Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

...And those rules are on p176-178 of 4ed. ...and p86-88 of _Champions_ (6th printing June 1988).

 

That's fine. I prefer 4th edition myself, and don't own either of the Star Hero books.

 

I don't have any of the others handy. I'll skip the references to other HERO publications. With the sole exception of one reference in Star Hero, all "breaking objects" write ups have been explictly or implicitly about smaller than planet size objects that were substantially thinner in at least one dimension.

 

No, the wall body table, both in 4th edition and in 5th edition, included a +2 per doubling of thickness. Just as we can calculate the Str of a character with 100 levels of growth, we can calculate the Body of a wall with the thickness of the Earth. The system scales. I've played in games where we did encounter walls that were thicker than planets, so I feel the wall Body chart is certainly useful here.

 

They also tend to assume attacks that are reasonably close in scale to the size of the area you want to affect.

 

There's absolutely zero evidence of this. Besides, who says a 100D6 energy blast isn't on a scale to vaporize planets? Now you're bitching about special effects, and you're out of the realm of system discussion. Damage is damage. Special effects are special effects. Remember to keep the two seperate.

 

The Star Hero reference is aberrant, and probably resulted in the invention of MegaScale to fix things.

 

You've got no evidence here either, but then, I didn't even reference Star Hero. The fact that you're unfamiliar with the development of 5th edition and Star Hero is evident.

 

Attempts to destroy the Earth using 200 Bod with Rules that do not cover the situation is no more or less than Rules Abuse.

 

Again, this is an unsupported statement.

 

It also breaks the internal logical consistency of the game.

 

Unsupported statement, and no, it doesn't. A character with a 100D6 punch would have a 500 Str. You only need about a 385 to actually lift the Earth.

 

However, the rules +can+ be used in a logically consistent manner to figure what it would take to destroy the earth.

 

I'm listening.

 

The earth masses 5.97x10^27 g and has a volume of 1.08 x 10^27 cm^3 and therefore has an average density of 5.52 g/cm^3. This is denser than Titanium (4.5 or 4.85), and about the same as ceramics such as Vandium Carbide (5.71). In HERO terms, the earth's average Body is probably best treated as a ceramic. Figuring out the earth's DEF is more difficult since all of its size, shape, and composition need to be taken into account in order to accurately model its DEF. Whatever the value is, it's likely to be _HIGH_ given the fact that the earth is a comparatively solid sphere of great size and composition 5.52x that of water.

 

I'm still looking for you to say something about Hero rules.

 

Even if we ignore the earth's DEF, there is an enormous amount of relatively hard mass that must be affected all at once if we want to destroy its physical structure. (It's _much_ easier to render the earth sterile rather than destroy it's structure.) A first pass is that every cm^3 of Earth requires 5.5 Body (28 AP) to destroy (11 Body, 55 AP, to vaporize) +above+ the amount needed to overcome the DEF of that cm^3 of Earth.

 

So, you're giving Earth 11 Body per hex. This is close to the 10 Body per hex that dirt is listed as having in 5th edition. Note that I gave the Earth 19 Body per hex, the same as metal, in my example.

 

Given Earth's likely DEF, The base attack per cm^3 is likely be quite a bit higher in order to get 5.5 Body through. Then to affect 1.08x10^27 cm^3, we need to multiply that base damage by 2^90 as well as pay for the Advantages necessary to affect such a large volume all at once.

 

We're not attacking the entire Earth at once, because we're using the doubling rules for blowing a hole in a surface. So we don't need to worry about the advantages.

 

Finally, the attack must be designed to not allow the the earth to dissipate energy by simply being knocked out of orbit. To inflict maximum structural damage, the attack must hold the earth in place rather than let it move.

 

There's nothing in the Hero rules to support this statement. Knockback happens after damage is dealt. End of story.

 

I'm not going to actually crunch the numbers, but the amount of Body required is at least 5.5*90= 495 if Earth had 0 DEF. Since Earth has a considerably higher DEF (probably greater than 20), the required AP cost to get that 495 Body through in one shot over that entire volume is _HUGE_.

