its pretty red, yellow and green chart and non-numeric ability scores, was a substantial system? DC Heroes was TERRIBLE. Never read Aberrant, so I can't comment.

 

BTW, your criticism of my post is completely off topic and completely out of context.

[Katherine]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Aberrant was good but so hardwired into its home setting it was really hard to do anything else with it, since you were flounding in the dark. It also was hard to do anything other than straight Iron Age, high lethality games. Character also started to kind of look alike after awhile since you had a stat range of 1 to 5 with Megas in the same range (generally).

 

What do you mean by "substantial" System? The original Marvel was simple, but some also consider it highly elegant. One chart for the entire system and all.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

MSH is a classic superhero game, and did a wonderful job of immersing the players in the roles of their characters. Spiderman's Agility wasn't 50, Hulk's Strength wasn't 100, Spiderman had AMAZING Agility! the Hulk had UNEARTHLY Strength. The benchmarks deftly avoided nagging details like "Is Thor stronger than Hercules?" in favor of keeping the flow of the story moving nicely.

 

DC Heroes (2nd edition from Mayfair) did a wonderful job of using exponential values to illustrate varying levels of power. That way numeric inflation did not fill up the character sheet with values heading into the hundreds. Silver Age Superman's Strength (pre-Crisis) was listed at 50. In Champs terms that translated to roughly 250. Or about 50 Dice of effect. The action table kept most interactions to one die roll. I've seen much worse with regards to game mechanics that need to have Robin and Wonder Woman interacting in the same scene.

 

Remember, both MSH and DC Heroes were in print and supported until their respective comic houses pulled the licenses. Many of the concepts and rules in those games have gone on to find themselves in the best games being published today.

 

I haven't played Savage Worlds yet, so I can't address it's compatability with the Superhero genre (though if it works out similar to Brave New World, I'd say the mechanic is a bit buggy at the least).

[Sketchpad]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I've read through SW and it's not too bad ... I'd like to see a genre/campaign book sometime As far as super heroes go ... I can see where it could do it, but it'd be a bit light for my tastes (and I'm a MSH fan ). If Hero did things akin to GURPS like getting a good license and "Powering" it by Hero that it'd sell very well. Take this sample scenario, Hero gets the DC Comics license. Instead of requiring people to get the "Reverend FReD", the powers that be create a DC Comics RPG/Sourcebook that includes a healthy bit of the rules and a ton of campaign info. Could people who own the Reverened use it? Yup ... same rules. Could people run a DC Comics campaign w/o the Reverened? Yup ... but, like Sidekick, it'd be a bit limited. I would even suggest introducing advanced concepts in other books ... like a magic sourcebook that talks about VPPs and some of the odder advantage/disadvantage combos.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Meh' date=' that's nothing. Try making a sportcar with a PITCHFORK! [/quote']

Transformation Attack. I can get it really cheap if I buy it "only to make pitchforks into sports cars". Between that and some other lims, I could do it for a point...

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

That was uncalled for cheap shot. So I was "putting words in people's mouths"?

Well, I took some of it to be parody. BUt it was harsh. I think the genre books are pretty useful - though they do tend to be more useful the less you know the genre and vice-versa, I'll admit.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Aberrant was good but so hardwired into its home setting it was really hard to do anything else with it, since you were flounding in the dark. It also was hard to do anything other than straight Iron Age, high lethality games. Character also started to kind of look alike after awhile since you had a stat range of 1 to 5 with Megas in the same range (generally).

 

What do you mean by "substantial" System? The original Marvel was simple, but some also consider it highly elegant. One chart for the entire system and all.

I think a serious argument could be made that while MnM is based on d20, as the single system that it has become, it is neither universal nor well-suited to being made universal. But that's an argument in and of itself.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I was just thinking of something here that I don't think has been said, at least not recently.

 

There's a reason that I think that this whole issue of finding good ways to bring in new players is important and it's beyond commerciality and product survival. It goes to the heart of why this isn't just a "tinkerer's" game but also why it is in fact such a good tinkerer's game.