 

I did crunch the numbers. The rules are already available for determining damage to large objects and surfaces. You have no support to show that one would have to purchase an Area Effect attack on that magnitude. You also have nothing to show why the Earth would have a Def above 20.

 

Show me, specifically, why my method wouldn't work.

 

 

Now, I must point out, that if someone were to roll less than the 104 Body needed (assuming the "armored Earth" in my example), say, if they rolled only 85, the Earth would not be destroyed. The Earth would not have a mere 19 Body remaining. The Earth (while missing a sizable chunk) would still be okay. The Earth does not have a set amount of Body by my calculations. Destroying a planet in this way is something that would have to be done in one big shot.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Really, it's a miracle that the earth has survived the multiple-megaton nuclear tests. They must have all rolled REAL low on their damage dice, because otherwise they'd have destroyed the earth in one hit.

 

(I'm in agreement, btw. There are times to apply the rules, and other times to overrule them. The '86 BOD to destroy the earth' is a blind application of a rule that, in my opinion, doesn't scale well enough. It just doesn't make SENSE. And in my games, I'm gonna ignore it big-time. )

 

That's because multi-megaton nukes aren't 20D6 RKAs. Steve Long likes his dice when it comes to military equipment. That's why we get 8D6 RKA Explosion tank guns (5th edition, page 326). That's why we get the 1 million D6 RKA that is the surface of the sun. Nukes should be in the 10-13D6 RKA range. That'll give you about 45 Body (for the 13D6) per hit. Now, if you say the Earth is mere stone, that's 6 Def, 13 Body per hex. That gives you 26 Body remaining. +2 Body doubles the depth of the hole, and +1 Body doubles the diameter. 26/3=9 (rounding up). So that's 9 doublings. That's a half-kilometer deep (and wide) hole in the ground. That's pretty big, but it ain't world destroying. You can then tweak the rules as much as you want so you get a blast crater that exactly mirrors the effects of a real nuke.

 

You can bomb the Earth with that stuff all day. To really blow it up, you've got to do the 86 Body IN ONE SHOT. That's the thing that everyone here seems to be forgetting.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

There's absolutely zero evidence of this. Besides' date=' who says a 100D6 energy blast [i']isn't[/i] on a scale to vaporize planets? Now you're bitching about special effects, and you're out of the realm of system discussion. Damage is damage. Special effects are special effects. Remember to keep the two seperate.

Well, there is the point that the 100d6 EB can't actually hit more than one thing unless it is spread, so in a way it isn't all that "big."

 

Unsupported statement' date=' and no, it doesn't. A character with a 100D6 punch would have a 500 Str. You only need about a 385 to actually [i']lift[/i] the Earth.

Lift the Earth in it's own gravity! Woo! Go Brick!

 

So' date=' you're giving Earth 11 Body per hex. This is close to the 10 Body per hex that dirt is listed as having in 5th edition. Note that I gave the Earth [i']19[/i] Body per hex, the same as metal, in my example.

So you liked my 1"=10,000km MegaScaled attack?

 

There's nothing in the Hero rules to support this statement. Knockback happens after damage is dealt. End of story.

So we knock all the debris into a different orbit! And too bad there's no equal reaction in Hero. Heh.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Well' date=' there is the point that the 100d6 EB can't actually hit more than one thing unless it is spread, so in a way it isn't all that "big."[/quote']

 

Ah, but the Earth is a multi-hex object. Like a large bridge that has 27 Body.

 

Lift the Earth in it's own gravity! Woo! Go Brick!

 

Or lifting it as it's falling towards a black hole or something.

 

So you liked my 1"=10,000km MegaScaled attack?

 

Yeah, those are fun. But I want to do it the hard way, with just sheer dice.

 

So we knock all the debris into a different orbit! And too bad there's no equal reaction in Hero. Heh.

 

Yup. That debris is sailing.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Bah! Falling back on that old one! That's the cheap way. We're looking for stuff that will put sand in the GM's va**na. Heh.

 

...and seriously, thank you for the mediation.

No worries, hope it helps.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Really, it's a miracle that the earth has survived the multiple-megaton nuclear tests. They must have all rolled REAL low on their damage dice, because otherwise they'd have destroyed the earth in one hit.

 

(I'm in agreement, btw. There are times to apply the rules, and other times to overrule them. The '86 BOD to destroy the earth' is a blind application of a rule that, in my opinion, doesn't scale well enough. It just doesn't make SENSE. And in my games, I'm gonna ignore it big-time. )

I wouldn't ignore a Megascaled version of such, but a single blow with 86 BOD, indeed, I'd ignore (at least in terms of the purposes we're talking about, I mean).

 

However, does a megaton blast really do that much damage? I think it's more of a Megascaled explosion and the direct KA probably does 50d6 or such which destroys pretty much everything. Then there's a linked non-additive but damaging in its own right firestorm. Then there's NND radiation KA.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

(snip) I've played in games where we did encounter walls that were thicker than planets' date=' so I feel the wall Body chart is certainly useful here.[/quote']

 

And you retain the title Munchkin King!

 

Though I'll add when the PCs were in the nexus where the creature which created the Necronomicon inhabited there were something like 80d6 attacks being thrown around. But there were NO walls - anywhere! Just space, a void, with a distant murmering/laughing sound which could sometimes get louder...depending on where Nyarlathotep was!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

However' date=' does a megaton blast really do that much damage? I think it's more of a Megascaled explosion and the direct KA probably does 50d6 or such which destroys pretty much everything. Then there's a linked non-additive but damaging in its own right firestorm. Then there's NND radiation KA.[/quote']

We mustn't forget the monumental Flash (which, if you're using the new rules, lasts about 3 seconds ).

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

And you retain the title Munchkin King!

 

Though I'll add when the PCs were in the nexus where the creature which created the Necronomicon inhabited there were something like 80d6 attacks being thrown around. But there were NO walls - anywhere! Just space, a void, with a distant murmering/laughing sound which could sometimes get louder...depending on where Nyarlathotep was!

 

We once encountered the Midgard Serpent. Through a screw-up in Ragnarok, he'd managed to be the only thing left alive in Asgard. So one of our characters plucked Gungnir out of his snout (he was sleeping at the bottom of the ocean the time), and took off out of the water. It woke up, opened it's mouth, and the sea drained. So we took off at full speed (Mach 50+) back to the Rainbow Bridge. Then suddenly it was in front of us. We couldn't outrun it, because the damn thing had enough stretching to reach anywhere on the planet. Needless to say, we tried to avoid that combat.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

We once encountered the Midgard Serpent. Through a screw-up in Ragnarok' date=' he'd managed to be the only thing left alive in Asgard. So one of our characters plucked Gungnir out of his snout (he was sleeping at the bottom of the ocean the time), and took off out of the water. It woke up, opened it's mouth, and the sea drained. So we took off at full speed (Mach 50+) back to the Rainbow Bridge. Then suddenly it was in front of us. We couldn't outrun it, because the damn thing [i']had enough stretching to reach anywhere on the planet[/i]. Needless to say, we tried to avoid that combat.

so what was the MIDGARD serpent doing in ASGARD?

Just splitting a mythological hair or two for the frell of it

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

so what was the MIDGARD serpent doing in ASGARD?

Just splitting a mythological hair or two for the fuck of it

 

'Cause it, like, umm, surrounds all the worlds, or something.

 

Maybe it was there for Ragnarok. I don't know, it's 2 in the morning. Actually, that game was several years ago, and I'm not sure if I'm getting the details exactly right. The point is, he's a big-ass snake.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

FYI, Ben prefers the "f" word be somewhat restrained in use, to such as f**k or fcuk. Perhaps silly, and I know this invites a whole separate argument, but I'm not going there, just stating that the mods have a preference here as to how far obscenity goes.