 

HERO's strength really is its simplicity, ultimately. It is a universal system that at its core has changed relatively little since 1st edition Champions. I think one could argue it's changed far less than D&D did on the way to being d20. The reason is that simplicity, and that the basics are just very simple. In other words, elegant. The internal consistency is extremely high. The attack roll/skill roll/PER roll and the inflicting of damage is all very consistent. It is much easier to use HERO in many respects than other systems. Let me give you a simple little example; in MnM, which as far as I can see follows d20 in this regard, you have to have some skills or talents as prerequisites to others. So you have to remember or look this up. Although HERO is understandably bloated, out of its attempt to address all things, enough by now that it does have some similar complexities here and there, overall it eschews such an approach. Instead, the toolkit is evident in the granular components. It's the reason we don't have a "Poison" power or if we did why that should at least be built on an underlying set of powers. We don't have to learn a whole new set of rules for different powers, a real problem from my view with MnM even if MnM is simpler in other respects as a limited, non-universal system.

 

That's what I found aggravating in MnM and SAS - so many little inconsistencies, so many things to learn for different situations.

 

Now to be fair, HERO has a good bit of this by this age. However, I contend - strongly - that I could throw out the large majority of those inconsistencies and nuances and still run a game, all the basic mechanics being enough to get me through. What little exposure I have to d20 seems to indicate a different experience, with a number of extra steps such as the old-fashioned saving throws, and many of those (such as saving throws) one cannot do without and easily play the game.

 

When I first played Champions, I simplified any aspects I didn't immediately get or disagreed with. And it made virtually no difference! The game played the same, so long as I kept the core constructs! With MnM, I had to rework a number of powers and make a bunch of changes to rebalance the system for the effect I desired - a more gradual/less knock-out approach to combat. There are optional rules stated which can accomodate this BUT THEY IGNORE THAT SO MANY POWERS AREN'T AFFECTED by these optional rules, powers such as Mental Illusions and Stun. So I had to really go all the way through and rework every attack power, due to the game's nature. With HERO, more easy, elegant solutions are immediately available (just reduce the cost of defenses or decrease dice of effect per cost across the board; in fact early on I rebalanced mental powers and it was super-easy and it even had the desired effect with no great study or delving through every mental power - all I had to do was a simple recost on all Mental dice of effect).

 

So the game is important from the perspective of a highly playable universal system which makes things easier on players. And I am wholly convinced, especially because of how I initially played the game, that this would translate wonderfully into an "all in one" game.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

HERO's strength really is its simplicity' date=' ultimately.[/quote']I was drinking when I read this, zornwil, and you almost ended up owing me a new keyboard over it!

 

:rofl:

 

The reason I find that statement so amusing is that the general perception of HERO is that it's overly complicated, and for someone to just say that "its strength is its simplicity"...well!

 

(shakes head)

 

 

 

Edit: While I'm not actually disagreeing with you or anything, I'm not sure "simplicity" is the word I would have chosen. "Consistency", perhaps, but simplicity?

[Katherine]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I think a serious argument could be made that while MnM is based on d20' date=' as the single system that it has become, it is neither universal nor well-suited to being made universal. But that's an argument in and of itself.[/quote']

 

Hm? I didn't say anything about M and M. I haven't had enough experience with it to have an opinion one or the other. I have seen soem fan brew mods to use it for Fantasy and Science fiction online though.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I was drinking when I read this, zornwil, and you almost ended up owing me a new keyboard over it!

 

:rofl:

 

The reason I find that statement so amusing is that the general perception of HERO is that it's overly complicated, and for someone to just say that "its strength is its simplicity"...well!

 

(shakes head)

 

 

 

Edit: While I'm not actually disagreeing with you or anything, I'm not sure "simplicity" is the word I would have chosen. "Consistency", perhaps, but simplicity?

Yeah, that's actually how I started thinking about the whole thing. That whole "complexity" thing is a sort of unfair red herring, even though I DO understand there's a rational basis for the thought.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Hm? I didn't say anything about M and M. I haven't had enough experience with it to have an opinion one or the other. I have seen soem fan brew mods to use it for Fantasy and Science fiction online though.

I was reacting to the comment "name me a single superhero game that IS a substantial rule system that ISN'T universal". I think MnM, which is a single superhero game, is a substantial rule system, but not universal.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

(snip) Edit: While I'm not actually disagreeing with you or anything' date=' I'm not sure "simplicity" is the word I would have chosen. "Consistency", perhaps, but [i']simplicity[/i]?