 

And to Champsguy, when it comes to high-powered games, I know whose is bigger...and it's not mine, I'll admit. But lemming can tell some pretty amazing stories about his old games, they were pretty extreme in some respects.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

'Cause it, like, umm, surrounds all the worlds, or something.

 

Maybe it was there for Ragnarok. I don't know, it's 2 in the morning. Actually, that game was several years ago, and I'm not sure if I'm getting the details exactly right. The point is, he's a big-ass snake.

 

Just hacking on ya a bit...no worries, and certainly no offence intended...

if you're not up on your Epic Norse settings, Midgard is the name for Earth, home of the humans, seperated from Asgard, home of the Aesir Gods, by Bifrost, the rainbow bridge.

but YMMV, depending on campaign setting, always

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

...We couldn't outrun it' date=' because the damn thing [i']had enough stretching to reach anywhere on the planet[/i]. Needless to say, we tried to avoid that combat.

Dang! Now that's a lot of stretching! Something like 20 million points worth, I think? Unless, of course, MegaScale were used. MegaScaled Stretching. Wow. That's a strange one to think about.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

FYI, Ben prefers the "f" word be somewhat restrained in use, to such as f**k or fcuk. Perhaps silly, and I know this invites a whole separate argument, but I'm not going there, just stating that the mods have a preference here as to how far obscenity goes.

 

And to Champsguy, when it comes to high-powered games, I know whose is bigger...and it's not mine, I'll admit. But lemming can tell some pretty amazing stories about his old games, they were pretty extreme in some respects.

 

OK, my bad...

*note to self... 86 the harder profanity*

I usually self edit, but I was posting quickly... editing post now

can't change the quote box tho

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Dang! Now that's a lot of stretching! Something like 20 million points worth' date=' I think? Unless, of course, MegaScale were used. MegaScaled Stretching. Wow. That's a strange one to think about.[/quote']

I like it! probably in a multipower so it can still get its head a little closer to its opponents than "somewhere within the same 1000 km hex as the players"

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

I like it! probably in a multipower so it can still get its head a little closer to its opponents than "somewhere within the same 1000 km hex as the players"

Yeah, I was trying to puzzle that one out. Just give it an Area of Effect attack (1 hex, MegaScale 1"=1000km), and Telescopic on all its senses, and....

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Just hacking on ya a bit...no worries, and certainly no offence intended...

if you're not up on your Epic Norse settings, Midgard is the name for Earth, home of the humans, seperated from Asgard, home of the Aesir Gods, by Bifrost, the rainbow bridge.

but YMMV, depending on campaign setting, always

 

Yeah, I remembered which was which. Just, for whatever reason, the serpent was in Asgard (surrounding Asgard, actually) at the time. I don't remember why.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Dang! Now that's a lot of stretching! Something like 20 million points worth' date=' I think? Unless, of course, MegaScale were used. MegaScaled Stretching. Wow. That's a strange one to think about.[/quote']

 

It was mostly just the extra reach you get from Growth, I believe. And this was before megascale.

 

When it opened it's mouth, and the sea began rushing in, the GM declared it to have like 150 Str for purposes of "grabbing" (as in, catching the PC in the suction) the character who was trying to fly out of the water at the time. Fortunately, he's a Daxamite.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Incidentally, that Stretching would probably make the thing pretty hard for opponents to hit. I usually use a House Rule where you can hit a creature with Stretching (or reach through Growth) when it makes an attack at you if you use a held action. Of course, whether you hit the creature or its weapon, and what that means, depends on whether they use a focus, their Special Effects, etc.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

And to Champsguy, when it comes to high-powered games, I know whose is bigger...and it's not mine, I'll admit. But lemming can tell some pretty amazing stories about his old games, they were pretty extreme in some respects.