 

To come back to this comment...yes, simplicity.

 

I would have to do some work to back up my assertion and I have enough projects as is, but I strongly contend that if you simply stripped out the vast majority of nuance and some of the "oddball" rules that cover rather niche situations, you'd end up with a game very recognizably HERO and very easy to play. I contend that 1st edition Champions was easier than Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. I contend that Sidekick is of no "significant" difference from HERO 5ER and is simpler than d20.

 

I have a dream...no wait, make that a contention...

[Storn]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Savage Worlds is a generic system. A vague, imprecise generic system. Which would require alot of addition to get close to being able to handle a superoic game. Any superheroic game based on Savage Worlds would be a generic, kludgy frankenstein.

 

Wow. I SO disagree with you. It doesn't have to be kludgy, frankenstien and it certainly won't be generic. Some powers were NOT included precisely because of the World it is trying to create... not that the system couldn't handle it.

 

What it will be, won't be Champions... and that is okay. Everyone likes different systems. But don't make sweeping statements... make a persuasive arguement. Why is SW's NE a kludgy system in YOUR opinion?

 

As far as Champions being this perfect balanced system, bullpucky. Strength is too cheap. Because Strength is too cheap, we have ECs and Multipowers and that is kludgy. And I love Champs too.

 

Now, despite loving SW, you're right, Necessary Evil MIGHT be kludgy... but that won't be because of a bad system... it will be because of poor implementation of a good system. Anything can be piss-poor if done wrong. One thing I know for sure about NE, some of the art is okay.

 

The problem with Brave New World wasn't really the mechanics, but the terrible character creation that was SO limiting, SO constrained... that our group of Champions players, who loved the setting, abandoned the game and never went back.

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I was reacting to the comment "name me a single superhero game that IS a substantial rule system that ISN'T universal". I think MnM' date=' which is a single superhero game, is a substantial rule system, but not universal.[/quote']

 

I disagree. By definition, it is a d20 mod!

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I would have to do some work to back up my assertion and I have enough projects as is' date=' but I strongly contend that if you simply stripped out the vast majority of nuance and some of the "oddball" rules that cover rather niche situations, you'd end up with a game very recognizably HERO and very easy to play. I contend that 1st edition Champions was easier than Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. I contend that Sidekick is of no "significant" difference from HERO 5ER and is simpler than d20.[/quote']

 

 

You are absolutely, absolutely, 100% correct. HERO is easier to run that d20/D&D. The only thing that weighs people down is character creation, which can be streamlined per genre. You are never going to completely strip away the complexity in the Supers genre, but that is HERO's strength. But for Modern, Sci-Fi, Horror, etc., HERO is qucik, easy, and fun. THIS is why we need genre books with simplified character creation--as a gateway product. Once gamers play a superior system, and discover that they can REALLY customize their characters, then we'll have life-long HERO converts.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

I disagree. By definition' date=' it is a d20 mod![/quote']

Like I said in the post prior to that one, it's an arguable point. I think where one can argue it reasonably well is that MnM has been roundly criticized by many for not scaling up or down in nearly the range d20 otherwise can (even if we criticize d20 for not scaling well at the very high levels, it scales better than MnM I'd say) and many have argued that the way MnM was written is not applicable "backwards" to other genres or other d20 games - although this is a much more arguable point. I know many MnMers have steadfastly proclaimed that MnM is "the" system with which you can play any genre.

 

Personally I think that MnM doesn't scale at the lowest or highest levels very well at all.

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Wow. I SO disagree with you. It doesn't have to be kludgy, frankenstien and it certainly won't be generic. Some powers were NOT included precisely because of the World it is trying to create... not that the system couldn't handle it.

 

What it will be, won't be Champions... and that is okay. Everyone likes different systems. But don't make sweeping statements... make a persuasive arguement. Why is SW's NE a kludgy system in YOUR opinion?

 

As far as Champions being this perfect balanced system, bullpucky. Strength is too cheap. Because Strength is too cheap, we have ECs and Multipowers and that is kludgy. And I love Champs too.

 

Now, despite loving SW, you're right, Necessary Evil MIGHT be kludgy... but that won't be because of a bad system... it will be because of poor implementation of a good system. Anything can be piss-poor if done wrong. One thing I know for sure about NE, some of the art is okay.

 

The problem with Brave New World wasn't really the mechanics, but the terrible character creation that was SO limiting, SO constrained... that our group of Champions players, who loved the setting, abandoned the game and never went back.

ARGH, the STR debate has been invoked! Run and hide!

 

(FTR, STR is well-balanced for a game that simulates heroic fiction IMHO)

[zornwil]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

You are absolutely' date=' absolutely, 100% correct. HERO is easier to run that d20/D&D. The only thing that weighs people down is character creation, which can be streamlined per genre. You are never going to completely strip away the complexity in the Supers genre, but that is HERO's strength. But for Modern, Sci-Fi, Horror, etc., HERO is qucik, easy, and fun. THIS is why we need genre books with simplified character creation--as a gateway product. Once gamers play a superior system, and discover that they can REALLY customize their characters, then we'll have life-long HERO converts.[/quote']

Thanks. I think what gets confusing to people is that HERO can be as complicated as you want it to be. Humans tend to take something and complicate it, so a system that lets/encourages one do this can be problematic in that regard.

[atlascott]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

Wow. I SO disagree with you. It doesn't have to be kludgy, frankenstien and it certainly won't be generic. Some powers were NOT included precisely because of the World it is trying to create... not that the system couldn't handle it.

 

What it will be, won't be Champions... and that is okay. Everyone likes different systems. But don't make sweeping statements... make a persuasive arguement. Why is SW's NE a kludgy system in YOUR opinion?

 

As far as Champions being this perfect balanced system, bullpucky. Strength is too cheap. Because Strength is too cheap, we have ECs and Multipowers and that is kludgy. And I love Champs too.

 

Now, despite loving SW, you're right, Necessary Evil MIGHT be kludgy... but that won't be because of a bad system... it will be because of poor implementation of a good system. Anything can be piss-poor if done wrong. One thing I know for sure about NE, some of the art is okay.

 

The problem with Brave New World wasn't really the mechanics, but the terrible character creation that was SO limiting, SO constrained... that our group of Champions players, who loved the setting, abandoned the game and never went back.

 

 

Okay. There is nothing wrong with Savage Worlds per se. But converting Savage Worlds for supers? When you have a system tailor-made for supers in the HERO system? That's like buying a Chevette, replacing the engine, and welding on a bunch of seats to make a school bus, rather than just buying a school bus. Savage Worlds supers? Yes, THAT would be a welded-together Frankenstein system, and a stretch.

 

And, so its wouldnt be a poor implementation of a good system. It would be along the lines of using the wrong tool for the job. Savage Worlds is a good system for what it does well. The original Call of Cthulhu rules were great for what they did. Neither ought to be stretched, bent, contorted, etc. into a genre beyond their design and reasonably-extended capabilities. Especially when you have a system designed and conceived from the ground up to simulate the very genre that you want to work in.

 

It's like doing a brake job on a car, and rather than choosing a pneumatic lift and socket set and air ratchet, you prefer a bumper jack and an adjustable wrench. You CAN do it, but why?

 

For clarity's sake, Savage Worlds is a decent system--as long as you play it within its limitation. Dont try to make it something it isnt, and you're fine.

[Storn]

Re: Herogames: The Sportscar Product

 

A.S.

 

You are judging before seeing. You are making assumptions based upon false premises... 1) a Generic system cannot build towards a good supers game. 2) Champions is perfect.

 

Champions, IMO, is not a perfect emulation of superhero comics. I grant that it is close. The speed chart cause problems, I think Feng Shui shot clock emulates the panel/scene ebb and flow of comic book combat BETTER than Champions. I think M&M's damage emulates perfectly a 70s comic feel (but not Iron Age). I think STR is way too cheap and too many characters have paranormal defenses simply to stay effective in combat. I think END, turn radius, and inches is a leftover from wargaming roots of 1970s gaming theory.

 

I've been fairly close to what the NE crew is doing. It sounds pretty damn good to me. And I've got a real head on my shoulders for game systems and genre emulation. Granted, it might not be to your taste. I can accept that. But to dismiss it (before it is even out) outright is ridiculous.