 

Not all our games are that high powered. We like a little variety in our supers games, and sometimes, variety says it's time for cosmic-level adventures.

 

I've also played characters with 8D6 attacks, though honestly, I didn't have quite as much fun in those.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

It was mostly just the extra reach you get from Growth' date=' I believe. And this was before megascale.[/quote']

Dang! Growth does double the reach for each 15 points, huh? I had forgotten that. Makes Stretching seem pretty pale in comparison. I guess that's one of the reasons I never bought the whole, "Don't use Growth for characters that are permenently bigger than 2m. Buy all the powers and Disadvantages seperately," thing. The reach makes that next to impossible very quickly.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Really, it's a miracle that the earth has survived the multiple-megaton nuclear tests. They must have all rolled REAL low on their damage dice, because otherwise they'd have destroyed the earth in one hit.

 

 

They weren't targeting the Earth. They were targeting some portion of the Earth's surface.

 

SEMANTICS SAVES THE DAY!

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

FYI, this has always been my take on the subject, but it's NOT any more official than the "by the book" +1 Body = X2 mass rule which is part of cannon. Go check my rather old Planetbusters thread in the star hero forum to see some more discussion on the topic. ignoring the wall body table and using the body/mass doubling makes the Earth some 80 something body. If its addressed as a single target, it becomes kinda patheticly easy to destroy the earth. You run into the same problem with a lot of other items as well. if you look at the sample vechiles in Fred, you'll find that they tend to stick pretty close to the "appropriate" body for their mass. Which results in things like an Aircraft carrier with 28 body or so.

This is a problem we HAVE addressed and bypassed in our games... it violates suspension of disbelief in a major way

How did you address it?

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

That's fine. I prefer 4th edition myself, and don't own either of the Star Hero books.

 

 

 

No, the wall body table, both in 4th edition and in 5th edition, included a +2 per doubling of thickness. Just as we can calculate the Str of a character with 100 levels of growth, we can calculate the Body of a wall with the thickness of the Earth. The system scales. I've played in games where we did encounter walls that were thicker than planets, so I feel the wall Body chart is certainly useful here.

 

 

 

There's absolutely zero evidence of this. Besides, who says a 100D6 energy blast isn't on a scale to vaporize planets? Now you're bitching about special effects, and you're out of the realm of system discussion. Damage is damage. Special effects are special effects. Remember to keep the two seperate.

 

 

 

You've got no evidence here either, but then, I didn't even reference Star Hero. The fact that you're unfamiliar with the development of 5th edition and Star Hero is evident.

 

 

 

Again, this is an unsupported statement.

 

 

 

Unsupported statement, and no, it doesn't. A character with a 100D6 punch would have a 500 Str. You only need about a 385 to actually lift the Earth.

 

 

 

I'm listening.

 

 

 

I'm still looking for you to say something about Hero rules.

 

 

 

So, you're giving Earth 11 Body per hex. This is close to the 10 Body per hex that dirt is listed as having in 5th edition. Note that I gave the Earth 19 Body per hex, the same as metal, in my example.

 

 

 

We're not attacking the entire Earth at once, because we're using the doubling rules for blowing a hole in a surface. So we don't need to worry about the advantages.

 

 

 

There's nothing in the Hero rules to support this statement. Knockback happens after damage is dealt. End of story.

 

 

 

I did crunch the numbers. The rules are already available for determining damage to large objects and surfaces. You have no support to show that one would have to purchase an Area Effect attack on that magnitude. You also have nothing to show why the Earth would have a Def above 20.

 

Show me, specifically, why my method wouldn't work.

 

 

Now, I must point out, that if someone were to roll less than the 104 Body needed (assuming the "armored Earth" in my example), say, if they rolled only 85, the Earth would not be destroyed. The Earth would not have a mere 19 Body remaining. The Earth (while missing a sizable chunk) would still be okay. The Earth does not have a set amount of Body by my calculations. Destroying a planet in this way is something that would have to be done in one big shot.

Very well put!